I am forced to use tuxedo for work. The laptops are chronically unreliable, with random freezes, shutdowns and component failures on a daily basis, even though we have recommended Ubuntu LTS installations. Their software additions are quite amateurish and the support poor. System76 or Framework are probably a better bet.
Had a Tuxedo a few years back. It would randomly get a black screen (backlight still on, just black pixels). Happens randomly and I've never seen anything in jurnalctl or similar logs.
The case was slightly bent from factory (did wobble a bit when on a table) I sent it in and the "fixed" it (they didn't).
I never was really happy with it and I was pretty expensive for what I could afford as a CS student (like 1100€).
My anecdote is a bit different, I got a Tuxedo Pulse 15 Gen 2, and during the first few months I had overheating while charging, keys that would get stuck in pressed mode (which happened even in the UEFI menu), and the occasional black screen.
All of these issues went away over time and it's been running very smoothly for the last 18 months or so. Everything just works, and battery life is quite good.
The feel of the keyboard unfortunately cannot be fixed, and the built-in microphone sounds terrible, but with all the other issues gone, and very little need for a built-in microphone, I'm more or less happy with it.
The state of Linux on laptops, including from OEMs shipping devices with it, is the reason why around Windows 7, I ended up using VMWare Workstation instead, with exception of a netbook, now gone.
WSL just made it easier not having to depend on VMware or Virtual Box.
The other devices get bought with WebOS and Android, just work.
> why around Windows 7, I ended up using VMWare Workstation instead,
Linux has gotten a lot better and windows a lot worse in the fifteen years since 7 came out. I'm forced to use Windows 11 for work and I have many, many issues with it that just aren't present in Linux.
I have a Framework 13 personal laptop and a work-provided MacBook Pro. I'd put them at about the same level when it comes to build quality: the Framework doesn't feel quite as streamlined (it's still very sleek!), while the MacBook has developed a finicky USB-C port that can't be easily repaired. Both of those issues come down to the design tradeoffs the two companies have made.
If you'd run Asahi anyways, seriously consider a Framework. You'll get much more for your money, and they have people on staff dedicated to providing a good Linux experience.
The presence of the numberpad plus the absence of physical buttons below the touchpad combo puts this laptop in my personal no buy quadrant. Those are probably non issues or actually positive features for most people (especially the buttons) but let me promote my preferences. I'm waiting for a touchpad with buttons module for the Framework laptop, then I could buy that laptop.
Same, moving the alpha cluster off-center drives me crazy not just in laptops, but also on desktop setups. It’s uncomfortable and awkward.
Not that people who like numpads shouldn’t also have the option, but it really should be an option. As a sibling comment notes, the Framework 16 does this but traditional laptops ought to do it too.
Larger laptops practically always have a numpad though. I think the last ~17” laptop I saw without one was the 17” MBP, which was discontinued over a decade ago.
If only anyone offered laptops with ortholinear keyboards, then you could have centered alphas and a numpad on a layer without it being weirdly aligned.
Framework was prototyping an ortho keyboard module but it never came to market.
For me personally, I want off the Thinkpad train, but I don't think I can get a new laptop with a trackpoint, 3 physical buttons, and a good high-res matte screen elsewhere right now.
i'm using the x2100 which arguably doesn't fit your desiderata around 'new' and 'not thinkpad' depending on which way you look at it, but otherwise is sadly the best available option in this segment.
- reasonably good (but aging) motherboard -- 10th gen intel, 64gb ddr4, pcie3 nvme.
- great 3000x2000 13" screen. i just put a matte screen protector (ordered custom cut to measure) and it's way better than many off-the-shelf matte screens
- fabulous keyboard. not mechanical but so much better than any chiclet.
- trackpoint. i've put in the touchpadless palm rest just for style points.
i really wish someone would produce a comparable 'actually new' laptop for when i'm upgrading, but the outlook isn't good.
>I'm waiting for a touchpad with buttons module for the Framework laptop, then I could buy that laptop.
