The article touches a little on flight costs, but as someone who'd love to visit sometime and never has, it annoys me how flights to Guam work. Given its location most airlines don't fly direct from the mainland, so many flights to Guam are from Asia. But, you can't buy a ticket from the US with a layover in Japan from JAL or with a layover in Korea from Korean Air because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier. That eliminates all Asian competition and the US airlines get a monopoly even though they barely fly there and many of these flights are codeshares being operated by Asian airlines!
Flight costs are a pain, and the flight durations are nothing to sneeze at either. I live out in Guam (my wife is stationed here with the Navy) and the two most common ways to get back to the mainland are via Tokyo (Narita) and Honolulu.
I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) and those who enjoy its incredible outdoor environment. Some of the best snorkeling and scuba diving in the world is right here, and as for hiking: we've been hiking very frequently for the two years since we arrived and haven't gotten bored yet. Depending on where you go on the island, the terrain and plant life looks very different.
No Target, but there's a very good Kmart! Plus, anyone with a military connection has access to the exchanges, which are effectively tax-free Targets.
Most of the domestic tourists I saw around Guam (I was stationed there for a stretch) were divers. I don't know that I'd recommend it for the average non-diving traveler over cheaper-to-get-to alternatives unless it's someone who's specifically looking for the remote character of Guam (and in that case, there are less developed islands that can be gotten to more cheaply).
I thought about retiring in Guam someday since Medicare would actually work there. But I can’t imagine it is much nicer than Bali or some parts of Thailand I’m also thinking about (if my health is good 20 years later), and it’s definitely more expensive than.
I get the feeling that Hawaii takes all the US tourism for tropical islands.
In a hypothetical scenario where Hawaii didn't exist maybe Guam would be more popular?
> those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.)
I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amount of social media one consumes daily.
Yes, under current airline treaties it's actually more complicated and takes longer to fly mainland US to Guam, than mainland US to the Philippines. Even though Guam is only a short 1500ml from the Philippines, and:
Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at least during the winter headwinds, Nov-Mar [1]. Passengers can't even get out of the plane, you get to sit on the tarmac and watch the fuel tankers out the window for 45min in the predawn. I wanted to at least get out and see the inside of the terminal but absolutely not. ("Guam: the ultimate skiplagged challenge")
So you won't see this arrangement show up on any ticket engines, and they're not allowed say "Philippine Airlines flies to Guam". Are there any good articles on how current airline treaties affect routes and pricing in the Pacific?
[1]: "The one-hour technical stops are required during certain times of the year, particularly during the winter months of November to March, when headwinds are strong enough to affect aircraft flying westward across the Pacific." (to avoid exceeding MTOW)
This is because of 'cabotage' rules, where foreign carriers aren't allowed to sell tickets between two domestic destinations, and except for EU carriers flying within EU countries, this is standard practice all over the world.
Qantas has historically had a similar stop in LAX en route to JFK, although new aircraft will allow them to start making the trip non-stop, in an initiative called 'project sunrise.' [1] I believe they are currently routing that flight with a stop in Auckland as QF3, although they are running AKL-JFK as a 5th freedom with pick-up rights in AKL.
I don't think it's true that it's faster to get to Philippines than Guam from the mainland - you just have to transit in Honolulu. SFO-HNL-GUM on United is 14h15, whereas the non-stop SFO-MNL is 14h35. Philippines only offers limited non-stop options to Manila - just LAX, SFO and JFK - so much of the time you'd be connecting either way, and that eliminates any advantages. After all, Honolulu is pretty much on the way to Guam based on the great circle arc. [2]
In the past you could have made an argument about foreign airlines not being held to FAA standards.
But today, FAA knows exactly which jurisdictions regulate airlines to a comparable standard and which don’t. Denying cabotage and other higher rights to those airlines is 100%, as you say, naked protectionism.
You make it sound like that's a US-specific rule, but there's an equivalent rule in basically every country (with some exceptions, the main one being between EU member states).
Given that many foreign airlines are at least in part government owned, this could be problematic. Do we really want Air China to come in and drastically undercut US based carriers in order to drive them out of business?
You can also take the scenic route from HI to RMI to FSM. I can’t think of any reason to hang out in Majuro, but two of the FSM stops are great sightseeing destinations. On Pohnpei you can visit Nan Madol. If you’re into diving, there’s a huge number of Japanese warships sunk near Chuuk.
