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Posted by u/gooob 2 years ago
Ask HN: What would you spend your time working on if you didn't need money?
basically what would your ideal job be, in an ideal world? would you contribute towards making society more rational, healthy, and well-coordinated? or do you have better ideas? sorry if this is a silly question just a random thought.
natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
I would devote my time to building high quality, durable, and energy efficient 3bd 2ba homes in the rural areas surrounding major metropolitan areas, which I would then sell at material cost.

Buying my first home (mobile/manufactured) has been a combination of the best and worst thing I've ever done. The house cost nearly 3 times what my grandparents paid about ~30 years ago in the same neighborhood (on the same street!) while the construction and finish quality are sub-par at best, with a nearly endless list of things that are constantly in need of repair, multiple water intrusion issues, etc. To make matters worse, the housing market in the area I live has reached unreasonable levels, with my current home being 'valued' at 1.4x what I bought it for roughly 3 years ago.

Additionally, I keep seeing homes built that are on monolithic slabs and nearly everyone I know personally who is a homeowner is having issues with their home's foundation due to the high movement soil (clay) even in recently built homes. I would build homes that use pier and beam foundations with piles deep enough to resist soil movement, ensure site drainage was appropriate for each home, and generally put all the necessary care and work into ensuring that each home built would last for multiple generations.

I want to build homes that last and allow others to flourish without the litany of concerns I currently have to struggle with on-top of my day job.

gary_0 · 2 years ago
Good answer! It's a massive societal failure that so few people are able to own a good house these days. It's 2024, we can build microchips virtually atom-by-atom, we can have plain English conversations with our computers about almost any topic, the number of billionaires has grown 20-fold since the 1980's, but the basic human need for shelter is a problem that is getting less solved by the day. It's perverse.
natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
I completely agree. The incentives have aligned against the average home buyer receiving a good home, at multiple levels. Between the fundamental change in how homes are financed allowing for other market conditions to exaggerate the cost of homes and the decline of skilled labor interest / accessibility to young people such as myself... we have a state of affairs that makes a basic thing such as home ownership a significant problem for future generations.
ActorNightly · 2 years ago
Ive actually did some market research into this. Turnkey container houses, built out on trailers (with enough facade to make it look good, but since its not a permanent dwelling you don't have to pay property tax on it).

The big issue that I found is that people aren't actually interested in cheap houses, they just want something that is affordable at a discount but will grow in value, just like their parents did.

natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
There is a lot of nuances to the issues I want to address, but you seem to be mistaking my fundamental goals. I don't want to "change" the housing market, or even build cheap houses.

If the market says the cheapest house in a market is $250k then that is my budget ceiling for equipment and materials, while all labor is provided by myself and any like-minded individuals in a similarly absurd situation. The 'difference' I would be making is the invisible-to-the-market value created by putting the cost of labor and any expected profits back into making the home a standing testament to human engineering.

There would be no marketing, no sales pitches, no brand or company associated with the construction of these homes. Simply going from place to place doing my best to make an insignificant difference at a societal scale and a silent but substantial difference to the families who eventually occupy those homes both now and in a hundred years.

andrei_says_ · 2 years ago
I am actually looking for such a solution. Would you care to share some of the players in this market?
GenerWork · 2 years ago
I've gotten into a habit of watching homebuilders on YouTube/reading about construction methods (especially with ICF forms), and it's been quite fun. Lots of advancements happening these days.

As for foundation issues, I live in a Gulf Coast state 2 miles from the Gulf as the crow flies, and my crawlspace is so humid that I had to get it encapsulated. I have 2 dehumidifiers, and now that summer is here 1 of them runs 24/7. On the flip side, the deterioration has stopped, but now the joists and subloor are drying and warping (I was warned this would happen, though).

natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
This probably edges into the industrial-control level of automation, but have you thought about hooking up your dehumidifiers to humidity sensors to maintain humidity at a specific level rather than an all-or-nothing approach?

It's my understanding that wood rot occurs mainly due to frequent changes in moisture, the expansion and contraction causing breakdown of the wood fibers, while warping occurs when wood transitions between 'wet' and 'dry' too slowly/quickly/unevenly.

