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Posted by u/ent_superpos a year ago
Ask HN: Has anyone successfully pivoted from web dev to AI/ML development?
I am currently working as a senior full-stack web software engineer. I have a BSc in Computer Science, and on my own, I've been learning more about AI/ML/deep learning. I really enjoy working with it, and I'd love to find a way to work on AI stuff professionally. The problem is that I've been working as a web developer professionally for about 10 years now, and I have no idea how I would pivot to more of a AI/data science role.

Does anyone have an experience of making this transition? As a web dev, I am senior level, but I'm sure I'd have to start from scratch on some things in the AI space. At least I have a good foundation of programming in general, math, and computer science.

simonw · a year ago
Do you want to train models from scratch, or do you want to build cool things on top of AI models?

If the former, I suggest digging into things like the excellent Fast AI course: https://course.fast.ai/

If the latter, the (relatively new) keyword you are looking for is likely "AI Engineer" - https://www.latent.space/p/ai-engineer

There's an argument that deep knowledge of how to train models isn't actually that useful when working with generative AI (LLMs etc) - knowing how to train or fine-tune a new model is less useful that developing knowledge of the other weird things you have to figure out about prompting, evals and using these models to build production-quality apps.

thatguymike · a year ago
This is the right question. There are relatively few people doing "Capital A Capital I" work building and training generative language/image models. Especially now that people have realized that calling the OpenAI API is going to work better than dedicating a team to tuning your own BERT model.

So some options are: * Building ML models for traditional applications - forecasting, ranking, recommending, all of that. Data Scientists and ML Engineers haven't gone away. * Working as an "AI Engineer" building on top of existing APIs and models. Very hip, but also in flux - I couldn't tell you whether that role will still be considered rare & valuable in a few years time, or what skills will be core to it. * ML Ops, engineering work for building & serving AI & ML models. It's always good to be selling shovels.

I would try to get into a team you're interested in as a SWE and then upskill or pivot. In my experience this is more effective than trying to completely reskill and sell yourself as an unproven prospect for MLE or AI Scientist work. AI/ML teams still need software, and in fact many of the best researchers are not great software engineers.

dontlikeyoueith · a year ago
> Especially now that people have realized that calling the OpenAI API is going to work better than dedicating a team to tuning your own BERT model.

At 100x the operating cost.

If you have any kind of scale, using a model that's appropriately sized to your task is going to be better.

willsmith72 · a year ago
I want to agree with this, but after reading the whole article, I have no idea what the skills of an AI Engineer are.

Why is that not the job of a software/product engineer?

> none of the highly effective AI Engineers I named above have done the equivalent work of the Andrew Ng Coursera courses, nor do they know PyTorch, nor do they know the difference between a Data Lake or Data Warehouse

they're explicitly not trained in ML/AI. any software engineer can write a good prompt, call an API, and deploy that on an http server.

why is that not just software/product engineering?

demosthanos · a year ago
An AI engineer wires up APIs to each other and returns the result as JSON, the same process as any other web dev.

Like any other web dev job there are differences across domains that can make it valuable to hire someone with past experience in your particular industry (in this case LLMs), but the only reason this gets a brand new title and others don't is hype.

simonw · a year ago
It basically IS just software/product engineering. An AI engineer is a product engineer who's ahead of the curve from everyone else in terms of building on top of LLMs and similar.

It might not even still be a speciality in a few years time. Right now though there's a lot of depth to the field that people who aren't focusing on it are missing out on.

Deleted Comment

collectedparts · a year ago
The fact that in 2024 you can still get sub-1-hour applicable reply from the creator of one of the top web frameworks ever is everything that makes HN amazing.
viccis · a year ago
One thing I've encountered more than once in the industry right now is that a lot of companies want to hire "AI Engineers", but they task their staff Very Serious Data Scientist with handling the interview. Inevitably, all the questions will be minutiae about different ANN designs and training processes. And without fail, no one involved will be actually dealing with that stuff on a day to day basis.
Breza · a year ago
I agree with your overall point. I'll add that the Fast AI course really does focus on building practical things, and I suggest it for anyone who wants to learn the basics of neural networks, even if you'll never train one from scratch.
f0e4c2f7 · a year ago
This is an extremely good insight and piece of advice. Already we're starting to see what looks very similar to a "frontend" and "backend" kind of development model similar to the previous tech generation.

While there are advantages to going "full-stack" in this analogy most people focus on one or another

jknight137 · a year ago
I looked at the latent.space site and it didn't seem to be updated/maintained. What I would like is a reputable playlist/roadmap of things to consume to go from Senior Engineer to AI Engineer.

Foundation you need what, a primer on Linear_Algebra+Calc+Stats+Prob. At a minimum you have to know the language. Then, do you need anything of classical AI? Anything of classical ML? Do you even need to have any knowledge of Deep Learning other than it exists? Or transformers? OR do you just need a bunch of tutorials on how to implement GPT API's, structuring and managing prompts, etc.

