As is the case with just about all tech service offerings these days, whether they charge you or not, my first question is: How much of the info it extracts from me to provide me with this service is it going to hoard and then resell to others for the sake of "improving user experience" or some other bullshit justification for extracting more money.
The ugly thing is that this vast privacy invasion and resell has become so pervasively normalized that even the fucking services which you pay for almost universally sell off to others ad nauseam anything about you that isn't nailed down.
Since this thing offers to give you personalized AI based on everything you see and do in your day, that's some very private, juicy info to resell.
Perhaps "limitless" refers to what they are allowed to do with the data/information they collect.
NB. Data/information can be transferred to other entities in ways that not meet the definition of "resell".1
In addition to transfer, there must be limits on _use_. Obviously a "restriction" like, "The company shall be limited to using the data to improve the service" is meaningless. Defeating privacy improves the service.
The CEO said on Twitter: "In fact, we built Confidential Cloud in such a way that only you can decrypt your data. Your employer, we as software providers, and the government cannot decrypt your data without your permission, even with a subpoena to do so."
So I think a monthly subscription is the business model, not ads.
I do think they’re unlikely to sell user data, but it’s important to note that their privacy claims aren’t true and it would be possible for them to[1].
This side steps the question though. Transcription isn’t happening on the device, which means your raw audio is sent off to someone else’s computer. Whether or not it is finally stored in some secure manner is irrelevant at that point.
They do make some effort to push the “confidential cloud” aspect of their product, where the AI is supposed to somehow operate on your encrypted data, but these days I only believe it when I see the white paper. It is unfortunately quite common in our industry is to posture as more security-conscious and privacy-focused than you actually are.
I’m gonna doubt they’re operating AI on encrypted cloud data. In other words, there’s no technical reason they couldn’t be listening to your conversations.
If these guys have accomplished homomorphic encryption they shouldn’t be building a wearable, they should be licensing their IP to Apple.
When I saw them compare it to E2EE, since that’s at least a specific thing that can’t really be misinterpreted, I thought they were serious, but turns out it’s not at all[1] and they are advertising themselves as being far more private and secure than they actually are. Considering their investor list[2], maybe this is more common than we realise?
It's all sent to OpenAI for the LLM processing, so you'd better make sure you're happy with them getting text transcripts of everything that ever shows up on your computer screen.
Especially disappointing given that before they renamed the company they were built on the idea that everything was stored locally. Seems like a pivot solely to gain from the AI hype cycle.
I really wish someone would make a pendant like this which is focussed on local-only use. It could connect to a mobile app or computer for transcription and summarisation, but using local models or an API key that the use chooses. I would pay serious money for a device high quality that did this (>$500) if it was backed by open-source platform/infrastructure for processing the managing the audio. Even better if it was written as an extension or fork of something like obsidian, or if the data structures were fairly open and there was an API for querying the data in interesting ways.
Recording and processing audio locally is something I already do. But there's absolutely no way I'm EVER going to trust a startup with this sort of data, any anyone in any serious job would almost certainly be unable to use it for work.
I guess the risk is that someone would sell a crappy pendant that uses the same software, but I still think there's a potential niche here for people who want something that just works.
I'd also purchase the software from the App Store if it was otherwise only available as a non-signed binary.
Yes, a local-only always-on recorder/transcriber would be a killer product. Combine with a local LLM for summarization, and a simple search engine. But there's no way in hell I'm paying a subscription for this, or letting some 3rd party have this data.
It doesn't seem like this should actually be that difficult to build an open-source version of, modulo battery-life concerns.
I have been wanting this since I first used whisper and saw it’s capability. Nothing you can buy off the shelf is sufficient at the moment and if you diy it’ll be too big.
I actually pitched this idea as a project for students on an MSc EE course a friend runs. Sadly none of the students picked it but we looked at it in some detail and it’s so simple that even the dev boards +battery + mic array could have been made pretty small (according to him anyway). I really hope someone with the hardware chops fancies scratching the itch!
This looks incredible. Site looks fantastic. In a perfect world, I'd pre-order immediately.
I sure as hell am NOT subjecting friends and family to being recorded and having those recordings going to some cloud I don't control.
