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itsibitzi commented on CoverDrop: A secure messaging system for newsreader apps   github.com/guardian/cover... · Posted by u/andyjohnson0
agotterer · 3 months ago
Many news organizations use https://securedrop.org/. How is CoverDrop different/better?

Supported outlets: https://securedrop.org/directory/

itsibitzi · 3 months ago
SecureDrop is great and we still will be using it at the Guardian for the foreseeable future. At the very least just to support sources who want to blow the whistle but don't use our app.

In terms of how it's different. We attain anonymity without requiring a user to install Tor Browser, which we think is significant. Building this feature into our news app lowers the barrier of entry for non-technical sources quite significantly, and we think helps them achieve good OPSEC basically by default.

CoverDrop (aka Secure Messaging) has a few limitations right now that we'll be working to overcome in the next few months. Primarily that we don't support document upload due to the fact that our protocol only sends a few KB per day. Right now a journalist has the option to pivot the user onto another platform e.g. Signal. This is already better since the journalist can assess the quality of, and risks posted to, the source before giving their Signal number.

The current plan to improve this within the CoverDrop system is to allow a journalist to assess the risk posted to a source and, if they deem it acceptable, send them a invite link to upload documents which the client will encrypt with their keys before sending. This affects anonymity of course so we'll be investigating ways in which we can do this while doing our best to keep the source anonymous. There are a few techniques we could use here, for example making the document drop look like an encrypted email attachment being sent to a GMail account. I like this[1] paper as an example of an approach we could take that is censorship resistant.

Another limitation is that the anonymity of our system is largely predicated on the large install base of our app. In the UK/US/AU we have a pretty large install base so the anonymity properties provided by the protocol are nice, but if another smaller news agency were to pick up our tech as it stands right now then they wouldn't have this property. That said, in practice just having our plausibly deniable storage approach is a pretty big improvement over other whistleblowing approaches (PGP, Tor based, etc), even if you're the only person in the set of possible sources using the app.

[1] https://petsymposium.org/popets/2022/popets-2022-0068.pdf

itsibitzi commented on CoverDrop: A secure messaging system for newsreader apps   github.com/guardian/cover... · Posted by u/andyjohnson0
irq-1 · 3 months ago
Any plans for spam? Does the app have a device id or account, so you can disable them?

If the message is encrypted for the reporter and they're the only ones who can read it, what does the organization do to manage this? Are passwords for private keys saved with the org, or are the keys saved with multiple accounts? What do you do when someone forgets their password?

Cool app; just encryption management when it comes to human users must have lots of trade-offs.

itsibitzi · 3 months ago
On spam:

We’ve got some basic filtering for full on DoS type attacks already.

The difficulty here is that a user can produce a reasonable amount of spam from a spread of IP addresses which would be disruptive to our journalist users but below threshold to be considered a DoS attack.

It’s tricky because we can’t have anything that could link a given message to a given user as that would break anonymity.

We’ve got some ideas with anonymous credentials from app attentions for the more long term. E.g. if you’re expected to submit 1 message an hour from your queue you can request 24 single use tokens from the API by performing an attestation that you’re running a genuine app. You then spend these as you send messages. We don’t have a full spec for this right now such that it can be fully anonymous but that’s the general idea.

There’s also some possible spam detection we can do in the journalist GUI which we’re interested in exploring. Right now the spam control is quite basic (muting) but the message rate is low due to the threshold mixer anyways so not so bad.

On key management:

Each journalist has an encrypted vault which requires a key derived from a password. If this password is lost and the journalist has no backup then it’s game over. We need to regenerate their identity in the key hierarchy as if they were a new user and messages they’ve not seen are lost, there is no way to pick up those sources again.

We have some plans on using MLS as an inter-journalist protocol which should enable having multiple actual humans per journalist/desk listed in the app. That would depend on the journalists agreeing to have their vault be shared of course. Once multiple humans are backing a single vault then the risk of password loss becomes smaller as if one journalist loses their password the other journalist should be able to share their back messages to them.

itsibitzi commented on CoverDrop: A secure messaging system for newsreader apps   github.com/guardian/cover... · Posted by u/andyjohnson0
mdhb · 3 months ago
Yeah besides that bit of feedback, I think the project is brilliant and actually has a lot of nice parts to it that go way beyond the technical aspects but really show a sophisticated understanding of what you actually want out of a real life somebody might end up seriously harmed if this goes wrong covert communications system so kudos to you and the team on that!

Edit: you might want to consider putting that warning about work devices in the app itself right before someone pushes forward with making potentially life changing decisions and doesn’t rely on them reading an FAQ. I see you already have an onboarding flow in place. It would be really simple to make that the first screen of it.

itsibitzi · 3 months ago
I agree, it should certainly be front-and-centre, either the landing page or the on-boarding carousel.

I'll see if we can get something together before the next app release. Thanks again!

itsibitzi commented on CoverDrop: A secure messaging system for newsreader apps   github.com/guardian/cover... · Posted by u/andyjohnson0
mdhb · 3 months ago
I love this as an idea, it reminds me a lot of when the CIA were caught making all those obscure websites like Star Wars fan sites etc that were really designed as covert communication systems.

The guardian doesn’t call it that explicitly but that’s exactly what they have built here and I think the cover of a news app is brilliant in a lot of ways.

The only thing I would mention on top here as well is if you are planning to leak something using this app I still wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it on any device that could be investigated.

For example a work provided phone. While having the guardian app is itself in no way incriminating if you were to play out the scenario of an internal leak investigation at an organisation that has just ended up on the front pages of the guardian I think you could end up with a very short list by simply asking:

1. WHO had access to that information to begin with?

2. WHO had that app on their phone or the App Store shows it as previously downloaded or they wouldn’t make their phone available for inspection.

