"Ledoyen attributes this to the elusive French idea of terroir. No translation accurately explains this concept [...]"
Terroir means earth, hence land (as in Terra for the name of planet Earth). Every peasant everywhere throughout all time understood and understands that the local soil and conditions affect the final agricultural product.
There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word.
This is a very very restrictive way to explain "terroir".
The simplest way I could describe this word as we use it in france is "a region along with its traditions and local peculiarities". So yes, the earth is part of it, but the culture, the traditions, the people, the crops, are part of the terroir.
For example, anyone can grow ducks. But the southeast of France has a long tradition of duck breeding and food products made of ducks, and is renowned for it. There is knowledge and craftmanship involved in the notion of terroir.
Or, hunters will often turn their game into terrine (i'll let you google that), and pretty much anyone will make it roughly the same. Granted boar may be tastier in the south due to the sun and the soil, but I have really no idea. But the notion of terroir enters there because each region will add its own twist; like the cognac region often making "terrines au cognac", or normandy "terrines au calvados".
Another example is "saucisson" or dry sausage. Regions will often make produces of terroir by adding local stuff; like in savoie where you'll find saucisson with beaufort or other mountains cheese in it. Or in normandie you'll find barbecue merguez (hot sausage) with bits of camembert inside.
We tend to use the term quite loosely, and it's pretty common to hear about humans being pure products of the terroir they grew up in.
(Nothing here is to cast aspersions to France or the French whom Im rather fond of)
Again, English words for dirt, e.g. land, can be used for the exact same meaning. The word terroir is not elusive; rather this is just another case of upper class English speakers fetishizing French culture mixed with French cultural conceit all too eager to oblige.
Italians have the exact same concept of "terra" when they explain why a little village in Umbria makes the best prosciutto (it hits the best humidity level allowing for optimal drying rate). Or why not all the land in Montalcino bear the same quality wine (mostly due to the quality of the amount of sun/shade)
And the Spaniards have the same concept with their "Tierra", including to describe people's attitude from those regions (just go to Euskal Herria)
In fact, your entire message is basically the definition of the EU's DOC.
The idea that terroir is an elusive French concept is also incredibly Eurocentric. Im European (origin) so I only have European examples; but do you really think that advanced civilizations like the Chinese or Japanese don't have the exact same concept as "terroir"?
Notably you didn’t translate the meaning, or, at least, “earth” or “land” is certainly too narrow.
Terroir is very broad, including the plants growing nearby, the climate, the topography, nearby features (grown near a river?), sunlight, and so on. I’m not a wine expert, but I know there’s even further things which can be included, some contentious, like tradition / process, microbes, etc.
see my other comment, but terroir is not only applicable to wine. it's more about stuff that's made in some specific place. and the people with their traditions are, I would say, as important to the notion of terroir.
> There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word.
Indeed. But “terroir” also encompasses things like climate, techniques, and processing (and therefore indirectly people, know-how and tradition). Not only the land. It’s a bit broader than just the place of origin.
"Terroir" does not mean "earth". The word for "earth" is "terre". They are obviously related, but not the same thing. Terroir is about much more than just the soil. Your translation is inaccurate.
I don't know if territory captures the entirety of the meaning. There's a notion of culture and tradition that isn't captured by the kinda geographic meaning of territory
> Is Paris Metro so shallow because of the quarries?
The Paris metro is a mixture of deep, subsurface, and surface tracks. There are a lot of shallow tunnels mostly because cut-and-cover was easier and cheaper than digging deep underground.
Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels.
> When is Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out?
You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley (actually I would be surprised if he did not try, even though he might not want to put that on YouTube). They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently but it still is fairly popular with the urban exploration crowd.
> Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels.
I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles? Seems to be the way London has gone with the Elizabeth Line. Although that may still be shallower than Paris' quarries and lakes.
Tim-like pedantry corner: the quarries and the catacumbs are actually the same thing. Catacumbs are parts of the quarries that have been turned to ossuaries, and are reachable from the wider quarry network.
> You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley
I'm not that sure, since he does not want to do illegal stuff (like for the belgian test track where the factory is now closed to the public). As for visiting those parts legally, well, I'm only aware of a few instances where there has been the media granted access. But it was more for documentaries about how the police works down there, not for a general history lesson. Both the police nor the IGC (the french administration managing the quarries) will bother with Tim sadly. So yes it'd be up his alley if he could do it legally.
> They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently
It's actually the opposite. There's a constant cat-and-mouse game going on, and they're switching strategies recently, which I could experience first-hand. Current strategy is about prevention because they know they cannot prevent people from getting down there, so they're emphasizing safety and not hurting yourself because they "don't want to get woken up at 9AM a sunday morning because someone got lost".
I'll reply only on the second point because that's a topic I know (I happen to wander quite often in those quarries). And no, there is no mushroom production anymore in the quarries.
The paris area is too crowded now, and for economies of scale, existing quarries are too hard to use, and will use old quarries further away (but not as old as the "catacumbs" to have larger tunnels easier to work in). Also, what's often called the catacumbs are quarries dating back to the middle ages, and thus are narrow, turny, wet, etc. Just a pain to work in.
Oh, and don't forget the dwellers that like to go down there, and would be sure to spoil all the crops.
I'm assuming the mushroom in question is agaricus biosporus in white button form. Interesting to hear the 3 star Michelin chef say there is a huge difference between paris mushrooms and industrial mushrooms of the same species due to the natural way it grows, because mushroom foragers often find this species in the wild and it's cousin agaricus campestris, but I never hear anyone mention it is particularly better than store bought mushrooms. The wild ones I've tried tasted fairly similar. For other cultivated mushrooms like lion's mane or oyster, foragers also don't claim huge taste benefits to the wild ones, and there is usually some fly larvae even if they look good.