Just this morning I got an email from AT&T about how they regret that my data was leaked but it's not so bad, sign up for this monitoring service. I have no choice but to use certain services. I can choose not to engage with this beautiful product.
i haven’t personally used the AI pin, but based on reviews, it doesn’t feel like these devices are going to feel productive until a much higher % of queries is answered on-device (without going to the cloud).
MKBHD asked his pin what he was looking at, and in the time humane’s pin to take a pic, send it up to the cloud, decide what model is most appropriate, and narrate a really long (possibly hallucinatory) answer; he simply took his phone out and google lens answered correctly with a lot of time to spare.
I know these are first-gen products and the fact that this one would presumably have a much higher degree of context on my personal life might make this better (without speaking to privacy implications). Still, over-reliance on the cloud and the fact that this doesn’t interface with my phone (where most reminders, alarms, messages, etc, happen) is going to make these devices a tough sell.
Hardware is hard. We would have happily done this as a native iPhone or Watch app if it were possible. We explored that first. But, unfortunately both iOS and watchOS don't support it. In particular, anytime you listen to audio (a YouTube video, phone call, etc) it turns off the microphone and you have to remember to turn it back on.
I pre-ordered the rewind, and noticed that I'll be upgraded for free! But my question is for the subscription, will there be any discounts for the pro plan?
Also, I do notice that the free version has 10 free hours a month of AI features.
How easy would it be for me to export the recordings, and use it with say Google Gemini Pro for transcribing?
Do you plan to add support for microsoft calendars and email? I have gmail but none of my work stuff is in there so I can't really make great use of this :(
Aren't there wiretapping laws that make recording conversations in certain situations illegal? I love the idea of this type of technology but it seems tricky to deploy from a moral and legal perspective.
I've previously worked on the Google Assistant from several angles, and this demo'd awesome, and I was very surprised. Then I saw it is listed as "soon" on the roadmap. Then I remembered the demo was very much a video, not a demo.
I might be jaded from years of bigco, and I'm rooting for you, hopefully you're already set enough financially you can ignore this, innovate, and already have teams of people demo'ing a solution internally:
As a company, you can't get trust back. Fudging a bit and projecting what you'll have when you ship is very tempting when the competition is this thick. Having this much competition also implies there will be choice, and given the use case, it's likely people will always opt for choices that appear more trustworthy.
On a completely separate note, I've seen many, many, teams of extremely bright people be funded for 2-4 years on things that you'd think "it can't be that hard..." and it turns out it's impossible. Not this specifically, but voice adjacent stuff.
Again, rooting for you, but a forthright version of me would have just said it'll never work as demo'd, and it's worth considering what impact it'll have long-term on your success if even just 20% of whats on the roadmap doesn't work out, you're already talking about it in present tense, and it's absolutely key to your user trust story. 20% is conservative in my experience.
I'm sure you've considered how the BIPA law in Illinois applies since it's one of (if not the) strongest biometrics privacy laws in the U.S. Could you share some detail on how you store and process unknown voices before consent?
You're wording in this comment (and the twitter/comment video) gives off the same vibes as the google april 1st videos for things like gmail motion (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAD8wFTLnQKeDsINWn8Wj...). I honestly thought this was full sarcasm at first.
Just a tip - consent shouldn't be a mode, it should be the default. Might want to re-think how you market the idea because done correctly, it is a powerful feature.
So you record people without consent and pinky swear that your software will “unrecord” after the fact? I don’t know if you can just hand wave that away… ship has probably sailed on anyone enforcing these kinds of laws I guess, good luck
Given how new this product is, shouldn't trailer focus on what it does and how to use it in daily lives, rather than showing off different colors and finish of the product? With iPhones, Pixels, I can understand this focus. No one needs to explain what they do. Not this one. This the first time I am hearing/seeingyou. So, show me what you can do. Not what colors or material you're made with.
Readit News
The ugly thing is that this vast privacy invasion and resell has become so pervasively normalized that even the fucking services which you pay for almost universally sell off to others ad nauseam anything about you that isn't nailed down.
Since this thing offers to give you personalized AI based on everything you see and do in your day, that's some very private, juicy info to resell.
