Maybe a little side-track, but I recently discovered this brilliant little Finnish folk song called "Ievan Polkka". There are dozens of versions on youtube; I can't understand a word of any of them, but I can't stop listening:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAyWN9ba9J8 - One of my favorite things on the internet, a South African guy remixing an blind Turkish street performer playing a Finnish song.
Thank you for this post. I needed motivation to get up and put more time into something I'm working on that is large and draining, and this short video reminded me why it is important.
I think Scandinavians my age know "ei sa peittaa". Basically "do not cover". When bored on the toilet before phones, reading whatever labels was the norm, and they often had a Finnish version. This was the label on the radiator.
I knew there were some ¨'s sprinkled in, but felt it was safer my way than to botch it up even more, heh. (Could've googled it, but that's less fun).
I've visited Finland a lot the later years due to my company starting a fulfillment center there. It was quite interesting how well I could get by with my Norwegian most places. Either because signage also was in Swedish, words often similar enough (except those that are very very far off, lol), or I even could speak Norwegian to some coworkers that then replied in Swedish (and not all of them even being Finns with Swedish as their native language).
My mother is Finnish, and my parents traveled and mover around a lot during our younger years - but we did live in Finland from I was age 3 to 7, so Finnish is the language I first learned to speak fluently.
Picking it up again once a year wasn't hard (usually when we'd get relatives visiting us, or the other way around), but around the time I became a teenager, I started speaking less - for no other reason than that I traveled less to relatives during the summers. These days I can read some, and listen to some conversation, but speaking is very hard - probably 25 years since I spoke it fluently. It is a shame, as I have to speak English with my grandparents, aunts, etc. - but language is def one of those "use it or lose it" things.
With that said, for the English speaking people - you'd be surprised how much Norwegian / Swedish / Danish (Germanic language) you can understand, with the amount of shared, or very similar words, the languages have.
Same way for us Scandinavians and Dutch. Can't really understand much when the language is spoken, but when reading some text, there's a lot of structure and words you can understand.
I'm natively british, but I live in the southern part of Sweden for the past 11 years, and I can only concur to what TrackerFF is saying.
There's a handful of false friends (Fart, Slut) but probably 10-15% of the scandinavian languages still have influence on modern english.
I say "still have root" because; if you weren't aware: the first common tongue variant of English was a proto-germanic language from the "Angles" of Denmark. "Angle"-ish, if you would.
Its more strange how the scandiavian dialects have a broader application in Scots english (Barn/Baen for child, Kirk for Church for example) - my family are Scottish so that was a weird surprise.
Regardless, if you're going to try to learn a Scandinavian Language: Stick to Norwegiean or Stockholm-Swedish. The Danish and Southern Swedish dialect (Skånsk) is difficult to unpick word from word and will leave you bewildered. But you will understand more than you might originally expect to if you visit Stockholm and have a simple pocket dictionary. :D
I played the game Noita where the enemies have inscrutable names like "Haulikkohiisi." I was amused to learn that is just the Finnish for "Shotgun Goblin", and that was the general pattern of names
This is something I love about Finnish as an outsider: instead of loaning words they create beautifully poetic compounds. I have lost my list but remember comet being "tail-star", capital being "head-city", and world being "ground-air".
"Head city" is just the literal meaning of "capital city".
"Maailma", on the other hand, is an old word, and its original meaning was more like "earth and sky". "Ilma" used to mean things like sky, heaven, air, and weather, but Finnic languages eventually started using the Indo-European loan "taivas" for the first two.
That can go wrong too. They (the guardians of language, prim and proper) tried to make "swap file" be "heittovaihtotiedosto", literally "thrown replacement record collection". Thrown as in the things being swapped are in the air while being exchanged, not placed somewhere temporarily. In the real world, lots of computer-related terminology ended up being just transliterated from English directly, along the lines of procedure -> proseduuri, server -> serveri, icon -> ikoni.