Allowing the moisture to increase back to previous levels *may* reverse some or most of the warping that has occurred, followed with a gradual decrease in humidity with an adjustment period between changes using the aforementioned control system may allow you to find a happy medium and ease the wood into a more stable moisture content without having to deal with squeaky subfloors and uneven joists.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

theGnuMe · 2 years ago
Where do you live? The county or city should have codes for the foundation construction. If those are not sufficient I’d start there.
natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
The codes are simply not sufficient. The codes simply dictate the minimum required to prevent significant loss of human life and property, but just as there is a vast gulf between "people dying and houses collapsing" and Things Are Up To Code™ there is too a vast gradient between the latter and Things Just Work™

When I first bought my house I tried to put in a warranty claim due to *MAJOR* deflection of subfloor in the kitchen and suspected water damage related to the installation of some plumbing. They refused to do anything unless I got the state involved; Literally they gave me the contact number for the state department responsible for ensuring everything was Good Enough™

Months later, nothing was fixed because according to the State as long as I can't stick my foot through a hole in the ground and get hurt there is nothing wrong. Never mind the fact that there is a slow water leak and the subfloor and joists are undergoing structural deterioration before I even moved in.

Had I known the headache this would cause, and known I could have taken other legal recourse I would have lawyered up at this point, but I was a young 24 year old with a 2 year old and another child on the way. I didn't know what to expect, I trusted the State, I trusted the builder, I trusted the realtors who all told me it was Ok™.

Up to code means it's safe to inhabit, not that you'd *want* to inhabit.

camhart · 2 years ago
On nicer homes builders will sometimes put cylinders of concrete down from the slab towards bedrock. Then they pour the slab over top of them. I assume this helps prevent the movement. Not sure how this compares to p&b in cost. Just another option.
natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
Well most slab foundations will have various types of footings that transfer the majority of the load to deeper soil that can support significantly higher PSF.

The slab part of the foundation generally is meant only to transfer the load of the house onto these footings rather than support the weight itself, sort of like a desk transfers the weight of it's contents onto the legs.

While this can help resist movement, it all depends on the drainage and expansion qualities of the soil where the bottom of the footer rests. If the area sees periods of extreme drought in highly expansive soil and the drought 'reaches' the bottom of the footer then you'll end up with significant movement as the weight of the foundation and home settles down into the void created by the now dry soil, while the opposite is true during periods of extremely heavy rainfall.

When you combine periods of extreme drought and heavy rainfall in close succession of each other on highly expansive soils, pretty much any slab that is not supported by bedrock in some way will be at risk of cracking due to the frequent seasonal movement of the surrounding soil.

This can be mitigated somewhat during periods of drought by 'watering' the areas surrounding the foundation, and during periods of heavy rainfall by having a properly graded home site that routes water away from the home in every direction. Unfortunately these are mitigations that require monitoring by homeowners who may not be aware of these issues at all.

Ideally prior to building any permanent foundation a core sample would be obtained from the site and analyzed to determine the footer depth necessary to compensate for the 'worst case' rainfall and temperature fluctuation in that region, additionally accounting for local movement due to topography.

Except most folks building out in my area are just trying to make as much money with as little investment as possible, and thus do just enough to not be liable if any of the above scenarios conspire to create problems for their long-since-forgotten customers.

andrei_says_ · 2 years ago
I am reading this and I hope you find ways to engage in building homes! I sense true care and from true care arise true actions and the great satisfaction of doing a job right.

I want more homes in the world built by people like you.

natpalmer1776 · 2 years ago
Thank you! My near-term goals are to build a new home for myself and then re-purpose as much of the raw materials that make up my current manufactured home to build 'tiny homes' for each of my two children (young) on the 2 acres I currently live.

After that, who knows what life will throw my way :)

ralphc · 2 years ago
This is me. Fortunate to be able to retire at 55, programming my whole life, I love my career even when particular jobs had their issues. So now I work on projects I want to work on, no commute, no 20-person meetings.

I'm currently working with a team that's recreating the Prodigy online service servers in Elixir. Having a blast, and I have my next project already in mind, also in Elixir or some other BEAM language.

On top of that I'm reading programming-adjacent books and papers, for example on Category Theory and lambda calculus. I'm going through my backlog of interesting papers I've printed off over the last 30 years.

So no, not saving the world but keeping my mind engaged and loving it.

Blackstrat · 2 years ago
Now pushing 70 and retired for 4+ years, I don't seem to have any difficulties learning new or difficult things. There's some irritation at not remembering some of the prerequisites to certain topics that you once knew well, e.g., all the old trig identities. But after 50 or so years, that those memories are somewhat degraded is hardly a surprise. As others have noted, they're still in there, you just have to coach them out and polish the pathways. I seem to have more pursuits now than I actually have time for. Right now, I'm working through a calculus/diffeq refresher to prepare to go down the physics/electronics rabbit hole. I've spent some time playing around with Arduino and while it's fun and you can build a lot of things, it's mostly about what. And what and how were the dominate memes from my working life. Now I want to know the why behind the how on many subjects. And the math that has decayed over the ensuing decades is thus essential. For me, retirement has been like a new beginning. Live like you'll live forever. You won't, of course, but it sure as hell beats the "Waiting around to die" mindset.
jerome-jh · 2 years ago
I would love to have time to study those topics. However when I have spare time and I could devote a whole day to study, I realize my attention span does not make it.