Why don't you look into making that yourself, or finding other people who want that kind of touchpad and then contracting with someone/a company who could then make that?
I could buy a dead laptop like mine with a 3 buttons touchpad, extract the component and try to arrange it into the Framework, which I have to buy first and not use until (if!) I make the touchpad work.
It takes some prior research on dimensions, connectors and drivers. So many things could go wrong and I'm not sure I have the time and the knowledge to get started.
If I involve a company it's going to cost a lot of money.
If somebody kickstarters it I'll support the project.
To me, 'tap to click' mode is much better, as it is not necessary to have a finger on the button. But it really comes down to personal preference, I guess.
When I was messing around with the Acme editor from Plan9 I found the 3 physical buttons on the Dell Latitude series and old Thinkpads, very much to my liking.
I've been using an ASUS TUF A16 Advantage edition (I think "Advantage" is the ASUS branding for an all-AMD version) as a Linux-first gaming and productivity laptop. It's really good! It comes with an extra m2 slot, and the RAM is easily reached. For $790 (on sale, Best Buy does them semi regularly) I got a 7735HS, a 7600S (not great but workable), and a really solid display. For another $140 I threw in 32GB of faster RAM and another TB of drive. Sub $950 pre-tax for a great linux friendly device.
It's an easy recommend for anyone in the market. I think they have higher spec'd versions, too, but imho the value proposition is really in the low/mid range.
I do hate the keyboard layout, but generally leave the laptop connected to an external kb as a part of the setup.
Not macbook good but okay. I think 4ish hours of real world programming use, at full res and good brightness (with games less) before it gets dicey. I use an external monitor that draws from the USB C port, so that brings it closer to 2.5.
Hibernation is absolutely not there, one other loss vs the macbooks.
Why is it that non-macbooks are full of odd hardware compromises? For example, as follows from the video review, this laptop has huge screen bezels, bottom-firing speakers, and a crappy microphone. Why isn't there a company that would produce nearly macbook-quality laptops (albeit without the M-series ARM processor), but reliably linux-friendly?
It would cost substantially more for a small-scale company to produce a laptop with the quality of MacBooks than it costs Apple. That cost difference would have to be passed to the consumer.
Additionally, a lot of these niche laptop brands don't even manufacture their own laptops because they're not even at the scale where designing and manufacturing a board and chassis would be financially viable. Many are white-label or ODM laptops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer
Major macbook compromise: glossy screen, no option to make it matte (there isnt even an official matte screen protector that is not for privacy in their store, and it isnt clear whether a glued on screen will damage the coating, or not fit when the macbook is closed).
More compromises: lack of ports, missing basic functionality in OS, very high cost for ram and ssd.
For the same reason MacBooks have lots of compromises: you just happen to agree with them. You cannot get higher than 60Hz in the air. No oled. Medium screen resolution. Okay-ish webcam only. Everything soldered. Heavier and bulkier than competition. No cuda, limited external screens,...
They're compromises that most people agree with, though. Like what's worse, having a merely 60hz display or not being audible in video calls? No CUDA or battery dies mid-day? Few laptop ports or horrible trackpad?
Especially trackpads. Almost nobody makes good trackpads except Apple. I don't get why.
The latest Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 on AMD 7840U are the closest thing you can get to a Macbook, with near-M3 performance and decent Linux support, while being much cheaper. My only regret is the soldered RAM.
Closest I’m aware of are ThinkPads, but be aware that build quality is not equal between model lines, that some models have less-Linux-friendly chipsets, and that some models come with surprisingly underwhelming display panels for their price (e.g. they’re dim). Most of the X1 lineup should be pretty solid though.
It's such a shame they got sold off to Lenovo, a Chinese company with a history of privacy and security issues.
Those things were built like tanks back when IBM owned the brand. My intro to Unix as a kid was installing a mail ordered copy of Ubuntu onto one! Survived years of physical abuse and reinstalls, and still boots up fine almost 20 years later
> Why isn't there a company that would produce nearly macbook-quality laptops (albeit without the M-series ARM processor), but reliably linux-friendly?