This. Used for American Samoa...just make damn sure to make your connection. If it's anything like American Samoa, there are only a few flights a week. The smart move is to arrive a day early in Hawaii and spend the night
you can but you're going to pay more in general. There are a lot of pricing rules around layovers that make it cheaper than buying tickets separately (basically to give the airlines flexibility to utilize all their planes).
> because any flight with a US origin to a US destination can only be sold by a US carrier.
That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement.
There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Island Hopper route, Honolulu-Majuro-Kwajalein Atoll-Kosrae-Pohnpei-Truk-Guam, among many others.
I think you misunderstood. They said US->US destination has to be operated by a us carrier. JFK->FRA->SIN doesn’t have a US designation and United is a US carrier.
I'm from Guam, and half Chamoru. Most of the comments in this thread show the ignorance that this article is pointing out — Americans don't understand the situation in Guam, because they've never had to really pay attention.
Guam is a U.S. colony that has benefitted from the U.S., but has also been overrun by Americans and people from Asia, so that Chamorus are now a minority on the island. We've long wanted to have a vote to decolonize, but this has been blocked by Americans on the island who demand to have a vote in a matter that should be up to the Chamorus.
As a result of blocking decolonization, we have been impacted greatly:
* Big military bases have brought a militarized mindset to the residents.
* Those bases were taken without asking or recompense, and drive up land prices, which drives up the price of everything else.
* The U.S. has protected U.S. corporations from competition (Jones Act, etc) which drives up the prices as well.
* The U.S. has set immigration policies to benefit itself, leading to a flood of immigrants who the U.S. doesn't pay for (healthcare, education).
* U.S. corporations have taken over commerce (think big box stores and chain restaurants), leading to a loss of the local culture.
* Guam residents are mostly in poverty, undereducated, with terrible health. You could argue that it's our own fault, but the U.S.'s unthinking impact has created a system that leads to these results.
There's a lot more to this — it's an incredibly deep topic — but I thought there should be a voice here from someone who understands the issues.
I have no particular opinion on Guam or its governance, but if Chamorus are a minority of the people living there (& a minority of the people born there?) it feels kind of unfair for them to unilaterally make major decisions and remove the majority group from the area.
Ex. obviously what American settlers did to mainland Natives was heinous and should not have happened, but it's less clear that Natives of the current generation should be able to unilaterally vote to remove Americans that are born here now.
Guam is the homeland of the Chamorus, and it was taken from us by the Americans. For them to say they should vote on what should be done with it seems more unfair. We're a minority because of American action, not by choice.
Guam is also a pretty large interconnection point for submarine cables. Not too many networks break out to layer 3 there, but more traffic than you’d expect passes through (or at least, used to).
I skydived first time in Guam. Also went to some CrossFit classes when i was there. The people were lovely. There were some weirdos too be sure, mostly in the bars, tho it was fun hanging at the bars with the military personnel. My conclusion: submariners - definite weirdos, "chair force" - cool in a tidy sort of way. Nobody else self-identified!
Overwhelmingly most people were awesome and the little island has a great esprit de corps. I really liked it, but there’s not that much to do, besides hanging out with folks and going to various exercises, jet-skiing, beach. OK, there's quite a bit to do, but not as much as living in a larger place. Which is OK. You can make your own fun. There's a couple shooting ranges too if you enjoy that. The Korean tourists certainly enjoyed their fully-automatic weapons when I was there.
There’s a strange juxtaposition between poor “local” areas, the luxury brands on the high street catering to Asian tourists, and the regular suburban areas. Clime-wise it's kind of like Singapore. Shopping-wise it's like mainland America, or maybe more like Hawai'i. Complete with sprawling malls, Dairy Queen, iHop, Pizza Hut, in a “tropical pacific” climate. Also, IIRC quite a lot of stray dogs hanging about. This was all pre-pandemic so maybe everything is different nowadays.
I was living in Asia at time so flights were a no brainer.
Everyone seems to drive giant utility trucks as well. You have to rent some kind of vehicle.
> As tensions with China mount, the U.S. military continues to build up Guam and other Pacific territories — placing the burdens of imperial power on the nation’s most ignored and underrepresented citizens.
