I was recently at an events center, that has replaced all of their vending machines with machines that require me to install an app(!) to purchase a product. Literally, didn't take cash or credit - just via app.
Per the marketing on the side, this is meant to be for my benefit in order to earn "points" and get offered "deals." I don't think I have to tell you that I did NOT install the app, and just walked further to buy one from a vendor.
There is a massive arrogance problem within tech. Everyone thinks their product should be the center of everyone else's universe. The best products are invisible/get out of the way.
The arrogance is not that they think they're the center of the universe. It is much worse.
I hear a lot of talk about how much pain you can inflict on people and how to extract the most value from that. Last I heard it was from a couple of media types discussing radio commercials. No care for their actual product for the end user - but an evaluation of how much people would suffer before tuning away.
Actual professional pride and care is sooo last century.
Sadly. It's like how modern bridges can be built with less materials than old ones, now that we can calculate precisely the minimum we use pretty much exactly that. Things have gone exactly the same way with consumers over the past 30 years, businesses have learned exactly how badly they can treat you and step up to that line at every opportunity.
Those two discussing it probably felt a great deal of professional pride they can get the volume to within a tenth of a decibel of the maximum tolerable volume before someone changes the channel
I think of a friend who worked at a bank, and a colleage decided to show him "how the world really worked"
He got out a big printout and started showing the different demographics and their habits.
"<ethnic> woman, with a little bit of college" - she will get a credit card, charge it up to the limit, then make the minimum payment... forever.
"<ethnic> man, no college" - he will get a credit card, charge it up to the limit, might make one payment, never make another payment ever.
Then he went on to say, corporations will slant their advertising to target demographic #1 with credit card advertisements. They will make their advertisements disappear from view from demographic #2.
I kind of wonder if the whole vending system is slanted around these kinds of things. Sports fan, uses phone indiscriminately for everything, sell him an impulse snickers bar with an app, then load him down with ads for payday loans.
Nothing against sports fans, but your comment made me wonder if all the grocery stores hopping on the “game day” wave for advertising campaigns are doing so bc their data shows that sports fans are easier to sell to.
In Japan they are also pushing an app for vending machines, but you immediately get three free drinks (then nothing after). It got me to sign up anyway.
We had a card for earning points across multiple brands of supermarkets and other kinds of consumer shops.
One of those chains, Rewe, decided they didn't want to share the points with the others and went ahead, creating their own mobile app for consumer points.
The remaining chains, not wanting to stay behind, decided to do exactly the same.
Now almost every chain has withdrawn from the card program, moved into their own little app, and expect every customer to install all their apps.
I refuse to follow along, and get into interesting discussions, because employees naturally following orders that they have to nag everyone, cannot understand that I rather pay more than installing and giving my data to every chain in exchange for a few euros in discounts.
I recently went into a McDonald's for the first time in years to just order a drink. The guy at the register informed me I couldn't place an order at the front and had to use the kiosk. The kiosk was full of dark patterns to try to get me to install their app. It took me around 5 mins between navigating the kiosk menus and waiting for my number to get called just to give me a medium drink. Something that would have been 20 seconds at the counter. I'll be avoiding McDonald's at all cost from here on out.
It's not tech related. Previously, they all did this with various cards. People were walking around with a giant stack of loyalty or store credit cards in their wallet with a rubber band wrapped around it.
There is a store I shop at where every purchase, they ask every single customer if they "have a phone number with them", which they can type in on the point of sale device. I've waited behind people trying to remember their old phone number.
Lumen Field in Seattle just installed some Amazon Just Walk Out vendors this year. I'm happy to report you don't need to be logged into Amazon or have an app. I double clicked my phone to swipe my Apple Pay before I walked in, grabbed a beer and walked out.
The big issue I have with this experience is that you don't get a clear charge price before you leave. So you have to check a page either some minutes or hours later and hope that the total is correct. Like the article said, I don't love the idea of being charged for 3 overpriced bottles of water when I only took two. I'd rather just settle my transactions in the moment than try to remember what my total was and dispute things later from memory on the occasional times it's wrong.
At the very least the is how it should be done. Having to download and install an app, then login, then connect payment info, etc... Sounds like such a pain I wouldn't even bother.
I agree with the arrogance. I am just so tired of poor software consuming hours to troubleshoot. technology was supposed to makes things easier, not turn every interaction into a chore or a debug session.
> You place all your items on the white shelf with some space between them. Although they were clearly designed to be a self-checkout experience, the stadium had a staff member rearrange your items, then for about 30 seconds the kiosk would be thinking. After, it would pop up all items on the menu, and the staff member would have to tap to confirm what each item was.