Because hackintoshes are much, much, much less common than someone slapping Linux on some random bit of kit. And nobody complains about OSX breaking or not running perfectly on non-Apple hardware. As evidenced by the term "hackintosh" itself.
It's very hard for a Linux hardware company to gain any ability to innovate when so much of the market goes elsewhere.
IMHO, it's nigh on miraculous that System76 is as great as it is. I would dearly love for them to be able to do more, but the reality is that most folks complain that it's not exactly what they want, and/or not exactly at the price point they want, and give their money to someone else. (Then they complain that Linux doesn't support their new Windows hardware adequately!)
The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software. Had they not, they'd have suffered the same fate. And we'd be discussing how much OSX sucks because it doesn't support the consumer Dell models adequately. (If OSX even continued to exist.)
> The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software.
Smart? Nah that was just the common practice at the rise of the Mac. IBM was somewhat insane for making such an open platform for anyone to play in. Yet, had they not done that we would not be having this discussion.
DEC, Amiga, Osborne, the Java machine, etc. all were basically just locked up ecosystems based on proprietary software not built for tinkering.
That's gonna be interesting to see, one-size-fits-all laptop for Linux. Watching how disputes on THE TRUE AND THE ONLY EDITOR still ongoing, Vi/Vim/NeoVIM crowd vs EMACS adepts (VSCode users not to be considered as REAL GUYS of course, just frontend devs or even traitors of GNU), do you expect those crowds even can agree on should be there blobs/proprietary firmware, SecureBoot and TPM/Pluton used in such laptops? I seriously doubt.
It does not matter. As long as a laptop reliably works with one linux distro, without any hidden/proprietary shenanigans, it works with any of them. It is then up to the end user to set up any linux they want, without fear that the webcam, or the speakers, or the thermals, or the sleep, or the touchpad will refuse to work.
Most of the bigger laptop manufacturers are now on 16:10 (Lenovo, Dell, ASUS) or even 5:4 or 3:2 (HP Dragonfly, MS Surface, Framework 13). Apple has been 16:10 since the early 2000s, only having made one 16:9 model (11” MBA). 16:9 is mainly hanging on in small/niche/budget models/manufacturers.
Developers and many other content creators have. I held onto a 4:3 aspect ratio laptop as long as I could when 16:9 was becoming a thing. I'm typing this on a 16:10 (2560 x 1600) ThinkBook. 3:2 (2256 x 1504) is also common for smaller laptops like the Framework 13.
It might not seem like much but the additional vertical space make development easier.
The only time I'll accept something wider than 16:10 is an ultrawide external monitor that ends up functioning as two side by side monitors.
For primarly gaming or media consumption devices I'm still fine with 16:9.
Still waiting for 4:3 to come back, as vertical real estate is precious when you're coding. Not holding my breath though. The market has spoken, and the market appears to want screens optimized for watching videos rather than screens optimized for writing text.
I'm using Tuxedo for the last year for work and it's been amazing. I've been using the InfinityBookPro. Their support is insanely good, they even helped me troubleshoot OS issues caused by my own stupidity, quite often.
In terms of quality, I find that the modularity of the laptop under the hood is amazing. I can tinker and change stuff with ease. Battery lasts ~9 hours while coding, browsing, watching videos, and video calls.
I will highly likely buy more for my company as needed.
Great video, Nick! I'm not sure if you browse HN much but keep up the great videos. I have been subbed for at least 3 years and I catch most of your content.
the advertising disclaimer did not cover the question, "did they send you the test unit for free? do you get to keep it? or did you go out to buy it so you are sure you did not get a selected unit?" Because if you can only afford these tests if the unit is provided to you, the channel would not exactly be fine without their support, even if you have enough other companies sending units to keep you busy.
I'm not that price sensitive personally, but I wish this thing had a trackpoint.
