It always fascinated me that particular behaviors, like herding, can be so ingrained to a particular breed of dog. The dog is no longer in a setting where this is crucial to their survival, yet the urge exists. I do wonder for how many generations the behaviors would last, assuming the dominant genes were not surpressed. That is of course assuming genes are the factor that drives it. It's almost as if environment has little to do with the behavior in this case, other than having opportunity to exhibit the behavior.
I was flabbergasted when I learned that herding dogs have the instinct to bite behind the legs, even of humans. It is a pressure tactic to make the herded animal go in a certain direction.
To me this is an (unpopular) argument against the tabula rasa theory of humans.
If such a complex behaviour can be congenital, who knows what behaviours are congenital in humans.
Dogs, in the US, are no longer an asset to use as a tool, such as herding, but merely a companion in the vast majority of cases. Agreed they became what they were in order to be useful enough to feed and care for, but different traits may be desired as a pure companion.
Reproduction and evolutionary success in breeding conditions are not the same thing as survival. No breeder kills off dogs with unwanted characteristics, they just don’t breed them.
Idk if the "herding behaviour" is a useful way to think of this. Imagine that we didn't speak the same language, you went for a swim in the ocean and I would go after you and dragged you back to shore while shouting (in my own language) "Oh my, that is so dangerous. Do you even know how many people drown like that? Stop this lunacy at once". Would you describe my behaviour as "herding"? Would you talk about generations, and dominant genes? Or would you just say "this person has some fear for my safety (well grounded or baseless) and seems to care enough about me to save me from the danger he perceives, while I can't convince him that it is fine because we don't speak the same language."
This sort of "herding behavior" isn't just noticeable when you go out to swim, but any time 1+ people are apart from each other. You can spot these dogs extremely easily when you have a bunch of young children playing together, and you can see the family dog paying attention and as soon as one strays away from the group, the dog will start engaging and carefully nudge the stray kid back to the group.
There is no inherent danger in those situations, yet the dogs prefer if everyone was together in a group. If that's not "herding", I might just not understand what herding really is.
This analogy might work in a universe where dogs speak foreign languages in which they learn about concepts like danger, persuasion, and language itself. Sounds fun.
Lovely article. Worth mentioning that Labradors are descended from now extinct water dogs in Canada, but are technically British and were originally gun dogs. Of course they're incredible pets too.
Here in Scotland, I regularly meet a local gamekeeper who takes his 6 or 7 Labradors out for a walk - working dogs and extremely well behaved (unlike my unruly Samoyed!).
I still miss our black lab, Shambles, died at 13 of cancer during Christmas lockdown in 2020. He also shepherded me back to dry land when we swam together - which was probably sensible as I'm a terrible swimmer.
Sorry to hear about Shambles. We have a black lab named Mars who just turned 8 and it's bittersweet watching him age. He's such a great dog, I'd never had a lab before him but he's made me fall in love with the breed.
Wait that's an excellent idea! We've had 'real dolls' for decades, and these same methods could be applied to the ascetics of a dog android. And canine behaviour is more easily modeled, more easily mimicked, we could throw a very simple AI in there. No highly dexterous hands to concern one with either.
This is the perfect way to start on human androids. Cut our teeth on this, perfect this, then use the same knowledge to build humanform robots. The patents we'll accrue make it worth it on its own!
Best part is you wouldn't NEED to take them for a walk. No need to clean up their leavings. And if you wanted that part of the experience, it could be fertilizer, clean, specifically designed to help the local plants. We could make a mint selling it, plus, we'd ensure no pesky odour.
Or even better, what the dog simulates as leavings, could be bird food or some such! Each packaged drop, would feed the local pigeons, self-cleanup!
And dog treats! We'd have them beg for treats, but their innards will only accept treats made, and licensed specifically for the dog. In fact, without our specific dog food, the animal will "wither" and die!
We'll make a killing!
Johnson, get the design team in here pronto!
(Applies to YC, 12 months later 'mieses' sees such creations in Walmart)
NOTE: the above was a Google project, but once it hit the shelves, and with record breaking sales, Google cancelled it for inexplicable reasons.
The second paragraph begins with, “Though not a dog lover,” but then the author proceeds to write an entire article about dogs which culminates with a story about how he goes swimming in the sea with his dog. I suppose it’s a story about how Labradors convinced him to become a dog lover.
Can confirm that dogs in water will scrab you with their claws.
Lovely piece and comforting to read. And having swam in the Irish sea with dogs brought me back memory of being freezing wet, with dog scrapes and the smell of them after.
I'd manually roll mine on the dry sand to try dry them, or on the walk back through the spiky beach grass you'd have wet dog body press against your leg as you're moving too slowly silly human, but their fur was just too sopping wet for it to work.
I have labs, and they seem to have perfected the art of begging. Not too pushy (no barking), not too subtle. Just you know, when you're eating or moving towards food, it somehow crosses your mind that maybe the dog should have something. Always happy to do the one trick that gets them food, which is sitting on their hind legs.
I can see how this evolved. You sit near the humans, don't act aggressive, they give you food. You make puppies that follow the same plan. You give up the dead end profession of providing security. The parcel guy might also give you food, you never know!
What I don't get is how their other instinct evolved: "I must bring this tennis ball to master, and master must fulfill the social contract of launching it"
Sure, I can see how hunting for stuff makes you want to run over to something and pick it up. But what about the "throw the item 40m so I can run after it?" Why would that have a purpose? Why is the appetite for doing this insatiable, to the point where you are advised not to do it with small puppies who might hurt their hip development? Is it all just an extension of the juvenile stage, where play is important?