After living in Finland a few years we got a dog, so I was often holding a big bone in my hand and saying the Finnish word for it, "luu". Something felt so correct and ancient about it, like luu is - and could only ever have been - the word that means the concept of a bone. I looked it up and luu is Proto-Finno-Ugric, and one of the oldest words to stick around in the Finnish language.
I have great respect for that first person to shake mammoth bone in another person's face saying "luu". They nailed it.
My best friend George (Gyuri) from college is Hungarian and I've picked up a few words (mostly cuss words) from him. One of the hardest parts for an English speaker to learn about Hungarian and Finnish is that the length of a sound (how long you articulate it) is significant. Finnish uses doubled letters for this, Hungarian uses accents (a vs á, o vs ó, etc.) for vowels and doubled letters for consonants. I've gotten to where I can hear the difference when listening to George speak Hungarian but it took some effort.
> One of the hardest parts for an English speaker to learn about Hungarian and Finnish is that the length of a sound (how long you articulate it) is significant
I'm not a native English speaker, but I'm pretty sure it exists in English as well.
Absolutely, think "lick" vs "leak". I think the author means Hungarian maybe uses very similar looking letters to denote this (ie "lik" and "lík").
In Hungarian also every vowel comes in pairs of short-long: a-á (what vs high),
e-é (ever vs eight), "o-ó" (moss vs most), "u-ú" (put vs you), "ö-ő" (fur vs ... well long version has no English equivalent I think but German does: schön).
This is an important sign when someone who is not Italian speaks Italian. The double consonant, for example in the word bello/a, indicates a longer “l” sound, but English speakers in particular do not hear the longer sound and therefore pronounce it as belo/a. Or, when they are told about the longer sound, they pronounce it in a caricatured way as bellllo/a.
Vowel length is generally not semantically significant in English. Vowels are lengthened before voiced consonants, for example, and we don’t even think about it. Compare “cab” and “cap”. As noted here, some Hungarian vowels, such as ’a’ and ‘e’ do change sound when lengthened, but some don’t. Those are the ones that are harder to distinguish for speakers of languages like English.
I've yet to hear a non-Finn get doubled consonants right, ever. Kukkakaali. Ikkuna.
Somewhat easier but still challenging is getting the wovels in the right place. They're just different, and the barrier is as hard going the other way but Finns have more practice in speaking English than the other way around. It's similar to the idea that it's very very hard to learn a tonal language if you grew with non-tonal languages.
I have a Finnish friend here in Switzerland who believes Finnish is impossible to learn as an adult. I think because of the conjugations. She has a son and she is divorced from a Spanish man who remarried a Greek woman. Her son speaks German (Swiss school), French (Swiss school), English (Swiss school and all the other children at school), Spanish (father), Greek (step-mother and step-siblings), and because she makes a point of speaking Finnish with him at home, Finnish.
He has no problem with any of the languages including Finnish but she's still convinced that she needs to force it on him before he's an adult so that he can... well, I'm not sure why.
I have a(n English) friend who moved to Finland as an adult (in her 30s) and is now fluent in Finnish (and English, just the two languages for her) so it is certainly possible.
I have very jealous of your friend’s multi-lingual son though!
> He has no problem with any of the languages including Finnish but she's still convinced that she needs to force it on him before he's an adult so that he can... well, I'm not sure why.
Seeing your kid speak your native language is a delight regardless of the circumstances.
In the end, all cultures in existence are very sticky and want to survive and replicate. The ones that don't didn't make it into the modern age.
For an English speaker it would be difficult. It is a highly synthetic language (meaning the markers which tell you which parts of the sentence are doing what), compared to English which is an analytical language (meaning there are extra words like prepositions which tell you which part of the sentence is doing what). This is why Finnish (and other Uralic languages’ words) look so long to us, because where we in English would use prepositions and word order to denote object, subject etc., much of that is expressed in Finnish through suffixes.
Perhaps for a speaker of another synthetic language like Polish it might be easier to learn Finnish as their brain might would already have the wiring but even then, as the article notes Finnish is not an Indo-European language so it is further removed still.
