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Posted by u/elric 8 months ago
Ask HN: How are you preparing for PEPPOL?
Couldn't find any previous discussions on PEPPOL on HN. If you're unfamiliar with it, it is an electronic invoicing network, which the EU is starting to force on businesses. All business-to-business invoices in Belgium will have to be sent over PEPPOL as of next year [1]. Gone will be the days of emailing PDFs.

This obviously impacts every business which deals with other businesses. Access to the PEPPOL network is not free. Direct access is nearly impossible (it is expensive and requires technical audits). A variety of third parties are popping up to mediate access. They all seem complex and expensive. Not only will you have to use the network to send your invoices, you will also have to receive them somehow. If you're a small business, this could get pretty complicated pretty quickly.

I'm assuming we have some EU business owners/freelancers/entrepreneurs on HN. How are you preparing for this (apparently inevitable) future of PEPPOL?

[1] https://finance.belgium.be/en/enterprises/vat/e-invoicing/ma...

magicalhippo · 8 months ago
We make a niche B2B software which has an invoicing module and we've had to add EHF[1] support, which is the Norwegian implementation of electronic invoices delivered through PEPPOL.

The gov't in Norway has mandated use of EHF for billing the gov't for about a decade now, which really drove adoption. Our customers has to have an agreement with one of the access points[3], so the cost of sending the EHF goes directly to the customer.

Adding support wasn't terribly hard, but it wasn't trivial either. The XML is fairly straight forward, but when you submit one the access point doesn't just do a schema verification, it also verifies that intermediate values are calculated and rounded correctly for example.

[1]: https://anskaffelser.dev/postaward/g3/spec/current/billing-3...

[2]: https://peppol.org/learn-more/country-profiles/norway/

[3]: https://anskaffelser.no/verktoy/veiledere/aksesspunkter-ehf-...

Semaphor · 8 months ago
It doesn’t seem to be EU-mandated? Only Italy and Belgium have it mandatory, according to [0], in other countries it’s only relevant for B2G.

Outside that Wikipedia entry, I have also heard nothing about it becoming required in Germany (we are mainly B2C, but do some B2B and B2G), here we are instead moving forward with X-Rechnung/ZUGFeRD/Factur-X, which is an XML standard that can also be embedded in PDFs, and doesn’t require certification or anything.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEPPOL

raphig · 8 months ago
And for XRechnung, we luckily have AI-converters that take your existing PDF invoice and reliably convert it into XML without a need to change existing tools or workflows: https://www.invoice-converter.com/en
jve · 8 months ago
Latvia: As of this year it is required in B2G transactions. Next year, mandatory for B2B
Toutouxc · 8 months ago
And what are the official guidelines? Are you just supposed to find a 3rd party provider and pay whatever they ask? That’s kinda shitty if you ask me.
erwinmatijsen · 8 months ago
I’m using bookkeeping software that has already integrated it. It’s just a switch to turn sending invoices via peppol. It’s no extra charge on my paid plan.

I’m assuming all bookkeeping software will integrate it, just as all suppliers are able to send PDF invoices.

For the ones sending invoices manually, like OP, maybe software with free tiers will pop up. Just like many suppliers have free tiers for sending PDF invoices.

Dalewyn · 8 months ago
>All business-to-business invoices in Belgium will have to be sent over PEPPOL as of next year [1]. Gone will be the days of emailing PDFs.

>Access to the PEPPOL network is not free. Direct access is nearly impossible (it is expensive and requires technical audits). A variety of third parties are popping up to mediate access. They all seem complex and expensive.

So what you're saying is that a certain group of companies ("third parties") successfully lobbied your government(s) to mandate an artificial monopoly on a practical necessity for ostensibly honorable and convenient reasons, and everyone will pay up for this divine virtue.

I'm sorry if this comes off as dismissive, but as an American who deals in this sort of officework as part of $dayjob you guys need to vote in better politicians.

vesinisa · 8 months ago
The purpose of this is to reduce manual work. In Finland, we've had mandatory electronic invoicing in all B2B transactions since 2020 (based on domestic standard called Finvoice which is very similar to PEPPOL.) It is really great. My company is 100% paper-free. When I get an invoice, it pops up to my accountants system and I just go and accept it with one click in their web UI. After that the invoice will be paid from my bank account on the due date and entered into the books automatically.

Gone are the error-prone days of manually copying account numbers, invoice reference codes and amounts from PDFs and paper mail, and scanning those invoices for book keeping.

The standards for e-invoicing are open but it's true that you need to hire a trusted intermediary to process your messages. Anyone can become a processor so it's not a closed system but I bet there's some auditting required before you get a license - which makes sense.

Overall changes like these initially mean some expenses to businesses but once the system is up and working as intended it reduces lots of mandatory pencil pushing type work, bringing savings throughout the economy to all companies.

B1zz3y_ · 8 months ago
You're right that the main basis is the automation part. That being said they could have gone with a system that does not require a yearly 2K fee to just be a part of the peppol group.

That's my only negative point about this whole system is that money is being pulled away from freelancers and small SME's for every invoice they send.

The big guys just setup an access point and pay the yearly fee as it is nothing compared to their revenue.

miki123211 · 8 months ago
> So what you're saying is that a certain group of companies ("third parties") successfully lobbied your government(s) to mandate an artificial monopoly on a practical necessity for ostensibly honorable and convenient reasons, and everyone will pay up for this divine virtue.