Maybe we're just calling all forms of automation and computer vision "AI" these days because it's sexy. Anyway: any automation that requires a human staff member to intervene to complete every run is not automation: It's just adding unnecessary technology and making the process worse. Imagine if each grocery store self-checkout required a human staff member to scan items, re-arrange things, and confirm checkout.
> Maybe we're just calling all forms of automation and computer vision "AI" these days because it's sexy.
Funny thing is, at first it was the other way around! 'Computer Vision' has always been a sub-field of AI, but the term was more widely used by academics during a previous AI winter as a way to avoid the tainted 'AI' label.
They do that at Circle K[0] today using the same tech from Mashgin. It's meant to be a self-checkout, but you literally have one employee standing and watching this one checkout (sometimes 2-3, but usually 1-2). It's not always accurate, requires some hand-holding at times, and slows down the already slow lines at Circle K. It's a bit faster than the article implies and does not require a staff member, but still slower than a human would be.
Meanwhile over at QuikTrip, there's one person checking out two people at a time. Suffice to say, if both stores are available, I will always choose the QT.
I use circle-K because it's like 3 blocks from me. The self-checkout seems to work fine. I buy alcohol on the rare occasion I drink, and even then the cashier just steps to the side for one moment to check my ID, presses a button, and then goes back to what he's doing with someone/something else. It never overcharges me, at least, and it always seems to pick things up in just a couple moments. I suppose I take the time to space them out a bit, but I always seem to have a perfectly reasonable experience.
That being said, I see the same one-person-two-registers thing at 7-eleven, and it's very, very fast.
> any automation that requires a human staff member to intervene to complete every run is not automation
Not strictly true. Barcode readers are used by humans and are definitely automation. The ironic part though is that the automation going on here is literally object classification, which humans are good at.
The play may be to collect data and make their system better.
I came here to paste that quote. It sounds like a disaster of poor HCI around not-ready-for-prime-time tech implementation. That's not even a great PoC demo to get funding, much less deploy into production.
Maybe they were emboldened because many companies still can't even do decades-old UPC barcode scanner self-checkouts well?
The closest self-checkout to working reasonably well I see regularly would be at Whole Foods Market, at least just using the low-tech UPC and scale. I only have a few nits about it.
(Though, within the last week, the usual duct-taped-on off-the-shelf hand scanner apparently saw the wrong barcode on the front of the product label (yes, some brand did that), which wedged the station, and the employee who came over seemed like they might think I was trying to defraud the store. I've coded for a few of those scanners before, and they provide a mix of automagical easy high-value behavior and major pitfalls. There are a few kinds of interfaces, and a large fleet of settings, and you really have to wrestle the device to the ground, to make every scenario bulletproof. If the integrator wasn't careful, for some of them, you can even reprogram or brick them with an in-band barcode, and disabling this feature is buried among the numerous settings.)
The worst self-checkout I'm currently exposed to is the dumpster-fire of a major chain, which goes out of its way to fill the UI with garbage, and then doesn't do even basic sensing and state flow right. They really need to look at WFM design, and then go even further in that direction, and get the state model right. While making sure that no one's bonus is tied to garbage and dark patterns on the screen.
(Also, for return customers who nope right out of the self-checkout headache, and go to the human checkout, or get directed to it by the attendant who's glaring at all the self-checkouts, they need clean their CC terminal keypad that's visibly caked with crud, like maybe it hasn't been disinfected in a year. Especially since they mandate repeated use of it when it should default to working with just a card tap/swipe, for a high-traffic location for many sick people.)
> Imagine if each grocery store self-checkout required a human staff member to scan items, re-arrange things, and confirm checkout.
They always have at least one person going between each self-checkout kiosk helping confused and upset customers. Meanwhile, 1 traditional checkout lane is open with a long line. Self checkout is great to use if you know how and have a handful of items, but it sucks with a full cart due to space constraints and the bag scales being finicky.
I wish. The Wal-Mart near me no longer has staffed checkouts between 6am (opening time) and 8am. That's two hours in the morning of robots-only. I don't know about in the evenings.
traditional checkout lane is open with a long line.
I use the traditional check-out line whenever I can because where I live, the self-check line is almost always longer. It's not hard to keep an eye on the last person in the self-check line when you go to a real register to see which is faster.
I'm not a fireman on call. I'm OK spending an extra 45 seconds in a traditional line to keep a low-skilled human being employed.
Australia has had self-checkout in supermarkets and larger retailers for nearly 2 decades now.
Usually you will have a single staff member responsible for 4-10 checkouts to override the machine when your product doesn't register a weight, or you move items off the scale too quickly, and it wants them to check it.
It generally just works and is a lot quicker if you're just scanning a few items; surprised it hasn't really taken off in the US.