I'm not Nick but I feel I have watched his channel long enough to answer these questions.
> did they send you the test unit for free? do you get to keep it? or did you go out to buy it so you are sure you did not get a selected unit?
Most of the review units for the dozens of different Linux laptops he reviews are temporary units he has to send back. Sometimes they are pre-production runs, sometimes regular consumer runs, etc. I believe he did buy a Tuxedo Slimbook a few years ago out of pocket separate from the products of theirs he has reviewed on the channel.
Nick is legit though. If there is a problem with a laptop he mentions it. If the laptop is nice but pretty high priced he mentions it. If it has failures because the people making it didn't actually "try to use it" he mentions that.
> Because if you can only afford these tests if the unit is provided to you, the channel would not exactly be fine without their support
There are a lot of ways it could be done. By no means do we need companies to send review units to YouTubers. They are doing this because THEY are competing to get their product seen. If they are stupid enough to stop interacting with the communities that build the worlds around their products we will (a) continue to look at products by companies that aren't that stupid and (b) crowdsource the products and information ourselves. I would be willing to get say a 30% discount on a laptop if Nick wants to get it shipped to him first for review.
Readit News
The case was slightly bent from factory (did wobble a bit when on a table) I sent it in and the "fixed" it (they didn't).
I never was really happy with it and I was pretty expensive for what I could afford as a CS student (like 1100€).
All of these issues went away over time and it's been running very smoothly for the last 18 months or so. Everything just works, and battery life is quite good.
The feel of the keyboard unfortunately cannot be fixed, and the built-in microphone sounds terrible, but with all the other issues gone, and very little need for a built-in microphone, I'm more or less happy with it.
WSL just made it easier not having to depend on VMware or Virtual Box.
The other devices get bought with WebOS and Android, just work.
Linux has gotten a lot better and windows a lot worse in the fifteen years since 7 came out. I'm forced to use Windows 11 for work and I have many, many issues with it that just aren't present in Linux.
But it’s light and capable.
Still I’ll likely get a MacBook and run Asahi for my home laptop as the build quality is still the best in the industry.
If you'd run Asahi anyways, seriously consider a Framework. You'll get much more for your money, and they have people on staff dedicated to providing a good Linux experience.
Which is related to the presence of a numberpad. Not that I care about a number pad, but I dislike it making everything to the side of the screen.
Not that people who like numpads shouldn’t also have the option, but it really should be an option. As a sibling comment notes, the Framework 16 does this but traditional laptops ought to do it too.
Larger laptops practically always have a numpad though. I think the last ~17” laptop I saw without one was the 17” MBP, which was discontinued over a decade ago.
- no tenkey - arrow keys not laid out in a T configuration
A close 3rd is trying to cram more than just ctrl/meta(window)/alt keys to the left of the spacebar.
preference is a hell of a drug :)
Framework was prototyping an ortho keyboard module but it never came to market.
- reasonably good (but aging) motherboard -- 10th gen intel, 64gb ddr4, pcie3 nvme.
- great 3000x2000 13" screen. i just put a matte screen protector (ordered custom cut to measure) and it's way better than many off-the-shelf matte screens
- fabulous keyboard. not mechanical but so much better than any chiclet.
- trackpoint. i've put in the touchpadless palm rest just for style points.
i really wish someone would produce a comparable 'actually new' laptop for when i'm upgrading, but the outlook isn't good.
Why don't you look into making that yourself, or finding other people who want that kind of touchpad and then contracting with someone/a company who could then make that?
It takes some prior research on dimensions, connectors and drivers. So many things could go wrong and I'm not sure I have the time and the knowledge to get started.
If I involve a company it's going to cost a lot of money.
If somebody kickstarters it I'll support the project.
It's an easy recommend for anyone in the market. I think they have higher spec'd versions, too, but imho the value proposition is really in the low/mid range.
I do hate the keyboard layout, but generally leave the laptop connected to an external kb as a part of the setup.
Hibernation is absolutely not there, one other loss vs the macbooks.
