"Today the review embargo lifts on the first AMD-powered Framework laptop. There's one of the AMD Framework laptops in the lab for Linux testing and benchmarking but unfortunately no review for launch day due to being held up by a BIOS regression and thus unable to properly utilize accelerated graphics until a new BIOS revision is made available in the coming days."
"Long story short, in a week or two should be the Linux review and benchmarks for the new AMD Framework Laptop."
These 7840Us[0] on the Framework 13 are performing surprisingly well compared to other laptops carrying the same CPU on Geekbench. Almost as good as the 7940HS[1].
If you read the whitepaper[0], you'd notice quite some weird scenarios. Take the compression (it uses zstd, which a major prop), however it compresses some 10k small files of a total 75MB. Compressing small files individually is just pointless, ztsd is not an archiver (I suppose the compressor/decompressors are re-created for each file, too). The total size is just tiny as well. Then it uses a virtual file system with AES in memory, no idea how the latter is implemented but I suppose it lays entirely in the userland.
Due to small sizes, the workload would be very L2/L3 sensitive - however it doesn't represent any common way that compression is used in practice, esp. zstd.
I don't see why a CPU test should be only about number crunching, and not about RAM and cache access efficiency, provided that the test is not incurring gratuitous cache trashing.
Also, working with a ton of small files is a typical real-world task.
Well, they usually ship unlocked CPUs, where other vendors often power-throttle the CPU.
I am not a "fan" of the fan noise, so I checked and the EC firmware was open source. It was possible to raise the fan tipping point to run the laptop hotter and more silent.
People have also tried to set the power clamping later. That works and is equivalent to limit it in the BIOS.
Key point is: this does not mean you have to run it that way. Add a power profile, l configure the fan curve, enjoy.
Fan noise and short battery duration were my reasons to return my Framework 13 12th Gen. I believed they were related: CPU running on max (without any reason), thus fan spinning high and short battery. On Windows I couldn't find any way to solve this issue, response from support "works as expected". Is there now any way on Windows to limit CPU such that the fan does not need to run?
Those power figures make no sense, I'm not sure I get it. How could it run for more minutes than the battery size divided by average power draw would imply?
That is be power draw at the outlet [0]. There is probably loss that occurs when drawing from an outlet that does not occur when drawing from the battery.
On the bright side as it gets old, it will be easy to clean out the fan or re-do the thermal paste on the Framework!
We have the first gen framework and while we haven't noticed any fan noise issue, its used to write a novel mostly, so we wouldn't be heating it up anyway.
The smallest 12th gen intel here. Yes, the fan is annoying. Reviews seem to suggest the 12th gen intel is the worst of the offerings, but overall I still like the laptop.
Switching power modes (in windows, haven't ran linux on it yet) does wonders for the fan, but can also destroy certain workloads. I often run DJ software and I can't use Rekordbox in eco modes. Have to be in ballanced or performance. Note that none of this is surprising. DJ software is not lightweight. With it running fan spin is painful in performance mode, but doesn't bother me in balanced.
I can't use some of the more power hungry features in Rekordbox without fan noise issues. Stem separation for example (newer features that separate vocals, drums, melody etc). I never expected to, those need beefy laptops, and I went for the weakest model (for unrelated reasons). It works in performance mode but the fan is really killing me.
Yes. I know most people are unfamiliar with DJ software, but it's the best example I have. And yes, since we're talking DJ software, the music obviously overpowers the fans when there are speakers and a crowd around. I notice the fans at home when practicing.
[Edit/tldr]: Battery saver / eco modes = no fan issues. Balanced mode = fan, but ok. Performance mode = fan is among the worst I've heard on a laptop. I still recommend the laptop overall.
I have a 1st batch framework (the first batch of the first laptop version) which I haven't upgraded or changed at all yet. (Hinges are on the list tho!) The fan engages sometimes but it doesn't bother me in practice FWIW. I'm a computer musician who uses the framework for DSP processing, but I'm also someone who is maybe more tolerant of noise than most so YMMV.
My base model Macbook Air M1 have a Twitch stream, a few dozen browser tabs, VS Code, and docker container running simultaneously with no fan (and no noise obviously), but I try the same tasks on my Framework and it's blasting the fan and the performance goes to shit as it starts thermal throttling. :/
> Framework laptops seem great but the fan is a tad too noisy.
Half that statement is true. They're not great, for a variety of reasons, and the fan is quite noisy.
The main thing I learned buying a Framework laptop and a Macbook Air M2 within a year of one another is how low I rank repairability among my priorities.
What countries in Europe do they even deliver to? I'm in EU, had to buy mine through a friend in Canada and pay double VAT because there is no logistics.
That's kind of strange too, the notebookcheck article shows the Ryzen version having a much larger runtime in their benchmark compared to the i7-1370P version.
Search for "Battery life", you'll see WIFI runtime at 726 vs 527 (I assume minutes) for Ryzen vs Intel respectively.
Ah, it was already mentioned in the previous thread too, that Ars review team had the ports configured incorrectly which resulted in higher power draw.
The notebook check power figures make no sense when you consider that their measured runtime was longer than what would be possible if the laptop was at idle the whole time. Their average idle power draw was at 6.5 watts, the battery is 65wh and the overall runtime is... 700+ minutes? What am I missing ?