So to anyone reading this, my advice is not to wait for retirement. I am lucky enough that my kids now prepare and go to school alone. So every morning I have about 45min when I can say fuck to the outside world including work and pursue studies I am interested in. I can't study any difficult or new subject after work.

Progress is slow but real.

Thanks for the advice for note taking. This is something I really have to improve.

sureglymop · 2 years ago
Sounds amazing! Have you heard of/checked out Gleam which compiles to Erlang/JS?

Asking because if I was in your shoes, I'd spend all my time to invest in that ecosystem. I got a taste of it in my 3 month semester break where I was able to work on a lot of Gleam and Rust side projects. (Nothing to actually publish, but purely for fun and my own enjoyment).

ralphc · 2 years ago
I’m sticking with Elixir for now. I fancy myself a Lisp/Smalltalk style hacker&painter and like dynamic typing and macros, my current project uses Elixir and I’ve invested too much time & book money in Elixir.
markus_zhang · 2 years ago
Thanks for sharing. I really look up to people like you as I'd like to semi-retire around 55 too (13 years from now on).

I have a question for you: How do you assess your learning ability at 55? Let me explain -- I'd like to pursue studies in some Physics topics when I semi-retire (I can't do that now due to lack of time), but I'm not sure whether my brain is up to the job then. I know you are not studying Physics, but category theory is definitely non-trivial. How do you assess your ability to grapple with difficult theories?

A side question: do you exercise routinely, and if so do you think it contributes significantly to your health?

Thanks for any insight.

Vivtek · 2 years ago
My wife and I are 57 years old, so I think I can address this. We finally got the younger child through to grad school and paid off all our debt, and now we can devote our time to what we want to do. Mostly, anyway - I'd like to be doing coding for pay, but instead I do technical translation.

But in terms of study - academic work - we're free. She's got a PhD in theoretical physics and has finally had the time to start publishing, including picking up quantum chromodynamics.

I've picked up my original doctoral work, too, which was on hold for thirty years while I supported the family. I've had no problems whatsoever tackling difficult topics - in fact, I've had less difficulty. I'm calmer, partly because I have to be in order to keep my blood pressure under control. I think I can do less in any given day, but I'm not even sure about that, because when I look back at items checked off over a week or a month, it's about what I wanted to get done.

So putting off study until you're 55 is not a bad plan. Keep reading about things in the meantime, of course. Take good notes. Keep things where you can find them in ten or twenty years. Write down your daily thoughts. You'll thank yourself later, trust me on this.

ralphc · 2 years ago
For the most part I'm staying near my field of study, programming, programming languages, theory about programming etc. In that way, just about everything I see I can relate to something I've learned before, I'm in true "I've seen it all before" mode at my age. For example the pattern matching and recursion-based "looping" navigation is just like when I went through my Haskell/Ocaml/Common Lisp/Scheme phase in the mid 2000's, so it was easy to pick up. The only new part of it is the actor-based concurrency model.

My foray into Category Theory so far has been reading "The Joy of Abstraction", which is a layman's book to CT. So far what's she's written makes perfect sense and would be mostly obvious to anyone who hangs out on HN. Moving up and down various levels of abstraction, the idea of "functions", as I read this I'm basically thinking it's what I've been doing for the past 40 years, not a big deal. We'll see as I continue in it.

Circling back to the original question, it's hard to assess my learning ability since I'm not venturing out into totally new territory for me.

When you have a job it's hard to fit in as much exercise etc. as you want, it's easier when you're retired. But also when you're retired it's easy to fill the time with other things, errands, as you get older medical appointments, and motivation is a little harder since you don't have deadlines on your projects. Work comes in spurts interlaced with reading, which is important but doesn't move the projects forward.

I do exercise regularly, especially after the heart attack. "Make these changes or you'll die" makes a great motivator.

DougN7 · 2 years ago
I’ll chime in on this - my wife and I were just talking about it yesterday.

