I suspect a mass of support for this is a reaction to Brexit, I don't think that's unfair: the generational gap in that vote was huge, with older voters who no longer work (and, to be blunt, have fewer years left to feel the consequences) voted for Brexit while younger generations with entire careers ahead of them voted against.
I can see the argument that 16 year olds are too young to make an informed choice but I've also met a great many people of all ages who are too ill informed to make a choice too. Fundamental weakness of democracy, I suppose.
There's a real problem with those with no "skin in the game" -- living in large paid off houses (bought for a song in the 1970s), with defined benefit pensions and the triple lock -- voting for wacky options and suffering no consequences. This is going to get worse and worse. Reducing the voting age redresses it a very tiny amount.
> There's a real problem with those with no "skin in the game" -- living in large paid off houses (bought for a song in the 1970s), with defined benefit
16yo may not have a lot of skin in the game, but giving them more of a voice seems like a good idea. I like the idea of gradually increasing voting rights over time.
Lowering the voting age to 16 makes sense on paper. Many people at that age work, pay taxes, and take on real responsibilities. But let’s be honest, parties don’t push changes like this unless they believe it gives them an electoral edge
* They are restricted in what jobs they do, and are supposed to be either in education or doing apprenticeships or similar
* They cannot drive until they are 17
* They cannot purchase alcohol, knives and many other things
* They cannot get married
* They cannot get tattoos
Its very much that they think it will favour them. I think it might very well not do so - while they will net vote for Labour its not by a huge margin and its changing. I wonder whether the government are overly influenced by the huge margin they enjoy with privileged people in that age group - i.e. the ones they meet.
To me at least, the argument that young people face great restrictions (even if many of those restrictions might be intended for their benefit) doesn't justify not giving them a voice, or a seat at the table.
"So if democracy is so great, and voting rights are so important, why don't you let us vote on anything that matters to us?"
"So taxation without representation... that's like me, right?"
"So if universal suffrage is important, are people like me included in the universe?"
"So we can (in the UK) potentially join the army or navy at 16, and possibly die in dangerous training or even fighting in a war, but we don't get to vote?"
pensioners are legally adults but , they don't work thus don't pay taxes, they dont drive some of them, and getting tattoos is kinda weird for them. why do they get to vote
In most jurisdictions (especially at a national level) the changes that elected officials enact usually don't affect the population for at least another 12-16 months after voters cast their ballots.
Not in the UK, particularly England. With the requirement to remain in education/do an apprenticeship/perform a mixture of work and part time education (in England), combined with our the personal allowance, very very few 16-18 year olds pay any tax or national insurance.
According to ChatGPT, data from the ONS in 2021 shows the average weekly earnings for 16-17 year olds was about £160, well below the personal allowance and NI thresholds
I think you're right in that Labour believe this, but that Labour are spectacularly wrong about it and have just signed their own death warrant. Young people want hope, and they definitely don't feel like Blue Labour could give that to them.
Very wishful thinking, but could this be an impetus for quality political education at a younger age? E.g. how to reason about issues, think critically, fact check, verify past outcomes, etc. That could have positive effects on all age groups.
I'm sure I don't speak for everyone, but people consider me reasonably worldly and reasonably intelligent but at 18 when I was first given the power to vote I voted for:
* UKIP for EU Parliament
* Lib Dems for UK Parliament
I don't necessarily regret the LibDem one, but seeing how absolutely hoodwinked I was by UKIP has left me really jaded.
I saw them misrepresent issues and put things to the EU parliament for debate that they would then go back to the UK media and scream about how there was a topic up for debate that went against british values: despite them being the ones to propose it!
I saw the leader of the party get put in charge of the fisheries committee and then proceed to tell the UK public that the EU was taking control of our waters and fishing... when he was the man in charge.
I saw grandstanding and burning of our political capital inside the EU parliament for soundbites.
and I only saw this: because I was not afraid of digging into the truth of things; something I was not prepared or willing to do as a teenager, as that sounded like the kind of mundane schoolwork I was attempting to avoid - I was much more interested in how I felt about particular people, and UKIP gave me the warm fuzzies about my country and a convenient scapegoat for the decline in living standards in my lifetime.
Many eons ago I took a "General Studies" A level that had a solid chunk of political education, just googled and was disappointed to find out it doesn't exist any more.
Even still, I'd say younger people are still more politically aware (mostly via history classes that are still present in their memory) than most people of the current voting age.