I don't know how well it will run linux (Pop to be specific) but I've got 3 other Minisforum AMD machines and they all run Pop great!
It would cost substantially more for a small-scale company to produce a laptop with the quality of MacBooks than it costs Apple. That cost difference would have to be passed to the consumer.
More compromises: lack of ports, missing basic functionality in OS, very high cost for ram and ssd.
Especially trackpads. Almost nobody makes good trackpads except Apple. I don't get why.
Dead Comment
Those things were built like tanks back when IBM owned the brand. My intro to Unix as a kid was installing a mail ordered copy of Ubuntu onto one! Survived years of physical abuse and reinstalls, and still boots up fine almost 20 years later
Because hackintoshes are much, much, much less common than someone slapping Linux on some random bit of kit. And nobody complains about OSX breaking or not running perfectly on non-Apple hardware. As evidenced by the term "hackintosh" itself.
It's very hard for a Linux hardware company to gain any ability to innovate when so much of the market goes elsewhere.
IMHO, it's nigh on miraculous that System76 is as great as it is. I would dearly love for them to be able to do more, but the reality is that most folks complain that it's not exactly what they want, and/or not exactly at the price point they want, and give their money to someone else. (Then they complain that Linux doesn't support their new Windows hardware adequately!)
The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software. Had they not, they'd have suffered the same fate. And we'd be discussing how much OSX sucks because it doesn't support the consumer Dell models adequately. (If OSX even continued to exist.)
Smart? Nah that was just the common practice at the rise of the Mac. IBM was somewhat insane for making such an open platform for anyone to play in. Yet, had they not done that we would not be having this discussion.
DEC, Amiga, Osborne, the Java machine, etc. all were basically just locked up ecosystems based on proprietary software not built for tinkering.
That's gonna be interesting to see, one-size-fits-all laptop for Linux. Watching how disputes on THE TRUE AND THE ONLY EDITOR still ongoing, Vi/Vim/NeoVIM crowd vs EMACS adepts (VSCode users not to be considered as REAL GUYS of course, just frontend devs or even traitors of GNU), do you expect those crowds even can agree on should be there blobs/proprietary firmware, SecureBoot and TPM/Pluton used in such laptops? I seriously doubt.
Sorry, had to say it. Has the world really moved on from 16:9? I only buy used thinkpads and am t420 and t470s deep into the 16:9 era.
It might not seem like much but the additional vertical space make development easier.
The only time I'll accept something wider than 16:10 is an ultrawide external monitor that ends up functioning as two side by side monitors.
For primarly gaming or media consumption devices I'm still fine with 16:9.
In terms of quality, I find that the modularity of the laptop under the hood is amazing. I can tinker and change stuff with ease. Battery lasts ~9 hours while coding, browsing, watching videos, and video calls.
I will highly likely buy more for my company as needed.
I'm not that price sensitive personally, but I wish this thing had a trackpoint.
> did they send you the test unit for free? do you get to keep it? or did you go out to buy it so you are sure you did not get a selected unit?
Most of the review units for the dozens of different Linux laptops he reviews are temporary units he has to send back. Sometimes they are pre-production runs, sometimes regular consumer runs, etc. I believe he did buy a Tuxedo Slimbook a few years ago out of pocket separate from the products of theirs he has reviewed on the channel.
Nick is legit though. If there is a problem with a laptop he mentions it. If the laptop is nice but pretty high priced he mentions it. If it has failures because the people making it didn't actually "try to use it" he mentions that.
> Because if you can only afford these tests if the unit is provided to you, the channel would not exactly be fine without their support
There are a lot of ways it could be done. By no means do we need companies to send review units to YouTubers. They are doing this because THEY are competing to get their product seen. If they are stupid enough to stop interacting with the communities that build the worlds around their products we will (a) continue to look at products by companies that aren't that stupid and (b) crowdsource the products and information ourselves. I would be willing to get say a 30% discount on a laptop if Nick wants to get it shipped to him first for review.