Even if we assume that the test was completely at idle, Intel seems to draw less power than AMD when idling so I'm still puzzled by the run times.
Readit News
"AMD Ryzen Powered Framework Laptop Linux Testing Held Up By BIOS Issue"
https://www.phoronix.com/news/AMD-Framework-Linux-Hold
"Today the review embargo lifts on the first AMD-powered Framework laptop. There's one of the AMD Framework laptops in the lab for Linux testing and benchmarking but unfortunately no review for launch day due to being held up by a BIOS regression and thus unable to properly utilize accelerated graphics until a new BIOS revision is made available in the coming days."
"Long story short, in a week or two should be the Linux review and benchmarks for the new AMD Framework Laptop."
MacBook Pro[2] and Air[3] M2, for reference.
[0] https://browser.geekbench.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=7840u [1] https://browser.geekbench.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=7940hs [2] https://browser.geekbench.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=macboo... [3] https://browser.geekbench.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=macboo...
If you read the whitepaper[0], you'd notice quite some weird scenarios. Take the compression (it uses zstd, which a major prop), however it compresses some 10k small files of a total 75MB. Compressing small files individually is just pointless, ztsd is not an archiver (I suppose the compressor/decompressors are re-created for each file, too). The total size is just tiny as well. Then it uses a virtual file system with AES in memory, no idea how the latter is implemented but I suppose it lays entirely in the userland.
Due to small sizes, the workload would be very L2/L3 sensitive - however it doesn't represent any common way that compression is used in practice, esp. zstd.
[0]: https://www.geekbench.com/doc/geekbench6-benchmark-internals...
Don't want a repeat of Cinebench compiled with ICC or https://hothardware.com/news/antutu-mobile-benchmark-cited-b... and https://www.anandtech.com/show/7384/state-of-cheating-in-and...
Also, working with a ton of small files is a typical real-world task.
I am not a "fan" of the fan noise, so I checked and the EC firmware was open source. It was possible to raise the fan tipping point to run the laptop hotter and more silent.
People have also tried to set the power clamping later. That works and is equivalent to limit it in the BIOS.
Key point is: this does not mean you have to run it that way. Add a power profile, l configure the fan curve, enjoy.
[0] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Our-Test-Criteria.15394.0.html
Any real experience with that? AMD ThinkPads are surprisingly quiet.
We have the first gen framework and while we haven't noticed any fan noise issue, its used to write a novel mostly, so we wouldn't be heating it up anyway.
Switching power modes (in windows, haven't ran linux on it yet) does wonders for the fan, but can also destroy certain workloads. I often run DJ software and I can't use Rekordbox in eco modes. Have to be in ballanced or performance. Note that none of this is surprising. DJ software is not lightweight. With it running fan spin is painful in performance mode, but doesn't bother me in balanced.
I can't use some of the more power hungry features in Rekordbox without fan noise issues. Stem separation for example (newer features that separate vocals, drums, melody etc). I never expected to, those need beefy laptops, and I went for the weakest model (for unrelated reasons). It works in performance mode but the fan is really killing me.
Yes. I know most people are unfamiliar with DJ software, but it's the best example I have. And yes, since we're talking DJ software, the music obviously overpowers the fans when there are speakers and a crowd around. I notice the fans at home when practicing.
[Edit/tldr]: Battery saver / eco modes = no fan issues. Balanced mode = fan, but ok. Performance mode = fan is among the worst I've heard on a laptop. I still recommend the laptop overall.
Deleted Comment
Normally fine, but around my majority-mac coworkers, it stands out quite a bit. Silent 90% of the time though.
This youtube reviewer suggests that while fan noise was his primary complaint with the intel model, this amd version is much improved in that regard.
Half that statement is true. They're not great, for a variety of reasons, and the fan is quite noisy.
The main thing I learned buying a Framework laptop and a Macbook Air M2 within a year of one another is how low I rank repairability among my priorities.
Deleted Comment
you could do things like replace the thermal paste with liquid metal etc which may help, and that is easier on a framework than other pcs.
edit: Actually the integrated gpu is not as bad as I thought!
See here (different machine.. a very cool one!): https://youtu.be/66n1nylac0M?t=293
What countries in Europe do they even deliver to? I'm in EU, had to buy mine through a friend in Canada and pay double VAT because there is no logistics.
"September 14 2023 3:22pm
The Framework Laptop is currently available in the following countries and regions:
- United States (not including outlying territories)
- Canada
- United Kingdom
- Germany
- France
- Ireland
- Netherlands
- Austria
- Australia
- Italy
- Spain
- Belgium
- Taiwan
"
Search for "Battery life", you'll see WIFI runtime at 726 vs 527 (I assume minutes) for Ryzen vs Intel respectively.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Ryzen-7-...
I'm waiting in line for my GPD Win Max 2 w/7840 to turn up, to replace my long-in-tooth T480s...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37752950#37756186
Even if we assume that the test was completely at idle, Intel seems to draw less power than AMD when idling so I'm still puzzled by the run times.
IME Intel is a bit better at the whole power optimization thing when their chip designs aren't gobbling watts to boost performance.
That is quite deliberate.