This does look very cool. But my advise for anyone suffering from pain to their arms, hands, backs, and any other body parts that usually hurt for people working on computer all day: Do modest, but regular mobility and strength exercises.
While having an ergonomic (and cool looking at that) setup is important, it wont save you from muscle atrophy. A physical therapist might help you find the right kind of exercises for you.
This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting. And you need to do it regularly. But if you stick to it, the payoff is much better than any setup I ever had.
Full agree. My wife is a physical therapist (DPT, Northwestern) and the owner of a PT practice. I say this with some (very limited) authority, repeating things she has said to me:
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
> 2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
For those of you who don't have 2 minutes for some balance and proprioception work, I practise putting on pants and other stuff in the morning with one hand, usally my non-dominant, whilst brushing my teeth. It is hard at first, don't kill yourself with your toothbrush in case you fall over, but it gets easier after a few weeks.
Come to think of it, I should start practising brushing my teeth with my non-dominant hand, but it might take 30 mins instead of 2, and waste a lot of toothpaste.
Last time I saw my physio, I asked about the exercise ball sitting thing because it had come up in a recent conversation. She smirked, got a ball from the other room and then proceeded to sit down on it with the biggest hunch I've ever seen. You can have bad posture sitting on anything, for most people having the option to support their back is better, because then you're not screwed once your back inevitably does get tired.
I bought an exercise ball for this purpose, but then learned that exercise balls can rupture under you with disastrous consequences. It may happen rarely, but I would rather not risk it.
> This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting.
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
Yup, can confirm. Had forearm pain for years (started in the wrists when I started using a laptop at school), did the whole round of ergonomic keyboards, joystick-mouse, etc. Eventually went to a personal trainer who had me try pushups, couldn't do them because of wrist pain. He then made me do deadlifts, which were tricky at first because my grip strength wasn't great, but after just a few sessions it improved markedly, and with it, my wrist/forearm pain. Long-term relief, too. I'm only now (seven, eight years later?) starting to feel it again.
I had a similar experience. Until I started exercising, I had very bad pain in my shoulders and neck from too much desk work. Every couple of weeks I would develop a "stiff neck". I also had pain in my wrists occasionally.
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
My theory is that because your muscles are a little bit tensed for a long period of time, there's not enough movement to move the blood and lactic acid around, and eventually it builds up and becomes painful.
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
Just jumping on this to say: I had chronic lower back and wrist pain for a long time. Had the whole ergonomic setup. Adjustable desk, Kinesis keyboard, vertical mice, etc. What fixed me was starting to squat. Took like 3 weeks of squatting and I haven't had back or wrist pain since (it's been 10+ years). Now I just use the standard (and very nonergonomic) Apple keyboard and mouse.
Huge +1 to this, but I would also add walking _at least_ 8000 steps per day. I still had some minor, nagging pain until I started walking more. Turns out humans are not meant to sit all day!
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
This is great advice! It took me 2 years and many doctors before I wound up at a physical therapist who figured out my nerve issue in 10 minutes. It was wild how they could move my shoulder and reproduce it. Now I’m working on strengthening stuff to make it better—and keeping the setup for a defense in depth against other issues
I’ve had wrist pain from mouse use for about 15 years now. The first big win was a vertical mouse, but I still had pain when working excess hours or playing video games. I tried various workouts and hand exercises and they usually left me in pain
What I discovered this year is hitting golf balls is the right amount of gentle strengthening and accidental PT. I started going to the driving range regularly like 4 months ago and my wrist pain is almost entirely gone.
So mostly this is to say everyone should keep trying and not give up. Every body and injury is different. You just have to experiment and stay active.
I imagine we'll be seeing more personalized setups as time progresses. Custom keyboards have been pretty feasible and affordable for a good while now, with things like QMK and even custom PCB designers. It can still be a bit fiddly, so it's mostly keyboard nutters such as myself who go down that rabbit hole.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
How far are we with brain control interfaces though? I've seen some people playing games with off-the-shelf-ish non invasive eeg devices. Although there seemed to be some delay and crudeness to it.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
> If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
Fairly sure the signal to noise level isn't acceptable, unless you are willing to have electrodes permanently implanted in your skull. External BCI is a very basic at the present time.