I know all this information is out there but has anyone linked it together? If so, is it paywalled? I did a quite search on AI Engineer and before I knew it a site was asking me for 20k+ and 1.5 years of my life. I already have a master's in CS, so I assume I can make faster strides and do it for less. Can anyone advise?

phillypham · a year ago
It's not too uncommon. I started off working with Angular and Java. But I studied math.

It depends on what type of role you want. If you'd be happy building the application layer and doing prompt engineering, just build applications that call LLM APIs.

If you want a research position at the top labs, the interviews really are actually passable by people without PhDs. They are really focused on having strong fundamentals. I've seen people make this leap but it can be years of preparation. Like actually reading textbooks, implementing low-level details like backprop, re-implementing papers, and doing non-trivial personal projects. Essentially, you're self-studying a Masters degree. Blog about it. Post about it here. I've found people to make this transition just generally love learning.

sevensor · a year ago
AI problems turn into data problems. The happiest and best compensated people I know in that area have gone into data engineering, because data engineers are the ones selling shovels in this gold rush.
akudha · a year ago
Could you please elaborate a bit more? I am your typical web-dev/frontend/backend developer, don't really know much about what is involved in data engineering.

Do you mean collecting, cleaning data? Or setting up databases (if yes, how is it different from me managing my employer's databases, except for size)?

In other words, what does a data engineer do all day?

sgaur · a year ago
Several data engineers that I know in this space (AI for business applications) are doing the usual ETL + mapping pipeline related work. Nowadays a lot of them are also having to deal with unstructured data such as textual reviews of products, service quality feedback, policy documents. Data engineers are developing the pipelines for chunking, vectorization, ingestion into RAG pipeline and for LLM training fine tuning. So it's still collecting, cleaning data, but quite different at the next level of detail, in my opinion.
sk11001 · a year ago
I would give the exact opposite advice - data engineering is one of the least rewarding or respected career paths.
sevensor · a year ago
If you find that this is the case in your organization, watch out. It's a sign that you're trying to build performative models that aren't grounded in reality. Depending on your organization's goals, this may take a long time to catch up with you.
jakeoverflow · a year ago
Data engineering feels like the DevOps of AI/ML. Important, but you have to have the right interests for it.

This comes from someone doing web dev after studying data science, so I don't know how well it reflects reality as I've never worked as a Data Eng. myself

mistrial9 · a year ago
a large organization that can pay stable wages over time is going to look for formal credentials when making a hiring decision. Further from that kind of (big,bureaucratic) group, are quickly assembling and then dissolving entities .. in other words "nice work if you can get it" .. with far less stability. Another term for this is "the Wild West" environment. There are some applicable analogies to the way Hollywood makes movies also perhaps, but with far less grounding.

In the Hollywood example from what I know of.. small "tiger teams" assemble with fundamentals, then quickly farm out the sexy work to disposable contracting firms, who then hire even more disposable people with various skill levels. In other words, lots of fun and excitement but also lots of work place abuses and low stability. Over time, Hollywood formed unions for a surprisingly large number of roles (like writers) because the real truth of business is not pretty. Needless to say, Silicon Valley has moved very quickly, and the Hollywood stories are not exactly applicable.

gnarcoregrizz · a year ago
Yes, AI team was created in our company to bring it in house, and I was invited mainly to integrate it into the web app, and to do some ops work. A year later and I'm fine tuning models, building datasets, working with PyTorch. Much different than webdev, not as rewarding sometimes, more unknowns, longer feedback cycles. The main issue is getting enough data quality and quantity, which can be a grind. Happy to have taken this opportunity though. Endless things to learn.
vasili111 · a year ago
How good are you in math? Do you know linear algebra and calculus?
ilaksh · a year ago
AI, ML, and data science are all different things. And there are different types of jobs in each of those categories.

If you want to apply AI, there are lots of really useful projects that are just calling the Anthropic or OpenAI API for the AI part. Or replicate.com image models etc. That wasn't the case a few years ago before we had the general purpose models. I have been doing a lot of those types of projects and I don't have a machine learning background.

There are ML Ops jobs that don't require a lot of machine learning knowledge.

There are ML researcher jobs that are just training LLMs which are more practical rather than theory.

To do novel machine learning research or at least significant variations of popular neural network architectures, I think that is the only thing that really requires years of study. But I think there is a very large gap between that type of work and web development. Which is why I was very happy to see the progress in general purpose models.

hectormalot · a year ago
Totally possible. About 30-40% of the people in our AI team don’t have a formal AI background. Especially with LLMs a lot of work has shifted towards “data literate software engineering”. We call them AI engineers / AI developers. Good development skills are very transferable to those roles.