I'm sure that direct (as in having your own AS number, IP blocks and peering arrangements) access to the internet is even more expensive, not to mention things like your own electricity or your own cellphone network.

Somehow, people aren't complaining that your average bootstrapped SaaS can't become its own ISP.

As long as any reasonably-sized company can become a provider, and as long as the government isn't demanding something outrageous, like the provider having to pay an 'interchange fee' for every invoice send through the network, economies of scale will come in and drive costs down.

Dalewyn · 8 months ago
>economies of scale will come in and drive costs down.

Will it, though? From the sound of it this is a singular system with no competitors and required for any commercial activity, so there's no downward pressure there. As for the intermediaries, there will probably be competition between them but history doesn't bode well (see: Quickbooks, et al.).

almostnormal · 8 months ago
Huge difference between EU and US: In the EU, the seller always pays VAT to the government. In case of B2B, the buyer can claim it back from the government. As proof, store the invoice and data about the payment (and that the goods/service have been received). Proof is rarely verififed. Huge potential for tax fraud.

With all invoices going through government computers, only VAT that has actually been paid can be claimed back.

The easier solution would of course be to get rid of VAT, and increase income tax instead. But then people earning barely enough will suddenly notice how much the are paying. VAT nicely hides that fact.

jjcob · 8 months ago
The nice thing about VAT is that everyone has to pay it, whether they pay income tax or not. Lots of people get their money income tax free (undeclared jobs, income from abroad, inheritance, etc). With VAT everyone has to pay.
Hamuko · 8 months ago
>I'm sorry if this comes off as dismissive, but as an American who deals in this sort of officework as part of $dayjob you guys need to vote in better politicians.

Wanna tell me how you file taxes?

Dalewyn · 8 months ago
My personal taxes? I just fill out the federal and state forms and mail them in, though I'm thinking of hiring a CPA to do it for me starting this year since some things might get more complicated than I care for. We'll see, I guess.

The company? A CPA does it as far as I know, but filing everything ourselves is certainly an option.

imaximix · 8 months ago
Developer working on Peppol Access Point here.

We have this nifty description:

Peppol is a global network that simplifies electronic document exchange, like invoices and purchase orders. It uses a standardized format to automate invoicing and procurement processes.

The network operates on a four-corner model involving senders, service providers, and receivers, ensuring seamless communication. By partnering with a certified Peppol Access Point (some has been mentioned, e.g., Maventa is another), you can tap into this network with ease and broaden your global reach. It’s a valid solution when you can’t set resources aside for this.

So, the options are: [1]: If you’re a software provider, partner with a Peppol-certified provider [2]: If you’re a business, you may already have access if using particular ERP or invoicing software. Ask them!

At least Maventa offers global invoice access without extra charges. Integration and user registration are free; fees apply based on Peppol usage only.

AMA

elric · 8 months ago
Are you willing/able to talk about the access point you're working on? Will this be one for public/commercial use? Or is this an internal project?
imaximix · 8 months ago
Hello, sure. It's for public/commercial use. I've already given the name. What would you like to know?
rozenmd · 8 months ago
There's a Stripe app in their marketplace for sending invoices over PEPPOL, I'm sure it'll become a feature once it's mandatory in enough places.

Here in France there's a similar system, I just require a certain tier to accept payments through it.

slau · 8 months ago
I’m using VISMA e-conomic to do my bookkeeping/invoicing. They launched an eInvoice system some time ago which I would expect was PEPPOL based, or something similar. They enabled it by default without informing anyone.

A couple of my clients didn’t see the invoice in my monthly email, so they asked me to resend it. I re-sent the PDF manually.

To address OP’s question: I don’t expect it will change much for me. The customer configuration will let me choose whether the invoice is sent by email or another way, and I’ll still create my invoice by clicking “book and send” in e-conomic.

42lux · 8 months ago
It’s really not that complicated or expensive. Broken down for most people it’s gonna work just like email. What’s your grievance besides the general stuff in your post?
elric · 8 months ago
It seems pretty complicated to me, but maybe you can point out some resources that make it easy?

My current invoicing system is a simple tool that generates PDFs. I send those to my customers by email (and rarely an angry reminder by post), and I get paid. Good stuff. My suppliers similarly send me PDFs by mail, and some of them send me paper invoices by post. All very simple. I pay them every month, and once every quarter I send those on to my accountant so he can do his thing.

All this sending and receiving has been free so far. But with PEPPOL, I'll suddenly need some third party tool with some kind of paid subscription, to continue to do what I had been doing for free before.

descala · 8 months ago
This one https://www.b2brouter.net/global/prices/ allows free sending, but it does not offer reception.

Deleted Comment

itake · 8 months ago
Another poster says its $2k/yr membership fee + auditing to submit invoices in their system.

Even if you "share" a certificate with others, this seems like an unwanted income tax for freelancers or businesses.

1,800 euro annual fee for freelancers:

https://peppol.org/join/fees/

dpnmn · 8 months ago
That's something else, thats for directly connecting to Peppol, which few business will do (mostly very large businesses, or financial companies).

Most businesses will use a accounting system anyway, and most of those will support Peppol out-of-the-box. So instead (or in addition) to sending an e-mail, the invoice will be sent directly into their accounting system (and their bank, if they choose).

Really, it simplifies things a lot! No more punching/copying of stuff from PDFs into your online bank. The cost is not really high, just a bit annoying (typically some euros a month + a few euros pr invoice).

(I probably could have found a cheaper provider but I don't send many invoices so it is ok).