Labs have also become the dominant breed of dog through exceptional salesmanship. I bred my lab, and she had eight puppies. We advertised them, and not a single one of the families that came to see one decided against it. The mom would bring a puppy to the family, and as soon as they were holding a puppy, you could tell by the look in their eyes that they were sold. It's like she was saying "Hey, you look like nice people, buy my kid! He'll love you forever".
The puppies at that stage are already able to look deep in your eyes, and can already do the "oh hey, that's some interesting food you got there" look, and they already love a belly rub.
> But what about the "throw the item 40m so I can run after it?" Why would that have a purpose? Why is the appetite for doing this insatiable, to the point where you are advised not to do it with small puppies who might hurt their hip development?
A combination of chase instinct (when going forward) and resource guarding (when grabbing it and running back). Note that some dogs would do that, but skip the part where they return the toy back to the owner and just spend some quality one on one time with their prey.
Also reminded - we had neighbors with 2 cats, an experienced and cynical large red one and a naive curious tabby. They spent a lot of time outdoor wandering around, and the tabby was always trying to get everywhere, very friendly, and the red one was always very suspicious about everything and very worried and watchful over the tabby. Unfortunately the tabby got killed by a car. The neighbors after some time took another cat. The red one never let the new cat to leave their patio. Getting to sit on the patio fence was the maximum she would let him, and on any attempt to get down outside of the fence she would firmly herd him back.
My dad would go fishing on the beach with his formula 1 labrador. While my dad was in the water fishing, the dog would swim around him in circles. It could swim for an hour without break. It was very cute and impressive, but of course it would also scare the fish away. The dog would also be quite curious about the seals, but I've never seen them play like in the article. A lovely dog, but they have an uncontrollable appetite which can be pretty annoying.
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To me this is an (unpopular) argument against the tabula rasa theory of humans.
If such a complex behaviour can be congenital, who knows what behaviours are congenital in humans.
bite behind leg if multiple animals going towards X but animal A goes towards Y and biting will make A go towards X would be complex.
bite behind leg is simple and crude and by placing dog in right context produces complex and useful results.
It is crucial to their survival. That's how they made it to this day in these numbers.
There is no inherent danger in those situations, yet the dogs prefer if everyone was together in a group. If that's not "herding", I might just not understand what herding really is.
Deleted Comment
This is the perfect way to start on human androids. Cut our teeth on this, perfect this, then use the same knowledge to build humanform robots. The patents we'll accrue make it worth it on its own!
Best part is you wouldn't NEED to take them for a walk. No need to clean up their leavings. And if you wanted that part of the experience, it could be fertilizer, clean, specifically designed to help the local plants. We could make a mint selling it, plus, we'd ensure no pesky odour.
Or even better, what the dog simulates as leavings, could be bird food or some such! Each packaged drop, would feed the local pigeons, self-cleanup!
And dog treats! We'd have them beg for treats, but their innards will only accept treats made, and licensed specifically for the dog. In fact, without our specific dog food, the animal will "wither" and die!
We'll make a killing!
Johnson, get the design team in here pronto!
(Applies to YC, 12 months later 'mieses' sees such creations in Walmart)
NOTE: the above was a Google project, but once it hit the shelves, and with record breaking sales, Google cancelled it for inexplicable reasons.
A worthy contender to "Eats shoots and leaves".
Lovely piece and comforting to read. And having swam in the Irish sea with dogs brought me back memory of being freezing wet, with dog scrapes and the smell of them after.
I'd manually roll mine on the dry sand to try dry them, or on the walk back through the spiky beach grass you'd have wet dog body press against your leg as you're moving too slowly silly human, but their fur was just too sopping wet for it to work.
I can see how this evolved. You sit near the humans, don't act aggressive, they give you food. You make puppies that follow the same plan. You give up the dead end profession of providing security. The parcel guy might also give you food, you never know!
What I don't get is how their other instinct evolved: "I must bring this tennis ball to master, and master must fulfill the social contract of launching it"
Sure, I can see how hunting for stuff makes you want to run over to something and pick it up. But what about the "throw the item 40m so I can run after it?" Why would that have a purpose? Why is the appetite for doing this insatiable, to the point where you are advised not to do it with small puppies who might hurt their hip development? Is it all just an extension of the juvenile stage, where play is important?
Labs have also become the dominant breed of dog through exceptional salesmanship. I bred my lab, and she had eight puppies. We advertised them, and not a single one of the families that came to see one decided against it. The mom would bring a puppy to the family, and as soon as they were holding a puppy, you could tell by the look in their eyes that they were sold. It's like she was saying "Hey, you look like nice people, buy my kid! He'll love you forever".
The puppies at that stage are already able to look deep in your eyes, and can already do the "oh hey, that's some interesting food you got there" look, and they already love a belly rub.
A combination of chase instinct (when going forward) and resource guarding (when grabbing it and running back). Note that some dogs would do that, but skip the part where they return the toy back to the owner and just spend some quality one on one time with their prey.
Dead Comment
Also reminded - we had neighbors with 2 cats, an experienced and cynical large red one and a naive curious tabby. They spent a lot of time outdoor wandering around, and the tabby was always trying to get everywhere, very friendly, and the red one was always very suspicious about everything and very worried and watchful over the tabby. Unfortunately the tabby got killed by a car. The neighbors after some time took another cat. The red one never let the new cat to leave their patio. Getting to sit on the patio fence was the maximum she would let him, and on any attempt to get down outside of the fence she would firmly herd him back.