>> I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
I've tried them, but something about the button placement feels off for the shape of my hand. I recommend them to people quite often, and they're usually well received.
Well, I don't the intention is to spend more time using the computer. When your work consists of using the computer, it is "rational" to do whatever is possible to minimize the undesirable effects and any harm. Now, if you are suggesting that OP should change his work (or his hobby) then your I don't think your comment is helpful. Regards.
All of these so-called solutions are a waste of time and largely just adding a ridiculous amount of complexity to what is a very simple problem.
Context: I worked a number of years in the special effects (movies) world. I supported hundreds of graphics artists working in dark rooms 16 hours a day. Think movies like Independence Day, Star Wars, etc. Dozens of artists wore all kinds of wrist braces all day. They also had just-about every single crazy ergonomic keyboard you could possibly imagine, including various forms of split, slanted, cavity, whatever. And, of course, the fanciest adjustable chairs and tables. I remember a couple of the guys working on Independence Day having to have surgery on their wrists. Crazy. Just nuts.
Do you know who did not suffer from these injuries? Without fail, anyone who was actively involved in sports or physical training (going to the gym, lifting, swimming, etc.) AND took regular breaks.
In my own case, having seen just how bad things could get, once I started to feel soreness on my wrists I took matters into my own hands. I use the flattest possible keyboards and a thumb-operated trackball. I designed and made my own desk to guarantee proper arm and wrist ergonomics.
Laptops, for the most part, are evil. They force the wrist into a bad configuration. Not good for prolonged work if you care about your health.
Aside from that, take breaks and lift weights. Amazing things happen when you squat, deadlift, bench and shoulder press on a regular program (I recommend Starting Strength).
The vast majority of the crazy ergo setups out there are a waste of time. They do not address the root cause, which is treating your body like we are robots. We are not. We need moderation, rest and exercise. That's the solution or, at the very least, the way to mitigate and prevent injury.
I agree completely with you regarding not treating our bodies as if we're robots. About a year ago I began lifting weights again, something I hadn't done in more than 20 years, and the difference is amazing.
I used to have very frequent pain episodes that would severely affect my ability to type on a keyboard, and now they are almost completely gone (and when I do get them, it's nowhere near as severe as it used to be).
That said, I still have a Model 100 (as the one depicted in the older pictures in the post) and the ergonomics are IMHO worth it, at least compared to some of the keyboards available, but in particular to builtin laptop keyboards (as you mention, everything is bad about laptops and I treat mine like a very portable desktop: if I need to be on the move, I take my keyboard and trackpad and use the laptop as a small display).
On top of that, the fact that it's programmable turned out to be much better than I had thought. My workflow is heavily customized now and I'm objectively a lot faster than I used to be before. The layers system on this keyboard takes a bit of getting used to (as does the layout itself) but, at least for me, once I got through the learning curve, it's so good I'm going to buy another one to have as a spare.
I go all the way back to the introduction of the original Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and variants of the time. Watching a few hundred graphic artists grapple with this problem over a few years was a real education on the topic. They tried everything, from wrist braces to every type of keyboard and variant available. I remember one guy even resorted to taping the pen for his digitizing tablet to his hand in order to avoid having to grasp it for 12+ hours per day. Another guy taught himself to use two pens with the tablet to be able to alternate and relax one hand while continuing to work.
All of it, I concluded, at the end of the day, was just nuts. What they had to do was to both exercise and take meaningful breaks every couple of hours or thereabouts.
I need to go back and document my custom desk design. The approach I took worked very well.
My point was more about the location of the machine. Having to do a quick pause and walk to your kitchen to prepare a cup of coffee, tee or whatever once in a while is not a bad thing for ypur body.
Biggest thing, or the only thing that worked, is using 2 keyboards. With this I get the correct width needed. Whenever I use the regular keyboards I have to scrunch my shoulders and this leads to back pain and arm/hands pain. Highly recommend
For those wondering about the tiny amount of keys, you definitely can get used to it.