Oh NYT never change. If the country never did, you would bet the NYT would have something like below:
> As tensions with China mount, the U.S. military continues to ignore Guam and other Pacific territories — endangering on the nation’s most ignored and underrepresented citizens.
Yea I recently started hosting a very niche game server in Guam (action quake 2) because of its central location.
It’s 95ms from Melbourne, AU, 110ms from Auckland, NZ and about 120ms from west coast US. Central US is probably about 150ms.
All of which are very close playable.
Living in Australia, as a teen FPS gamer it was always frustrating to know that no matter what tech comes next, the physical distance is the limiting factor.
As someone who grew up in Guam, that’s really interesting to hear the island being used as a workaround for ping times. I was always frustrated getting 100-200ms on games like Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament while everyone in the US had much lower pings. Then again, I was playing on US servers. Maybe if I was privy to people using Guam servers as a workaround to bridge the ping gap in this way, I could have used it to my advantage and had the lowest pings on Guam servers haha. I’d probably still lose though, but at least I wouldn’t be able to blame it on ping time.
Was born in Saipan, a smaller island next to Guam. Americans didn’t forget Guam and Northern Mariana Islands. It’s more like Americans were never aware we are part of America to begin with.
Hell, I got married in the States recently. My marriage license registration didn’t go through because my birthplace wasn’t a thing in the online application form. My wife had no issue, and she was born in a foreign country.
Readit News
I would definitely encourage visiting if you have the means! I find there are two types of people here: those who feel limited by the island and its infrastructure (no Target, no Starbucks, etc.) and those who enjoy its incredible outdoor environment. Some of the best snorkeling and scuba diving in the world is right here, and as for hiking: we've been hiking very frequently for the two years since we arrived and haven't gotten bored yet. Depending on where you go on the island, the terrain and plant life looks very different.
Most of the domestic tourists I saw around Guam (I was stationed there for a stretch) were divers. I don't know that I'd recommend it for the average non-diving traveler over cheaper-to-get-to alternatives unless it's someone who's specifically looking for the remote character of Guam (and in that case, there are less developed islands that can be gotten to more cheaply).
We almost retired there, but my son's health condition(s) precludes that.
Space-A is how we flew back during our tour there, and if you know the tricks it work great. If you don't it's a nightmare.
But maybe it's better this way.
I hate those people. I live in a city of 1.5 million (there's everything here), and it's a constant background radiation talking point for a significant number of my highschool friends: how unfortunate they are that they don't live in the nearby city of 15 million. IME this constant moping has everything to do with the amount of social media one consumes daily.
Philippine Airlines flights from west-coast US (SF, LA) refuel in Guam, since a 2006 "technical stop" agreement [0] (not allowed to pick up passengers on Guam, but can refuel and pick up supplies); at least during the winter headwinds, Nov-Mar [1]. Passengers can't even get out of the plane, you get to sit on the tarmac and watch the fuel tankers out the window for 45min in the predawn. I wanted to at least get out and see the inside of the terminal but absolutely not. ("Guam: the ultimate skiplagged challenge")
So you won't see this arrangement show up on any ticket engines, and they're not allowed say "Philippine Airlines flies to Guam". Are there any good articles on how current airline treaties affect routes and pricing in the Pacific?
[0]: "Guam replaces Honolulu as stop for PAL flights" https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2006/01/06/315333/guam-re...
[1]: "The one-hour technical stops are required during certain times of the year, particularly during the winter months of November to March, when headwinds are strong enough to affect aircraft flying westward across the Pacific." (to avoid exceeding MTOW)
[2]: discussed on https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/374507-pal-techni...
I'm sure Gordon Lightfoot (RIP) could have sung about treaties...
Qantas has historically had a similar stop in LAX en route to JFK, although new aircraft will allow them to start making the trip non-stop, in an initiative called 'project sunrise.' [1] I believe they are currently routing that flight with a stop in Auckland as QF3, although they are running AKL-JFK as a 5th freedom with pick-up rights in AKL.
I don't think it's true that it's faster to get to Philippines than Guam from the mainland - you just have to transit in Honolulu. SFO-HNL-GUM on United is 14h15, whereas the non-stop SFO-MNL is 14h35. Philippines only offers limited non-stop options to Manila - just LAX, SFO and JFK - so much of the time you'd be connecting either way, and that eliminates any advantages. After all, Honolulu is pretty much on the way to Guam based on the great circle arc. [2]
[1] https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/fleet/new-...