I’m mid 50’s. I had perfect 20/20 eye sight until about age 50, and now I can’t read almost anything without reading glasses - it came on quickly, but doesn’t seem to be worsening. I’ve always been a perfect speller (for the vocabulary that I use), but I’m finding I misspell 1-3% of what I type now (not typos). I’m also starting to misread headlines which I never did before (inserting words, misreading a single critical word, etc). It does feel like a tiny bit of haze is setting in, and I feel like this is probably normal.

brcmthrowaway · 2 years ago
Tell us how you retired.
mikestew · 2 years ago
I guess I'll find out on Friday, which is my last day. Poking around on computers has been good enough to me that I can call it quits at 60. What comes after this? First, a summer of being a bum (if I last that long). After that, more volunteering at the animal shelter, more volunteering with the local running club, and I half-jokingly say I'm going to be a professional trail runner (where I'll be paid in socks and cheap medals from my age group wins).

I'll buckle down on my mandolin playing, and it's time to pick up the fiddle and give it a good effort.

Read more.

Let's not let all that coding experience go to waste: I'll go hunt down an open source project that I could make some good contributions to, and then devote a good chunk of time to that. Or write something new that the world could use.

But beware: "if you didn't need money" is a pretty loaded phrase. As I stare down the firehose of money and realize it will soon produce only a trickle, if that, I still ask if we have enough even though we're probably better off than the majority of retirees (if various sources are to be believed). Because there's "don't need an income" and then there's "won the startup lottery, and my kids won't need an income", and we are firmly in the former category. :-)

aaronrobinson · 2 years ago
Im in a similar boat but about 18 months further down the line than you. I figure that even if I choose (or have) to earn something I can do something I love doing for less or something I’m good at for less time. I’ve done the summmer bum thing I plan to do it every year by driving down to the alps in a van conversion and running the trails. I recommend it. It’s easy to become overwhelmed with all the things you want to do with your time but it’s a ton of fun project managing them.
mikestew · 2 years ago
It’s easy to become overwhelmed with all the things you want to do with your time but it’s a ton of fun project managing them.

Well, it beats being one of those retirees that goes back to work because they're bored. :-) Thanks for the reply and the encouragement, and if you get to Washington in the U. S., email is in the profile and we'll go run some WA trails in the Cascades.

mindctrl-org · 2 years ago
> I guess I'll find out on Friday, which is my last day.

Congrats on today being your last day!

mikestew · 2 years ago
Thanks! Kinda weird walking out that door and knowing that when it closes, I’m not getting back in. :-)
swgarst · 2 years ago
I haven't worked in a decade, and my predictions about what I'd do were... bad.

I am not volunteering, or consulting for non-profits. It fulfilling or interesting, possibly because I wasn't invested in the cause(s).

I am not reading as much as I thought. It is lonely and boring to read for more than half a day, day after day.

I am not doubling down on family, as they are busy doing their own things.

I am not traveling constantly, because it is lonely traveling by myself (again, family is busy).

What am I doing?

I'm studying neuroscience at a local university (after working through chem/bio prerequisites). I had zero interest before, now it is all I care about. Surprise!

I spend a lot of time walking through town, aimlessly. No idea why.

I average 1.5 grocery stores every day, and cook needlessly elaborate meals for my family. Again, brand new interest.

2cynykyl · 2 years ago
I am quite surprized how few people are proposing to make art or music. Is this why artists/musicians can't make money, because so few people enjoy it? I always thought it was the digitization and easy access that allowed us to enjoy these things from our homes (instead of going out to clubs), but maybe not.

Anyway, for the record, I would be recording my lifetime backlog songs I've written. And probably re-recording in different styles. And perfecting every one, no more of this 'good-enough' demo stuff. I'd get all the needed gear and software, and have no more excuses. I've actually already started to do this, at the detriment of my actual career...sigh.

EDIT: now that I read the OP's question more closely, I guess the answers are skewed towards practical things that would make the world better...but impractical things like creative music and abstract art also make the world better, so I'm sticking with my plan!

schwartzworld · 2 years ago
I'm with you. To quote Todd Rundgren: I don't want to work, I just want to bang on the drum all day
taurath · 2 years ago
> impractical things like creative music and abstract art also make the world better

If you expand your definition of practical, it becomes quite practical!

