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Posted by u/notrab 9 months ago
Show HN: Dumbo – Hono inspired framework for PHPgithub.com/notrab/dumbo...
Hey HN, I last PHP professionally over 15 years ago, and I loved it. I switched to Ruby on Rails, then Node/Go/React/GraphQL as there was a lot more demand for those roles. However, PHP is back!

In true JavaScript fashion, I decided to learn PHP again by building a framework to put all the pieces together in my brain.

I absolutely love Hono.dev, and decided to base the PHP framework on that. Dumbo isn't intended to compete with Laravel, Symphony or Slim, if anything, it's something people can use in production, but also contribute to and be used as a learning resource for others.

jtreminio · 9 months ago
You're requiring PHP 8.3 but not using some of the most powerful tools in 7+: strict types.

``` /* @var array<string, mixed> Variables stored in the context */ private $variables = []; ```

This should be typed as `array` (heck, I'd argue ArrayObject instead) and all your classes should have `declare(strict_types=1);` at the top.

Your `Dumbo\Helpers` classes are basically static mine traps that you are unable to mock in unit tests. Why does `BasicAuth` expose a single static method but then calls a bunch of other static methods? What ends up happening in any class that uses any of your `Dumbo\Helpers` classes will always run whatever code is defined in these helper classes.

I'm unsure where the bootstrapping process begins. What file does your webserver need to call to handle a new request? I am hoping it is within a root-level directory and not at the root level itself. In other words, `/public/index.php` vs `/index.php`. Your quickstart in README.MD makes it pretty clear that you expect the latter, which is highly unsafe. See any number of poorly configured webservers that stop processing PHP for any reason but now show your site's full contents to anyone passing by.

I would strongly argue against _any_ magic in your framework. Specifically, routes: they should be explicitly defined. I still work with a legacy Symfony 1 framework project and I can't tell you how much I detest magic routing. For a modern example see how Symfony 2+ requires explicit route definition. Heck, how it requires explicit everything because magic should be left to magicians.

Your framework seems like it can only handle `application/json` and `application/x-www-form-urlencoded` requests, but not `multipart/form-data`.

Take these as positive criticisms of your work. It's "fine". I wouldn't use it, I would actively recommend against using it, but I would actively recommend against using anything that's not Symfony (or Laravel if I were drunk). I do not think your project is at the "Show HN" level - it is still far too under-developed.

notrab · 9 months ago
Appreciate the feedback, I'll work on it. I have lots to learn it seems!
thinkingtoilet · 9 months ago
Out of curiosity, what do you dislike so much about Laravel?
jtreminio · 9 months ago
1) *magic* 2) Its ORM of choice uses ActiveRecord pattern which I find to be hideous. DataMapper is far superior 3) Its weird facade patterns is terrible

I can (and have!) gone in-depth into my misgivings with Laravel, but it is fine for most projects and teams. It has elevated the average codebase quality throughout the PHP community and introduced many engineers to what PHP can do. Its creator and community have been a large net-positive to PHP as a whole.

I still prefer Symfony:

1) explicit 2) DataMapper ORM by default 3) What I am used to

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shikck200 · 9 months ago
We actually target a HUGE legacy PHP codebase (its over 16 years old, with over 1M LOC) with Haxe. I would not EVER write vanilla PHP for anything else than a toy website, because there is no amount of testing that makes it stable enough.

We still have a lots of legacy PHP, but its slowly being refactored to Haxe. With Haxe we get a really nice typesystem, and a "faster than Go" compiler. It has pushed our productivity thru the roof.

We still need to use external dependencies tho, as PHP lacks any concurrency in the core language, so we also have a Go API for fetching data concurrently, and also use it as a BI directional socket for the frontend and as a queue server.

Otherwise, the stack is pretty much PHP7 from top to bottom.

gr4vityWall · 9 months ago
Very interesting to hear about the Haxe PHP target being used like that. How did you start introducing it to the codebase? Were there any devs familiar with Haxe in the company already?
shikck200 · 9 months ago
See my above comment for a semi detailed version of how we do things.
keb_ · 9 months ago
This is really cool to hear as someone who used to experiment with Haxe for game development. Would love to read a case study.
shikck200 · 9 months ago
We started small. And prototyped with just a single feature.

Basically we generate code in our src folder under a reserved namespace, and other PHP code can then use that code with imports. As we grow, we might want to split this into separate compilation units (we are not there yet, as the Haxe compiler is really fast!)

At the moment the generated PHP code is checked in source control, again we might want to have this done in CI, but it works kind of nicely at the moment.

The tricky bits are how to "speak" to PHP. Haxe is a really nice functional language (even its syntax is traditionally class based, but you can have module level fields in Haxe since 2020), so its pretty annoying to handle option types etc from the PHP side. We are still not decided on this part, and many APIs expose duplicate functions for some general task, like foo and foo_exn, and the one that ends with _exn throws instead of returning a variant (like option/maybe etc)

Also, its tricky to design where data is fetched from. We tend to keep the Haxe code as pure as possible, and only taking input and returning output (not doing any IO). We also write our own typings for externals, this has actually been really good for us, as we can observe easily what we actually use, and if we can remove some dependency that has some one feature we only use.

Overall, im amazed not more PHP devs look into Haxe as its basically a better version of what is TypeScript > JavaScript. Also there is no other compile to PHP language im aware of that ha the same robustness and features Haxe has.

crowcroft · 9 months ago
I don't see myself ever using anything other than Laravel, but love these kinds of projects just to see what new ideas they might spark for the wider PHP community. Also interested in https://tempestphp.com/