I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically - I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9), but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the time.
There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it), but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
Readit News
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
Come to think of it, I should start practising brushing my teeth with my non-dominant hand, but it might take 30 mins instead of 2, and waste a lot of toothpaste.
I bought an exercise ball for this purpose, but then learned that exercise balls can rupture under you with disastrous consequences. It may happen rarely, but I would rather not risk it.
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
/i
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
[0] https://thereadystate.com/built-to-move/
What I discovered this year is hitting golf balls is the right amount of gentle strengthening and accidental PT. I started going to the driving range regularly like 4 months ago and my wrist pain is almost entirely gone.
So mostly this is to say everyone should keep trying and not give up. Every body and injury is different. You just have to experiment and stay active.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
Looked amazing; IIRC the tricky part was how to wire it back to the computer when the chair was on wheels.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
Fairly sure the signal to noise level isn't acceptable, unless you are willing to have electrodes permanently implanted in your skull. External BCI is a very basic at the present time.
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
I just hope the ingenuity will run out before their body reaches an unrecoverable state.
Their arms and neck hurt from using computers (specifically laptops) in their factory configuration.
They have reconfigured the physical layout to no longer cause pain when used.
Having multiple desks and desk heights and possibly multiple keyboards is probably what is needed. Not to mention stretching and strengthening.
I'd recommend OP go to physical therapy.
Context: I worked a number of years in the special effects (movies) world. I supported hundreds of graphics artists working in dark rooms 16 hours a day. Think movies like Independence Day, Star Wars, etc. Dozens of artists wore all kinds of wrist braces all day. They also had just-about every single crazy ergonomic keyboard you could possibly imagine, including various forms of split, slanted, cavity, whatever. And, of course, the fanciest adjustable chairs and tables. I remember a couple of the guys working on Independence Day having to have surgery on their wrists. Crazy. Just nuts.
Do you know who did not suffer from these injuries? Without fail, anyone who was actively involved in sports or physical training (going to the gym, lifting, swimming, etc.) AND took regular breaks.
In my own case, having seen just how bad things could get, once I started to feel soreness on my wrists I took matters into my own hands. I use the flattest possible keyboards and a thumb-operated trackball. I designed and made my own desk to guarantee proper arm and wrist ergonomics.
Laptops, for the most part, are evil. They force the wrist into a bad configuration. Not good for prolonged work if you care about your health.
Aside from that, take breaks and lift weights. Amazing things happen when you squat, deadlift, bench and shoulder press on a regular program (I recommend Starting Strength).
The vast majority of the crazy ergo setups out there are a waste of time. They do not address the root cause, which is treating your body like we are robots. We are not. We need moderation, rest and exercise. That's the solution or, at the very least, the way to mitigate and prevent injury.
I used to have very frequent pain episodes that would severely affect my ability to type on a keyboard, and now they are almost completely gone (and when I do get them, it's nowhere near as severe as it used to be).
That said, I still have a Model 100 (as the one depicted in the older pictures in the post) and the ergonomics are IMHO worth it, at least compared to some of the keyboards available, but in particular to builtin laptop keyboards (as you mention, everything is bad about laptops and I treat mine like a very portable desktop: if I need to be on the move, I take my keyboard and trackpad and use the laptop as a small display).
On top of that, the fact that it's programmable turned out to be much better than I had thought. My workflow is heavily customized now and I'm objectively a lot faster than I used to be before. The layers system on this keyboard takes a bit of getting used to (as does the layout itself) but, at least for me, once I got through the learning curve, it's so good I'm going to buy another one to have as a spare.
All of it, I concluded, at the end of the day, was just nuts. What they had to do was to both exercise and take meaningful breaks every couple of hours or thereabouts.
I need to go back and document my custom desk design. The approach I took worked very well.
https://www.ntietz.com/blog/decaf-is-good-actually/
I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically - I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9), but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the time.
There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it), but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
The big trade-off is layout complexity. My layout[0] is extremely complicated...
[0]: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...