NB. Data/information can be transferred to other entities in ways that not meet the definition of "resell".1
In addition to transfer, there must be limits on _use_. Obviously a "restriction" like, "The company shall be limited to using the data to improve the service" is meaningless. Defeating privacy improves the service.
1. Years ago, when Facebook was responding to the media with the line, "We do not sell your data", they were sharing it for free. Not to mention leaking it. https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2021/09/02/what-does-it-...
So I think a monthly subscription is the business model, not ads.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40044348
If these guys have accomplished homomorphic encryption they shouldn’t be building a wearable, they should be licensing their IP to Apple.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40044348
[2]: https://www.rewind.ai/about#:~:text=Our%20investors
Recording and processing audio locally is something I already do. But there's absolutely no way I'm EVER going to trust a startup with this sort of data, any anyone in any serious job would almost certainly be unable to use it for work.
I guess the risk is that someone would sell a crappy pendant that uses the same software, but I still think there's a potential niche here for people who want something that just works.
I'd also purchase the software from the App Store if it was otherwise only available as a non-signed binary.
It doesn't seem like this should actually be that difficult to build an open-source version of, modulo battery-life concerns.
That's exactly what this was (Rewind) before they renamed the company and pivoted to AI.
Deleted Comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39441654
I sure as hell am NOT subjecting friends and family to being recorded and having those recordings going to some cloud I don't control.
Just this morning I got an email from AT&T about how they regret that my data was leaked but it's not so bad, sign up for this monitoring service. I have no choice but to use certain services. I can choose not to engage with this beautiful product.
Yeah, nah.
https://xoxo.zone/@andybaio/112276682288723340
MKBHD asked his pin what he was looking at, and in the time humane’s pin to take a pic, send it up to the cloud, decide what model is most appropriate, and narrate a really long (possibly hallucinatory) answer; he simply took his phone out and google lens answered correctly with a lot of time to spare.
I know these are first-gen products and the fact that this one would presumably have a much higher degree of context on my personal life might make this better (without speaking to privacy implications). Still, over-reliance on the cloud and the fact that this doesn’t interface with my phone (where most reminders, alarms, messages, etc, happen) is going to make these devices a tough sell.
We are so honored this hit the front page of HN!
Here's the video announcement: https://twitter.com/dsiroker/status/1779857843895599383
And timestamps to moments in the video you might be interested in:
0:06 Reveal
0:48 Why Limitless?
1:39 Demo
3:05 Pendant
4:27 Privacy
5:23 Confidential Cloud
6:36 Rewind
7:12 Roadmap
9:25 Vision
If Limitless gets PMF, anyone who puts Whisper into an iPhone app will do what you’re doing basically for free.
Also, I do notice that the free version has 10 free hours a month of AI features.
How easy would it be for me to export the recordings, and use it with say Google Gemini Pro for transcribing?
Consent Mode makes it possible for the first time ever to only capture the voice of people who have given consent to be recorded.
It uses voice identification to determine who is speaking and verbal opt-in to make it frictionless to ask for consent.
Here's a direct link to the timestamp of the announcement where we show how Consent Mode works: https://twitter.com/dsiroker/status/1779857843895599383?t=26...
I might be jaded from years of bigco, and I'm rooting for you, hopefully you're already set enough financially you can ignore this, innovate, and already have teams of people demo'ing a solution internally:
As a company, you can't get trust back. Fudging a bit and projecting what you'll have when you ship is very tempting when the competition is this thick. Having this much competition also implies there will be choice, and given the use case, it's likely people will always opt for choices that appear more trustworthy.
On a completely separate note, I've seen many, many, teams of extremely bright people be funded for 2-4 years on things that you'd think "it can't be that hard..." and it turns out it's impossible. Not this specifically, but voice adjacent stuff.
Again, rooting for you, but a forthright version of me would have just said it'll never work as demo'd, and it's worth considering what impact it'll have long-term on your success if even just 20% of whats on the roadmap doesn't work out, you're already talking about it in present tense, and it's absolutely key to your user trust story. 20% is conservative in my experience.
For context, this is BIPA: https://law.justia.com/codes/illinois/chapter-740/act-740-il... and it's why Facebook, Google, and others have sent fairly large settlement checks to Illinois residents over the last few years.
https://xoxo.zone/@andybaio/112276682288723340