Do the catacombs provide some extra benefit in substrate or environment for the taste? I'm now curious about trying these, and I also wonder how they would do in a blind test.
The article claims that it does, because of the limestone terrior. But I don't have much confidence in that claim, because the author is obviously at pains to make this mushroom sound as special as possible for the sake of a story, calling it a "unique species" when it is just another cultivated variety of the same old Agaricus bisporus.
The mushrooms are imported from China or Poland as mycelium, and the harvest is done in France. Since the law distinguishes between mycelium and mushroom, the mushroom were technically produced in France.
I read "mushrooms" as "museums" and thought this is about the catacombs where they stored all the human bones, because the cemeteries were full... It's open for public tours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CfazQ2P8D8
I've been there, and thinking back to it, the amount of bones is horrific. Each skull used to have a brain in it, and was an individual...
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Terroir means earth, hence land (as in Terra for the name of planet Earth). Every peasant everywhere throughout all time understood and understands that the local soil and conditions affect the final agricultural product.
There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word.
The simplest way I could describe this word as we use it in france is "a region along with its traditions and local peculiarities". So yes, the earth is part of it, but the culture, the traditions, the people, the crops, are part of the terroir.
For example, anyone can grow ducks. But the southeast of France has a long tradition of duck breeding and food products made of ducks, and is renowned for it. There is knowledge and craftmanship involved in the notion of terroir.
Or, hunters will often turn their game into terrine (i'll let you google that), and pretty much anyone will make it roughly the same. Granted boar may be tastier in the south due to the sun and the soil, but I have really no idea. But the notion of terroir enters there because each region will add its own twist; like the cognac region often making "terrines au cognac", or normandy "terrines au calvados".
Another example is "saucisson" or dry sausage. Regions will often make produces of terroir by adding local stuff; like in savoie where you'll find saucisson with beaufort or other mountains cheese in it. Or in normandie you'll find barbecue merguez (hot sausage) with bits of camembert inside.
We tend to use the term quite loosely, and it's pretty common to hear about humans being pure products of the terroir they grew up in.
Again, English words for dirt, e.g. land, can be used for the exact same meaning. The word terroir is not elusive; rather this is just another case of upper class English speakers fetishizing French culture mixed with French cultural conceit all too eager to oblige.
Italians have the exact same concept of "terra" when they explain why a little village in Umbria makes the best prosciutto (it hits the best humidity level allowing for optimal drying rate). Or why not all the land in Montalcino bear the same quality wine (mostly due to the quality of the amount of sun/shade)
And the Spaniards have the same concept with their "Tierra", including to describe people's attitude from those regions (just go to Euskal Herria)
In fact, your entire message is basically the definition of the EU's DOC.
The idea that terroir is an elusive French concept is also incredibly Eurocentric. Im European (origin) so I only have European examples; but do you really think that advanced civilizations like the Chinese or Japanese don't have the exact same concept as "terroir"?
Terroir is very broad, including the plants growing nearby, the climate, the topography, nearby features (grown near a river?), sunlight, and so on. I’m not a wine expert, but I know there’s even further things which can be included, some contentious, like tradition / process, microbes, etc.
“Growing conditions” is a bit closer
Indeed. But “terroir” also encompasses things like climate, techniques, and processing (and therefore indirectly people, know-how and tradition). Not only the land. It’s a bit broader than just the place of origin.
1. Is the Paris Metro so shallow because of the quarries?
2. Do mushrooms still grow in the quarries? Has anyone checked recently?
3. When is a Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out?
The Paris metro is a mixture of deep, subsurface, and surface tracks. There are a lot of shallow tunnels mostly because cut-and-cover was easier and cheaper than digging deep underground.
Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels.
> When is Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out?
You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley (actually I would be surprised if he did not try, even though he might not want to put that on YouTube). They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently but it still is fairly popular with the urban exploration crowd.
I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles? Seems to be the way London has gone with the Elizabeth Line. Although that may still be shallower than Paris' quarries and lakes.
> You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley
I'm not that sure, since he does not want to do illegal stuff (like for the belgian test track where the factory is now closed to the public). As for visiting those parts legally, well, I'm only aware of a few instances where there has been the media granted access. But it was more for documentaries about how the police works down there, not for a general history lesson. Both the police nor the IGC (the french administration managing the quarries) will bother with Tim sadly. So yes it'd be up his alley if he could do it legally.
> They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently
It's actually the opposite. There's a constant cat-and-mouse game going on, and they're switching strategies recently, which I could experience first-hand. Current strategy is about prevention because they know they cannot prevent people from getting down there, so they're emphasizing safety and not hurting yourself because they "don't want to get woken up at 9AM a sunday morning because someone got lost".
The paris area is too crowded now, and for economies of scale, existing quarries are too hard to use, and will use old quarries further away (but not as old as the "catacumbs" to have larger tunnels easier to work in). Also, what's often called the catacumbs are quarries dating back to the middle ages, and thus are narrow, turny, wet, etc. Just a pain to work in.
Oh, and don't forget the dwellers that like to go down there, and would be sure to spoil all the crops.
Do the catacombs provide some extra benefit in substrate or environment for the taste? I'm now curious about trying these, and I also wonder how they would do in a blind test.
https://www.napolisotterranea.org/il-percorso/il-percorso-or...
https://web.archive.org/web/20240121180131/https://www.reddi...
Deleted Comment
I've been there, and thinking back to it, the amount of bones is horrific. Each skull used to have a brain in it, and was an individual...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_San_Gennaro
Aren't human bones human remains too?