So if you’re in a scenario where you’re leaking something only known to a small group and / or your device can be inspected by someone relevant… I’d continue to strongly recommend making contact via a device that isn’t tied to you like your partner or someone you trust.

Remember, the ACTUAL goal here is to defeat the investigation and the best thing you can possibly do here is to not stand out from the crowd of suspects any more than anyone else.

There’s a very short link however between this app and the information you provided turning up in the guardian specifically that might not actually give you the cover you think you have (beyond the technical parts that they took care of which look brilliant for the record). But the next best thing by far I think you could do to help with that larger goal is to use a device not linked to you and that can’t be inspected to begin with.

I just wanted to point that out because it wasn’t called out in the threat model and I could realistically see people getting caught that way.

itsibitzi · 3 months ago
Tech lead on the project here.

I would certainly recommend that readers not use a work phone, not only for the reasons you've stated but also that a lot of work devices use mobile device management software which is functionally spyware. To your point, dealing with having a very small anonymity set is tricky regardless of the technology used.

We do go to great lengths to make usage of the app to blow the whistle plausibly deniable. Data is segmented to "public" and "secret" repositories, where any secret data is stored within a fixed-sized/encrypted vault protected by a KDF technique that was developed by one of the team in Cambridge (https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/1792.pdf)

But of course, all this could be for nothing if you've just got corporate spyware on your device.

This is certainly something we've talked about internally but I've double checked the in-app FAQs and I think we could be more clear about recommending users not use on a work device, especially with MDM. We'll get that updated as soon as possible. Thanks!

-- edit

I should add that we do some basic detection devices that have been rooted or are in debug mode and issue a warning to the user before they continue. I'd be interested in what we can do to detect MDM software but I fear it might become a cat-and-mouse game so it's preferable that folks not use their work devices at all.

itsibitzi commented on The Guardian Launches Secure Messaging   theguardian.com/gnm-press... · Posted by u/mdhb
k310 · 3 months ago
Annual Subscription $130 USD

Premium Annual Subscription $95 USD.

Interesting.

Per the Apple App Store.

itsibitzi · 3 months ago
Project lead here, the Secure Messaging part of the app is accessible without a subscription through the main menu.
itsibitzi commented on Show HN: I rewrote my Mac Electron app in Rust   desktopdocs.com/?v=2025... · Posted by u/katrinarodri
platevoltage · 3 months ago
I did the same thing with one of my projects. I built a simple webcam viewer that is optimized for USB microscopes as I couldn't find anything out there for this purpose. Basically all of the functionality was implemented in the renderer. As I was planning for App Store submission, I realized that a 500mb webcam viewer might not be the best thing. I decided to port it to Tauri V2 and got it down to about 15mb.
itsibitzi · 3 months ago
Out of interest, how did you stream the video data to the frontend?
itsibitzi commented on Real Chilling Effects   donmoynihan.substack.com/... · Posted by u/ZeroGravitas
nonrandomstring · 6 months ago
If even half of this is true, I wonder what the future of HN is? THis forum is backed by Ycombinator, a US based "investment" company. Do they have plans to relocate to friendlier climes?
itsibitzi · 6 months ago
The elite Silicon Valley venture capitalist class has made it pretty clear which side they're on.
itsibitzi commented on Working with The Associated Press to provide fresh results for the Gemini app   blog.google/products/news... · Posted by u/alexrustic
onlyrealcuzzo · 7 months ago
Gemini is the leading model with the lowest hallucination rate: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-ai-models-with-the-l...

I would expect that number to go down from 1.3% to below 1% over the course of the year.

There's always a chance what you're reading is wrong - due to purposeful deception, negligence, or accident.

Realistically, hardly anything is 100% accurate besides math.

itsibitzi · 7 months ago
I think people really don't understand the effort, care and risk that goes into producing quality reporting.

I work with investigative reporters on stories that take many months to produce. Every time we receive a leak there is an extensive process of proving public interest before we can even start looking at the material. Once we can see it in we have to be extremely careful with everything we note down to make sure that our work isn't seen as prejudiced if legal discovery happens. We're constantly going back and forth with our editorial legal team to make sure what we're saying is fair and accurate. And in the end, the people we're reporting are given a chance to refute any of the facts we're about to present. Any mistakes can result in legal action that can ruin the lives of reporters and shut down companies.

Now, imagine I were to go to a reporter who has spent 6 months working on a story about, for example, a high profile celebrity sexually assaulted multiple women, how the royal family hides their wealth and are exempt from laws, or how multinational corporations use legal loopholes to avoid paying taxes, and said, "oh, 1% of people reading this will likely be given some totally made up details".

Given that stories often have more than a million impressions, this would lead tens of thousands of people with potentially libellous "hallucinations".

It simply should not be allowed.

LLMs have their place, for sure, but presenting the news is not it.

itsibitzi commented on Working with The Associated Press to provide fresh results for the Gemini app   blog.google/products/news... · Posted by u/alexrustic
itsibitzi · 7 months ago
As someone who works in the news industry I find it pretty sad that we've just capitulated to big tech on this one. There are countless examples of AI summaries getting things catastrophically wrong, but I guess Google has long since decided that pushing AI was more important than accurate or relevant results, as can also be seen with their search results that simply omit parts of your query.

I can only hope this data is being incorporated in some way that makes hallucinations less likely.

itsibitzi commented on UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Manhattan   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/mupuff1234
itsibitzi · 9 months ago
I think we can be pretty confident that he wasn't shot because an AI product wasn't accurate.

u/itsibitzi

KarmaCake day131January 8, 2019View Original