Most of the issues these days are when they introduce new features like less tolerance on the weight (sometimes adjusting already scanned items trips an error) or auto-scanning fruit and vegetables.
> The person in front of me bought two items and saw she got charged for three. Since there were no paper receipts, she took a photo of the machine before going to the guest services to complain. I missed ten minutes of the game getting water.
I wish payment processors / consumer protection would have a significant penalty for sloppy overcharges. I've had to deal with sloppy overcharges like this (one for over $1,000) and you lose a lot of time and the outcome is just 'oppsies, my bad'. There's very little repercussion for sloppy overcharges so it's easy for them to perpetuate.
Back in the olden times overcharging like that would be dealt with the same way as theft would. I'm not entirely convinced it's the wrong way to go about things. It's how the concept of a bakers dozen came to be. Better give everyone 13 in a dozen, just in case you ever miscount.
Once you enter the stadium or a concert, you become a part of the captive market. There exists an incentive to limit your choices and extract as much value out of you as possible. The limit to that is mostly defined by the organizer decency and the amount of pushback.
The experience is usually better at the smaller venues that aren't a part of strong fandom and more sensitive to the customer sentiment: indie cinemas, comedy clubs, etc.
I was at a ballpark and they had self checkout everywhere, except they were usually manned by staff. So I picked out my item, put it on the scanner, and then the staff member would select the checkout button on the screen. Literally that was all they did. And then the screen asked for a tip and the person stared at me expectantly like they had just carried my luggage up two flights of stairs.
And that wasn't really AI, it was more like automation.
Was hoping the article would be about stadium experiences like the announcer, jumbotron, etc. all being AI-driven. When I judge the experience of gameday, concessions are like third on that list. Disappointed with the content.
This isn't just enshittification, it's hostile software [0]. When you dominate a space, for example being the only vendor in the stadium, you can impose whatever you want on customers. There are no options, you can tell customers to select between yes or ok, this is the only way to pay for hotdogs now. As an LA resident, the rate at which we implement these broken and invasive services is alarming.
People overestimate computer vision and other AI capabilities. A few days ago I had a relative struggle to open some fancy cosmetics box. Another relative decided it would be helpful to photograph it and send it to ChatGPT for help. Coincidentally, not that long ago I also heard someone telling about the recent AI advances on the radio and talking how they send photos of things and ChatGPT helps them figure out how to use them instead of reading those boring manuals.
I guess that's what marketing does to the people. But also it doesn't take many failures and broken expectations until those people decide that it's not worth the effort and stop using these tools entirely.
Readit News
Per the marketing on the side, this is meant to be for my benefit in order to earn "points" and get offered "deals." I don't think I have to tell you that I did NOT install the app, and just walked further to buy one from a vendor.
There is a massive arrogance problem within tech. Everyone thinks their product should be the center of everyone else's universe. The best products are invisible/get out of the way.
I hear a lot of talk about how much pain you can inflict on people and how to extract the most value from that. Last I heard it was from a couple of media types discussing radio commercials. No care for their actual product for the end user - but an evaluation of how much people would suffer before tuning away.
Actual professional pride and care is sooo last century.
Relevant Simpsons clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdMjqcjMVTc
He got out a big printout and started showing the different demographics and their habits.
"<ethnic> woman, with a little bit of college" - she will get a credit card, charge it up to the limit, then make the minimum payment... forever.
"<ethnic> man, no college" - he will get a credit card, charge it up to the limit, might make one payment, never make another payment ever.
Then he went on to say, corporations will slant their advertising to target demographic #1 with credit card advertisements. They will make their advertisements disappear from view from demographic #2.
I kind of wonder if the whole vending system is slanted around these kinds of things. Sports fan, uses phone indiscriminately for everything, sell him an impulse snickers bar with an app, then load him down with ads for payday loans.
I saw this at a Simon mall recently.
I took a picture of the machine. Across the front of the door is a banner which reads:
I'm not going to jump through hoops like a circus animal for a Mr. Pibb. I used the water fountain instead.Deleted Comment
We had a card for earning points across multiple brands of supermarkets and other kinds of consumer shops.
One of those chains, Rewe, decided they didn't want to share the points with the others and went ahead, creating their own mobile app for consumer points.
The remaining chains, not wanting to stay behind, decided to do exactly the same.
Now almost every chain has withdrawn from the card program, moved into their own little app, and expect every customer to install all their apps.
I refuse to follow along, and get into interesting discussions, because employees naturally following orders that they have to nag everyone, cannot understand that I rather pay more than installing and giving my data to every chain in exchange for a few euros in discounts.