The pessimist says: Finnish is too hard for an adult to learn, mission impossible.
The realist says: With 10 years of hard work, it's doable.
The optimist says: I can do it in 5 years.
Myself I was an optimist and I kind of did it in 5 years, but it was tight. However, after having spoken it daily for 25 more years I get more and more pessimistic: There are several aspects I will not master in this life.
English speaker living in Finland (15+ years) checking in. It’s doable but very difficult. I haven’t succeeded and of all the foreigners I know - only a handful have learnt the language to the point of being able to function. Most of them Germans - interestingly.
IMO the hardest parts of learning a new language as an adult is
a) convincing yourself its worth the effort: almost every time an adult runs into a confusing element of a new language, they find themselves calculating how many people in the world speak this language, probability they don't speak english and likelihood of running into this person and circumstance, and it's easy to justify giving up and moving on
b) avoiding forcing it into the framework of your first language: if you have one distinctly favored language already, it's very hard not to try shove the new language you are learning into the former's mold, and this can be counterproductive in learning most languages that don't share an ancestor with your favored one.
a) is greatly mitigated by forcing yourself to be in said context by living in a place prioritizing that language. b) is greatly mitigated by already being bilingual+ with languages from distinct origins (eg: mandarin chinese and english) before learning a new one, so you can place the new language on a spectrum with the ones you already know instead of confined by the rules of just one.
Well.. I didn't really get proficient in English until I was in my thirties. I learned another language around that time as well, though not to full fluency (only because the option of continuing went away). And absorbing and understanding of German too.. The actual point is only that I remember how it felt - how listening and other kind of input molded my brain, relatively quickly (and sounds and words started echoing around in my brain). Now, thirty years later, it feels like my brain is much stiffer and everything takes much longer, when it comes to injecting a language (fortunately everything else still works as it should).
So, 'adult' isn't really right in my opinion / experience - I know many people who were adults and could absorb another language relatively easily.
What seems to happen is that it does change for the worse as the decades go by. But it's not as simple as adult vs child. And it's not by orders of magnitude in any case, it's more linear than that.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ievan+polkka
If you can only do three:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqthspSKZV8 - Acapella from Finland, circa 1990s
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX5OARoNFpg - Modern Russia, I sincerely hope none of these folks get drafted
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAyWN9ba9J8 - One of my favorite things on the internet, a South African guy remixing an blind Turkish street performer playing a Finnish song.
Delightful stuff.
Turns out you can play it with an angry face.
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I've visited Finland a lot the later years due to my company starting a fulfillment center there. It was quite interesting how well I could get by with my Norwegian most places. Either because signage also was in Swedish, words often similar enough (except those that are very very far off, lol), or I even could speak Norwegian to some coworkers that then replied in Swedish (and not all of them even being Finns with Swedish as their native language).
For a brief attempt at a Finnish webshop I also happen to know "Osta Nyt" (Buy now) and "Verkkokauppa" (Online store).
So you know a bit more Finnish than you thought!
Picking it up again once a year wasn't hard (usually when we'd get relatives visiting us, or the other way around), but around the time I became a teenager, I started speaking less - for no other reason than that I traveled less to relatives during the summers. These days I can read some, and listen to some conversation, but speaking is very hard - probably 25 years since I spoke it fluently. It is a shame, as I have to speak English with my grandparents, aunts, etc. - but language is def one of those "use it or lose it" things.
With that said, for the English speaking people - you'd be surprised how much Norwegian / Swedish / Danish (Germanic language) you can understand, with the amount of shared, or very similar words, the languages have.
Same way for us Scandinavians and Dutch. Can't really understand much when the language is spoken, but when reading some text, there's a lot of structure and words you can understand.
There's a handful of false friends (Fart, Slut) but probably 10-15% of the scandinavian languages still have influence on modern english.
I say "still have root" because; if you weren't aware: the first common tongue variant of English was a proto-germanic language from the "Angles" of Denmark. "Angle"-ish, if you would.