Feel free to reach out if you’re in the EU (email in profile), we’re hiring. Also happy to give some pointers on how to approach these conversations.

iknownthing · a year ago
I'm always skeptical of these roles. Very often they do not involve anything AI related which is why a formal AI background is not required.
hectormalot · a year ago
Depends on your perspective. I think it’s like front-end development likely means you work _with_ React, not that you’re writing front end frameworks from scratch. In a similar way AI devs in our team work with LLMs, but they don’t create them from scratch.
Copenjin · a year ago
Exactly.
TbobbyZ · a year ago
This post shows why programming as a career overall sucks. Sure it’s great if you really enjoy programming. However, staying relevant to earn a decent living your entire life is difficult.
spmurrayzzz · a year ago
I would argue this post (and the majority of resultant comments) have demonstrated that programmers staying relevant isn't as difficult as it seems. They were curious about how to pivot, had a forum in which they could ask, and in minutes started getting a wealth of practical, actionable advice from folks who have done the same or similar. The theme so far is that those programming skills aren't obsolete just because you want to change the vertical you work in and learning materials to help you achieve that goal are abundant.
sulam · a year ago
Right, it’s a lot easier to shift than it would be to go into an entirely different kind of law, or become a different specialty of doctor.
nostrademons · a year ago
Some people like learning new things. If you go into tech you should know that it's a career where you basically have to retrain every 5 years. But in return for that, you get high wages and low barriers to entry. If you're someone who enjoys learning new skills, this is a profession tailor made for you.
TbobbyZ · a year ago
How do you know what to retrain in?
weatherlite · a year ago
At least in the U.S it's been one of the greatest careers possible imo in most objective measures - money, comfort, working conditions etc etc. I'm saying has been because job security plummetted in the last year or two and I'm not sure if its even going back to what it as befoer.
navbaker · a year ago
Maybe in what we think of as traditional tech, but there is enormous job security working as a developer in government or government adjacent organizations. You obviously take a pay hit, but also don’t have to live in an area with a huge cost of living relative to CA, NYC, etc.
collectedparts · a year ago
Ignoring industries built on regulatory capture / credentialism gatekeeping like law and medicine [by the way, even those both have continuing education requirements], are there actually exceptions to this?

Plenty of careers just go away. Might as well pick one where you can stay relevant by picking up incremental/adjacent skills continuously.

thejazzman · a year ago
Electrician and plumbers have it pretty good in this regard. I don't see that being replaced anytime soon and there's not all that much to learn and a lot less changing on you.

Maybe we'd get bored though.

willsmith72 · a year ago
i personally love the expectation of constant learning, growth and innovation in our field

but yes, anecdotally, compared to all of my friends and family, i don't know any profession with those same expectations. to name a few - market researchers, psychologists, primary school teachers.

antifa · a year ago
I think it's the opposite, there is a growing bubble of interest in hiring for AI stuff. In 5 years time your RAG pipeline model training career is going to pop and become my new `brew install ai-thing`. If I need image recognition/generation or LLMs, I'll call openai APIs the way one might call stripe or Spotify APIs. Don't trust them? Claude. Don't trust anyone? Self-hosted with RAG will be good enough without model training and easy to use by then.
soneca · a year ago
I am a web dev and I think I’ll stay relevant to earn a decent living as a web dev until I retire (it’s hard to predict 20 years ahead, but definitely the next 5-10 years at least).

It seems the author just want to change their career, not necessarily because of they won’t be able to earn money if they don’t.

foweltschmerz · a year ago
I don't think web development is becoming irrelevant anytime soon.
xaxaxb · a year ago
I enjoy letter-writing. So should I go on writing physical letters to everyone today? Moving with technology is essential, not just for developers, but for public as well. The trap is that we have to do it even if we don't want to. E.g: your neighbor country has nukes and you don't.
gaws · a year ago
> However, staying relevant to earn a decent living your entire life is difficult.

You either stay relevant (or close to relevant) or lose your job. Unfortunately, this is the field in the 2020s.

carom · a year ago
This is one of my favorite aspects. I love learning new things. I love being in a field where there are new things to learn every decade or so.
TillE · a year ago
The fundamentals of how computers work are essentially unchanged since the 60s or 70s. If you have a strong foundation (typically a CS or CE degree), picking up new stuff shouldn't be particularly difficult.

I mean, I just had a PR merged in a language I had literally never used before. It took me five minutes to pick up the basics. Sure it would take much longer to be fully productive, but it would be a comfortable transition.

Atheb · a year ago
Not sure if my experience is relevant, but I did a couple of internships in web dev during my bachelors degree in CS and quickly realized it wasn't for me. I then did a masters and now a PhD in medical imaging where I extensively use machine learning (design and train my own models, doing both supervised and RL) but I wouldn't say I am a researcher in AI/ML.

Because I am still in the academic process, I had the opportunity to take a couple of classes on the subject. Three books that I would recommend going over to make sure your foundation in ML and mathematics are solid are

-Pattern recognition and machine learning by Christopher Bishop

-Mathematics for Machine Learning by Peter Deisenroth

-Deep Learning by Courville, Bengio and Goodfellow

All three are legally available online in some form. I can't say I have any experience in finding a job related to ML though.