There is a store I shop at where every purchase, they ask every single customer if they "have a phone number with them", which they can type in on the point of sale device. I've waited behind people trying to remember their old phone number.
It was fantastic.
Maybe we're just calling all forms of automation and computer vision "AI" these days because it's sexy. Anyway: any automation that requires a human staff member to intervene to complete every run is not automation: It's just adding unnecessary technology and making the process worse. Imagine if each grocery store self-checkout required a human staff member to scan items, re-arrange things, and confirm checkout.
Funny thing is, at first it was the other way around! 'Computer Vision' has always been a sub-field of AI, but the term was more widely used by academics during a previous AI winter as a way to avoid the tainted 'AI' label.
Meanwhile over at QuikTrip, there's one person checking out two people at a time. Suffice to say, if both stores are available, I will always choose the QT.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c1kbWAttus
That being said, I see the same one-person-two-registers thing at 7-eleven, and it's very, very fast.
Oh it's not JUST that, I'm sure it's also a data-harvesting scheme, because what isn't these days?
Not strictly true. Barcode readers are used by humans and are definitely automation. The ironic part though is that the automation going on here is literally object classification, which humans are good at.
The play may be to collect data and make their system better.
Maybe they were emboldened because many companies still can't even do decades-old UPC barcode scanner self-checkouts well?
The closest self-checkout to working reasonably well I see regularly would be at Whole Foods Market, at least just using the low-tech UPC and scale. I only have a few nits about it.
(Though, within the last week, the usual duct-taped-on off-the-shelf hand scanner apparently saw the wrong barcode on the front of the product label (yes, some brand did that), which wedged the station, and the employee who came over seemed like they might think I was trying to defraud the store. I've coded for a few of those scanners before, and they provide a mix of automagical easy high-value behavior and major pitfalls. There are a few kinds of interfaces, and a large fleet of settings, and you really have to wrestle the device to the ground, to make every scenario bulletproof. If the integrator wasn't careful, for some of them, you can even reprogram or brick them with an in-band barcode, and disabling this feature is buried among the numerous settings.)
The worst self-checkout I'm currently exposed to is the dumpster-fire of a major chain, which goes out of its way to fill the UI with garbage, and then doesn't do even basic sensing and state flow right. They really need to look at WFM design, and then go even further in that direction, and get the state model right. While making sure that no one's bonus is tied to garbage and dark patterns on the screen.
(Also, for return customers who nope right out of the self-checkout headache, and go to the human checkout, or get directed to it by the attendant who's glaring at all the self-checkouts, they need clean their CC terminal keypad that's visibly caked with crud, like maybe it hasn't been disinfected in a year. Especially since they mandate repeated use of it when it should default to working with just a card tap/swipe, for a high-traffic location for many sick people.)
They always have at least one person going between each self-checkout kiosk helping confused and upset customers. Meanwhile, 1 traditional checkout lane is open with a long line. Self checkout is great to use if you know how and have a handful of items, but it sucks with a full cart due to space constraints and the bag scales being finicky.
I wish. The Wal-Mart near me no longer has staffed checkouts between 6am (opening time) and 8am. That's two hours in the morning of robots-only. I don't know about in the evenings.
traditional checkout lane is open with a long line.
I use the traditional check-out line whenever I can because where I live, the self-check line is almost always longer. It's not hard to keep an eye on the last person in the self-check line when you go to a real register to see which is faster.
I'm not a fireman on call. I'm OK spending an extra 45 seconds in a traditional line to keep a low-skilled human being employed.
Usually you will have a single staff member responsible for 4-10 checkouts to override the machine when your product doesn't register a weight, or you move items off the scale too quickly, and it wants them to check it.
It generally just works and is a lot quicker if you're just scanning a few items; surprised it hasn't really taken off in the US.
Most of the issues these days are when they introduce new features like less tolerance on the weight (sometimes adjusting already scanned items trips an error) or auto-scanning fruit and vegetables.
I wish payment processors / consumer protection would have a significant penalty for sloppy overcharges. I've had to deal with sloppy overcharges like this (one for over $1,000) and you lose a lot of time and the outcome is just 'oppsies, my bad'. There's very little repercussion for sloppy overcharges so it's easy for them to perpetuate.
The experience is usually better at the smaller venues that aren't a part of strong fandom and more sensitive to the customer sentiment: indie cinemas, comedy clubs, etc.
Was hoping the article would be about stadium experiences like the announcer, jumbotron, etc. all being AI-driven. When I judge the experience of gameday, concessions are like third on that list. Disappointed with the content.
[0]: https://idiallo.com/blog/hostile-not-enshittification
I guess that's what marketing does to the people. But also it doesn't take many failures and broken expectations until those people decide that it's not worth the effort and stop using these tools entirely.