endofreach · 9 months ago
While it's indeed too much boilerplate necessary for good DI, just the first paragraph sounds insane to me: "Tempest features a unique concept called discovery. Tempest will scan your code and find out what to do with it: from controller routes to event handlers, from console commands to dependency initializers; Tempest will detect everything without you having to write a single line of configuration or bootstrap code."
racl101 · 9 months ago
I was about to start looking for a PHP micro framework. I wish Lumen was still supported.
leftnode · 9 months ago
Symfony 7.2 can work as a micro framework, believe it or not: https://symfony.com/blog/new-in-symfony-7-2-simpler-single-f...
james2doyle · 9 months ago
Can't go wrong with Slim: https://www.slimframework.com/

But if you're looking for something more modern and interesting, then Hyperf looks pretty cool. They have a mini-framework version you can check out: https://github.com/hyperf/nano

It does require Swoole, but that is a lot easier to get your hands on these days

crowcroft · 9 months ago
When you say micro framework, what are you looking for? If you're just looking for a routing library then something like Symfony Flex might be what you want.

I find when I start a project I pretty quickly want to add an ORM, models, and maybe some middleware, and then I'm at a point where I might as well just use Laravel because it's fast enough and I know my way around.

notrab · 9 months ago
Is FuelPHP or CodeIgniter still going? Those were my two favourites back in the day before Laravel came on the scene.
notrab · 9 months ago
That looks awesome!
dzonga · 9 months ago
I wish the market didn't determine the technologies we get to work with. because at times the market can be wrong due to incentives.

e.g the market was wrong on graphQL.

btw Hono is cool, but found the api surface area insufficient for my node.js usecases.

no_wizard · 9 months ago
How was the market objectively wrong on GraphQL?

I ask a a REST turned GraphQL advocate to be clear but criticisms I hear tend to be opinions or issues with specific implementations but not ones based on the technical shortcomings of the technology

davzie · 9 months ago
I can't comment on all the shortcomings and this may be reflective on my lack of experience with different implementations, but doesn't using GraphQL basically just enable a tonne of unoptimised database queries to occur that, at scale, could cause some serious load issues?
bearjaws · 9 months ago
GraphQL has too many foot guns for your typical SMB to implement successfully, especially pivoting from REST. It requires you to architect your solution much further ahead than most companies have the capability to.

I prefer it over SOAP, but I think it's far too easy to ignore:

N+1 issues

Security (found that we had our entire schema open including internal data routes at my last job), also we had to refactor from patients being company -> patient to company -> pharmacy -> patient... that was fun

Overcomplicating resolvers

Not implementing pagination upfront

Dead end schema designs, since you need to plan much further ahead it really hurts when you mess it up. In REST you can make a V2 of a route and move on. Especially since many people ignore modules at first. Even large corporations get stuck with UserEntity_V2, updateUser_V2.

IMO if you are going "wow if only we had GraphQL" and your team only knows REST you are always better off improving your REST tooling and standards. For example, when adding a new entity/resource you can just plan to understand how your own teams intend to query for this data, rather than guessing with GraphQL or implementing every search pattern.

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endofreach · 9 months ago
"The market" = facebook. It shouldn't be a surprise.
cies · 9 months ago
I've went through a similar journey, with some PHP in the early days, then a lot of Merb/Rack/RoR experience. Though I'd not say PHP is back. I'd avoid it for new projects as there are --IMHO-- much better languages available for free.

What I really liked from webdevt in Ruby was Rack. https://github.com/rack/rack (gosh I prefer the simplicity of the old logo)

And I found a Rack-like architecture in "http4k" https://www.http4k.org

In a way Kotlin can be looked at as a "typed Ruby". Sure Ruby now has optional types, but I believe it's not something easily bolted on later. The whole lang + stdlib should be built in an idiomatic way. Changing the language a lot later usually creates a mess in the stdlib.

The framework http4k delivers is very similar Hono/Dumbo, but it has a Rack built in as well. Also, http4k is make by functional programming enthusiasts. So it clearly separates logic and data.

Small request: Please make Hono clickable in the README!

basilgohar · 9 months ago
If nothing else, I love the logo. A hyper-realistic take on the ElePHPhant [0].

[0] https://www.elephpant.com/

gagik_co · 9 months ago
There is definitely a discussion like this under every repo at this point but I genuinely do not understand why people feel the need to have AI art for their GitHub projects. It’s subjective but it just looks tacky and cheap, as is nearly always case with AI art. Some online, non-AI logo generator that slaps a generic royalty free icon with a font would be miles better, or honestly even dropping it altogether and just having a header.
notrab · 9 months ago
I think it looks cute
campak · 9 months ago
Small world! Congrats on getting up there on Hacker News, too!
notrab · 9 months ago
Thanks Campak!
wink · 9 months ago
What's your distinguishing point over Slim and Silex (rip) because from your example script I don't see anything different. I mean, how would it, (un?)fortunately PHP syntax doesn't let you play as much with DSLs as Ruby or other languages.
notrab · 9 months ago
I guess that's still to figure out... it's mostly been an experiment to relearn PHP... I guess keeping a similar DX to Hono's context->X is where I was coming from originally.
oldandboring · 9 months ago
This is what I was thinking as well. From the README examples it looks like every other modern PHP micro framework.
notrab · 9 months ago
100% like every other framework. I'm primarily a JS dev, so it's in my nature to create yet another framework...

But seriously, this has been a tool for me to relearn PHP, and those contributing so far have also been learning PHP. If it ends up just bein (and nothing more than) something helps me, as well as others learn more about PHP, it's a success.