kulahan · 2 years ago
Someone needs to spark your interest in music or art creation, rather than simple consumption. It used to be that we expected everyone of a certain class to know how to play a piano, or paint a scene, or whatever. I’m in my late 30s and went to a MASSIVE school, and I never even saw an opportunity to learn how to make music. At least art is a bit more universal.
ffhhj · 2 years ago
Because doing it is hard to master, harder to execute, and way harder to be economically succesful at it.
aaronrobinson · 2 years ago
So are a lot of things hard to master but execution is easy for most musical instruments. Just go and hire or buy one. I think this post is the opposite of being economically successful at things
gooob · 2 years ago
i didn't intend for the answers to be skewed a certain way. that's just what i had in mind. and i do think that music makes the world a better place anyway. but if you wanted to just go around and drink beer at various bars that'd be fine too. (btw i just came back to this post after forgetting about after posting it this morning and wow didn't expect this many responses!)
michaelbrooks · 2 years ago
I'd become a vocalist for a death metal band
aaronrobinson · 2 years ago
I haven’t tried art yet so I might like it but I have a few musical instruments to learn on my list but they’re nowhere near the top.
thelastquestion · 2 years ago
General infrastructure that benefits humanity in a goal agnostic way, e.g., related to energy or compute seems like a meaningful thing to get behind. This could be novel technology or logistics and efficiency improvements, but these are things that can augment everyone's ability to do the things they want.

Socially, there are a lot of things that seem "silly" (euphemistically), and it's a blight on civilization that they are tolerated. That people in my country (USA, but can apply to many countries in the world) are homeless or starving is silly; if you were running a country, ensuring the citizenry have food and shelter might be an obvious top priority. The world can seem really complex at times and our systems become so convoluted that people rationalize why the things that seem obviously silly are too difficult to solve or worthwhile tradeoffs. I think it's generally a good heuristic to avoid doing things that seem obviously silly and fix the things that are (that is, it's often better to be naive about it!).

This portion of the comment is not a direct answer to the question but a related thought others may have further insights about. Practically, a situation in which you don't need money rarely materializes instantaneously; it usually arises from circumstances that have constituted a great deal of your life and identity. As a consequence of this, I think ego can become a real challenge that prevents people from pursuing possible "ideals". If you've been in a certain kind of position for a long time, there can be psychological barriers to pursuing something in a way in which, e.g., you are a true beginner or have less control. This tends to be something that can dissipate with age but can be especially difficult for people who've achieved financial success well before standard retirement age.

aaronrobinson · 2 years ago
You’re absolute right in some respects on your last point. You need to seize the day. So many people delay retirement too long for fear of not being financially protected to age they probably won’t last to, meanwhile their physical and mental capacity are typically deteriorating.
CMCDragonkai · 2 years ago
I don't think the US's strategic goal is to solve homelessness. In that between maintaining world dominance and solving homelessness, homelessness is way less important. Nations choose their sacrifices based on their priorities same as individuals.
thelastquestion · 2 years ago
Let’s assume that world dominance is the root priority. Your statement implies that solving homelessness wouldn’t be in service of world domination. That might be true, but there’s clearly a minimum effort here: an entirely homeless and starving population would disrupt production, military, research, global economic power in a way that would be detrimental to the goal of world domination. Further, if the population gets too unhappy, revolts will occur that would hinder world domination efforts of those currently in power. So where’s the inflection point and why? To say the inflection point is the status quo feels intuitively wrong since what are the odds we happen to be in the optimal place with respect to homelessness, food insecurity, and civilian unrest? I tend to believe that it’s likely further investment into the population will produce a citizenry base that would aid in sustained world domination efforts. If you let the citizenry fall behind or become too unhappy, you’ll be overtaken by other countries. Curious what you see as the opportunity cost of that investment.
yashg · 2 years ago
I would just create software. I love coding little programs that make life easier. It gives me joy of creation. In fact that's what I have been doing, in last few months I have created (1)a video GPS viewer, (2)Windows based authenticator and an (3)online clipboard. After my day job and on weekends, this is how I like to spend my time. I have stopped trying to create the next killer app. I am just going to create whatever I feel like creating. Links to my latest creations (1) https://yash.info/camgeoplayer/ (2) https://authwin.com/ (3) https://klipit.in/
swgarst · 2 years ago
Subsistence programmer. I only code stuff I need/want: - scripts to help track investments - scripts to manage list of movies/TV shows (get ratings, actors, synopsis). - scripts to manage my computers - database to track my research interests
gooob · 2 years ago
that's the way to do it man. i have a handful a small little personal softwares that i've made for myself
bachmeier · 2 years ago
Maybe a better question for me would be what I would stop spending time working on. I'd continue doing what I currently do, but I'd cut out some of the things that come with the job that no sane person would do other than for the pay. For instance, I would still be doing research, which I view as very important, but I'd do more research and wouldn't mess around with the peer review process. I'd be writing open source software that would help others do their research too. I'd write textbooks and give them away for free. I wouldn't be doing administrative work of any kind, and I wouldn't waste time on a lot of the stuff I do at home.