[2] http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SFO-HNL-GUM,+SFO-MNL
If a non-US carrier abides by local regulations, I don't see an issue with letting them run domestic flights.
But today, FAA knows exactly which jurisdictions regulate airlines to a comparable standard and which don’t. Denying cabotage and other higher rights to those airlines is 100%, as you say, naked protectionism.
That's not exactly true. It just requires the USA and the other country to have negotiated a Fifth Freedom agreement.
There are lots of foreign-owned airlines flying from the US with layovers and stopovers in other countries. For instance, I recently flew JFK->FRA->SIN on Singapore Airlines. And United even operates their Island Hopper route, Honolulu-Majuro-Kwajalein Atoll-Kosrae-Pohnpei-Truk-Guam, among many others.
Guam is a U.S. colony that has benefitted from the U.S., but has also been overrun by Americans and people from Asia, so that Chamorus are now a minority on the island. We've long wanted to have a vote to decolonize, but this has been blocked by Americans on the island who demand to have a vote in a matter that should be up to the Chamorus.
As a result of blocking decolonization, we have been impacted greatly:
* Big military bases have brought a militarized mindset to the residents.
* Those bases were taken without asking or recompense, and drive up land prices, which drives up the price of everything else.
* The U.S. has protected U.S. corporations from competition (Jones Act, etc) which drives up the prices as well.
* The U.S. has set immigration policies to benefit itself, leading to a flood of immigrants who the U.S. doesn't pay for (healthcare, education).
* U.S. corporations have taken over commerce (think big box stores and chain restaurants), leading to a loss of the local culture.
* Guam residents are mostly in poverty, undereducated, with terrible health. You could argue that it's our own fault, but the U.S.'s unthinking impact has created a system that leads to these results.
There's a lot more to this — it's an incredibly deep topic — but I thought there should be a voice here from someone who understands the issues.
Ex. obviously what American settlers did to mainland Natives was heinous and should not have happened, but it's less clear that Natives of the current generation should be able to unilaterally vote to remove Americans that are born here now.
Is there a dissimilarity with Guam I'm missing?
https://www.submarinecablemap.com/country/guam
Overwhelmingly most people were awesome and the little island has a great esprit de corps. I really liked it, but there’s not that much to do, besides hanging out with folks and going to various exercises, jet-skiing, beach. OK, there's quite a bit to do, but not as much as living in a larger place. Which is OK. You can make your own fun. There's a couple shooting ranges too if you enjoy that. The Korean tourists certainly enjoyed their fully-automatic weapons when I was there.
There’s a strange juxtaposition between poor “local” areas, the luxury brands on the high street catering to Asian tourists, and the regular suburban areas. Clime-wise it's kind of like Singapore. Shopping-wise it's like mainland America, or maybe more like Hawai'i. Complete with sprawling malls, Dairy Queen, iHop, Pizza Hut, in a “tropical pacific” climate. Also, IIRC quite a lot of stray dogs hanging about. This was all pre-pandemic so maybe everything is different nowadays.
I was living in Asia at time so flights were a no brainer.
Everyone seems to drive giant utility trucks as well. You have to rent some kind of vehicle.
Oh NYT never change. If the country never did, you would bet the NYT would have something like below:
> As tensions with China mount, the U.S. military continues to ignore Guam and other Pacific territories — endangering on the nation’s most ignored and underrepresented citizens.
Dead Comment
https://www.oneqode.com/guam/
It’s 95ms from Melbourne, AU, 110ms from Auckland, NZ and about 120ms from west coast US. Central US is probably about 150ms.
All of which are very close playable.
Living in Australia, as a teen FPS gamer it was always frustrating to know that no matter what tech comes next, the physical distance is the limiting factor.
So Guam is a cool workaround.
I used oneqode. Really easy, and affordable.
RA2 was my jam back in the day, migrating to RA3.
Hell, I got married in the States recently. My marriage license registration didn’t go through because my birthplace wasn’t a thing in the online application form. My wife had no issue, and she was born in a foreign country.
I've always wondered if anyone has been born on Palmyra Atoll, would make for fun trying to get documents saying as such
The problem is always the website and how they implement the address selection for US 50 states, territories, and overseas military addresses.
But yes, people will ask where I’m from. I used to explain where I’m from but nowadays I just say I’m from Hawaii to keep intros short.