Genuinely curious, does education really matter? No one man has the time nor intellect to effectively evaluate all the facts. Most of the lies today are lies of omission / framing. Details left out, stories not covered, etc.
The only rational position is figuring out how to scale trust. Ironically enough, the historic ways of doing that (race, religion, nation) are all more or less “evil” in modern society.
After going through US public schooling and then reading actual source material from various topics covered many years later, it’s hard to see it as anything other than propaganda. “History was written by the victors” doesn’t magically exclude our current regime.
Yeah. Let's face it: more realistically, they want to cut pensions without getting thrown out of parliament. And getting every 16 year old in the UK a free PS5 (is it still PS5? I guess maybe PS6) on their birthday is far cheaper than pensions ...
I suspect this will be pretty much the end of the Labour and Conservative parties, which is clearly a good thing - neither is fit for purpose any more. The new left-leaning party announced by Zarah Sultana, and the far right arseholes in Reform are likely to take the vast majority of teenage voters - both because they will at least offer some kind of hope to people who otherwise have none.
I like UK labour and the current gov in particular but I have to note this and it happened in other countries too. If the ruling party is left, it has predominantly younger votes and if it can get away with lowering voting age it will do it. And the cool thing is, this is irreversible because no one will dare to raise the age afterwards
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I can see the argument that 16 year olds are too young to make an informed choice but I've also met a great many people of all ages who are too ill informed to make a choice too. Fundamental weakness of democracy, I suppose.
16yo may not have a lot of skin in the game, but giving them more of a voice seems like a good idea. I like the idea of gradually increasing voting rights over time.
I love comments like these. There could never be consequences to an obviously -in-current-self-interest move like this.
“Yes let them vote, an impressionable and easily influenced demographic that my hyper partisan side controls could never be manipulated against me!!”
* They are restricted in what jobs they do, and are supposed to be either in education or doing apprenticeships or similar
* They cannot drive until they are 17
* They cannot purchase alcohol, knives and many other things
* They cannot get married
* They cannot get tattoos
Its very much that they think it will favour them. I think it might very well not do so - while they will net vote for Labour its not by a huge margin and its changing. I wonder whether the government are overly influenced by the huge margin they enjoy with privileged people in that age group - i.e. the ones they meet.
"So if democracy is so great, and voting rights are so important, why don't you let us vote on anything that matters to us?"
"So taxation without representation... that's like me, right?"
"So if universal suffrage is important, are people like me included in the universe?"
"So we can (in the UK) potentially join the army or navy at 16, and possibly die in dangerous training or even fighting in a war, but we don't get to vote?"
- Couldn't you argue parties don't promote changes like this to protect their interests too?
Not in the UK, particularly England. With the requirement to remain in education/do an apprenticeship/perform a mixture of work and part time education (in England), combined with our the personal allowance, very very few 16-18 year olds pay any tax or national insurance.
According to ChatGPT, data from the ONS in 2021 shows the average weekly earnings for 16-17 year olds was about £160, well below the personal allowance and NI thresholds
I'm sure I don't speak for everyone, but people consider me reasonably worldly and reasonably intelligent but at 18 when I was first given the power to vote I voted for:
* UKIP for EU Parliament
* Lib Dems for UK Parliament
I don't necessarily regret the LibDem one, but seeing how absolutely hoodwinked I was by UKIP has left me really jaded.
I saw them misrepresent issues and put things to the EU parliament for debate that they would then go back to the UK media and scream about how there was a topic up for debate that went against british values: despite them being the ones to propose it!
I saw the leader of the party get put in charge of the fisheries committee and then proceed to tell the UK public that the EU was taking control of our waters and fishing... when he was the man in charge.
I saw grandstanding and burning of our political capital inside the EU parliament for soundbites.
and I only saw this: because I was not afraid of digging into the truth of things; something I was not prepared or willing to do as a teenager, as that sounded like the kind of mundane schoolwork I was attempting to avoid - I was much more interested in how I felt about particular people, and UKIP gave me the warm fuzzies about my country and a convenient scapegoat for the decline in living standards in my lifetime.
Even still, I'd say younger people are still more politically aware (mostly via history classes that are still present in their memory) than most people of the current voting age.
probably not
The only rational position is figuring out how to scale trust. Ironically enough, the historic ways of doing that (race, religion, nation) are all more or less “evil” in modern society.
After going through US public schooling and then reading actual source material from various topics covered many years later, it’s hard to see it as anything other than propaganda. “History was written by the victors” doesn’t magically exclude our current regime.
Dead Comment