Its more strange how the scandiavian dialects have a broader application in Scots english (Barn/Baen for child, Kirk for Church for example) - my family are Scottish so that was a weird surprise.
Regardless, if you're going to try to learn a Scandinavian Language: Stick to Norwegiean or Stockholm-Swedish. The Danish and Southern Swedish dialect (Skånsk) is difficult to unpick word from word and will leave you bewildered. But you will understand more than you might originally expect to if you visit Stockholm and have a simple pocket dictionary. :D
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukko
From Swedish "tändare".
- Stevari (holy temple guardian) is "mall cop" (slang)
From STV (Suomen Teollisuuden Vartiointi) security firm.
"Maailma", on the other hand, is an old word, and its original meaning was more like "earth and sky". "Ilma" used to mean things like sky, heaven, air, and weather, but Finnic languages eventually started using the Indo-European loan "taivas" for the first two.
I have great respect for that first person to shake mammoth bone in another person's face saying "luu". They nailed it.
luu = bone
kuu = Moon
suu = mouth
muu = other
You can practically imagine the apes in the first act of the movie “2001” coming up with these words to describe their environment.
(The monolith could be a “muu muu”, the Other Other, to distinguish it from the basic “muu” of the other tribe.)
I'm not a native English speaker, but I'm pretty sure it exists in English as well.
In Hungarian also every vowel comes in pairs of short-long: a-á (what vs high), e-é (ever vs eight), "o-ó" (moss vs most), "u-ú" (put vs you), "ö-ő" (fur vs ... well long version has no English equivalent I think but German does: schön).
Somewhat easier but still challenging is getting the wovels in the right place. They're just different, and the barrier is as hard going the other way but Finns have more practice in speaking English than the other way around. It's similar to the idea that it's very very hard to learn a tonal language if you grew with non-tonal languages.
He has no problem with any of the languages including Finnish but she's still convinced that she needs to force it on him before he's an adult so that he can... well, I'm not sure why.
I have very jealous of your friend’s multi-lingual son though!
Seeing your kid speak your native language is a delight regardless of the circumstances.
In the end, all cultures in existence are very sticky and want to survive and replicate. The ones that don't didn't make it into the modern age.
Perhaps for a speaker of another synthetic language like Polish it might be easier to learn Finnish as their brain might would already have the wiring but even then, as the article notes Finnish is not an Indo-European language so it is further removed still.
The pessimist says: Finnish is too hard for an adult to learn, mission impossible.
The realist says: With 10 years of hard work, it's doable.
The optimist says: I can do it in 5 years.
Myself I was an optimist and I kind of did it in 5 years, but it was tight. However, after having spoken it daily for 25 more years I get more and more pessimistic: There are several aspects I will not master in this life.
a) convincing yourself its worth the effort: almost every time an adult runs into a confusing element of a new language, they find themselves calculating how many people in the world speak this language, probability they don't speak english and likelihood of running into this person and circumstance, and it's easy to justify giving up and moving on
b) avoiding forcing it into the framework of your first language: if you have one distinctly favored language already, it's very hard not to try shove the new language you are learning into the former's mold, and this can be counterproductive in learning most languages that don't share an ancestor with your favored one.
a) is greatly mitigated by forcing yourself to be in said context by living in a place prioritizing that language. b) is greatly mitigated by already being bilingual+ with languages from distinct origins (eg: mandarin chinese and english) before learning a new one, so you can place the new language on a spectrum with the ones you already know instead of confined by the rules of just one.
An adult studying a language is spending like maybe 1% of the time studying that a child learning a language spends.
So, 'adult' isn't really right in my opinion / experience - I know many people who were adults and could absorb another language relatively easily.
What seems to happen is that it does change for the worse as the decades go by. But it's not as simple as adult vs child. And it's not by orders of magnitude in any case, it's more linear than that.
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Growing up bi-(or even multi)-lingual is always a good opportunity when it comes to speaking, especially here in Switzerland.