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noelwelsh · 3 years ago
To me, making the keyboard more useful is much more about changing the shape of the keyboard than remapping a bunch of keys. An ergo shape and putting more functionality on the thumbs (see the Moonlander for an example, but there are a number of keyboards that do this) has done more to improve my keyboarding experience than twiddling what Control does.
TacticalCoder · 3 years ago
> To me, making the keyboard more useful is much more about changing the shape of the keyboard than remapping a bunch of keys.

I totally agree. One big issue is that many work on laptops and cannot / won't carry an ergo keyboard around.

The second best I found, besides having an ergo keyboard, is to use an actual japanese keyboard: laptops with japanese keyboard can easily be found / shipped. You can have a Mac laptop with a japanese keyboard, for example.

And thanks to the narrow spacebar on japanese keyboards and the additional modifiers, you get more modifiers and they're easier to reach.

So I use a japanese keyboard even though I'm not japanese.

Symbiote · 3 years ago
I think not working on a laptop will give far greater ergonomic gains than any amount of keyboard remapping.
csdvrx · 3 years ago
> So I use a japanese keyboard even though I'm not japanese.

Same!

packetlost · 3 years ago
There's pretty active "ortholinear keyboard" community that has boards for basically any shape you really want. It's not a horrible way to get started with PCB design either. I have... too many keyboards now, most of which ortholinear. The most important thing for me being split, it helps immensely with wrist pain. I might find myself picking up a moonlander at some point here too, they look really nice and the high adjustability is pretty nice
bikingbismuth · 3 years ago
I am an advocate for ortholinear boards. I have used simple 4x12 split boards (Let’s Split/Levinson) since 2017 and haven’t had any pain or other issues with my wrists.

It is pretty easy to build your own now as there are hot swap PCBs that don’t require soldering.

The worst part of having a small orthro board is staring at the hundred nice looking keycaps that have no home on your board after buying a set and putting on your base 48 keys.

ris58h · 3 years ago
> putting more functionality on the thumbs

That's why I like Mac keyboards. Cmd is right under your thumb. I did the same for my Linux machine, so win/alt/ctrl instead of ctrl/win/alt. It's a game changer and doesn't require any hardware modification.

thomastjeffery · 3 years ago
Thumb keys are the most underrated ergo keyboard feature. The thumb (and thumb knuckle) clusters on my Keyboardio Model1 are the best part of its design.
el-duderino42 · 3 years ago
As a piano player I don’t get all that obsession about the home row. I like (and possess) a good quality keyboard as the next guy, but that home row optimization makes no sense to me. Moving your arms is good for you, not bad! Look at a 88 key piano, people manage just fine to move their arms up and down a bit.
thomastjeffery · 3 years ago
Moving your arms, yes, but not your wrists!. Unless you want a row of keys stretching six times as wide as a standard keyboard, we are talking about entirely different movements here.

As a side note, the piano is infamous for causing injuries. A lot of work has gone into mitigating them, but it's not an ideal platform by any means.

What we really need to do for PC keyboards is split the keyboard into two halves and get rid of the typewriter column stagger.

IggleSniggle · 3 years ago
I’m a different piano player than who you are responding to, but I kind of type this way. I’ve never been a home-row person, and will cross my hand over the other if it’s convenient (or, more usually, just drift one hand onto the “other side” or up or down), but don’t have any trouble typing around 130wpm with accuracy (I can go faster but quickly lose accuracy).

Sidenote, but I’ll also do one-hand 5-finger typing on a cellphone screen, because it’s faster than thumbs even with the input lag. Or I did, until I got hooked on word-swiping.

I know I’m biased from years of practice doing it this way, but I still kinda believe that most people don’t because they didn’t take a few minutes out of their day for a week or two to really focus on their hands as they input. Instead, they’ll focus on shifting around their hardware and software, even though rewriting your wetware really doesn’t take that long and is far more portable. I even suspect that the 60-key enthusiasts are actually just tricking themselves into this kind of focus as a kind of oblique strategy.

Izkata · 3 years ago
> Moving your arms, yes, but not your wrists!. Unless you want a row of keys stretching six times as wide as a standard keyboard, we are talking about entirely different movements here.

Not really. It's the obsession with home row that creates wrist-twisting.

> What we really need to do for PC keyboards is split the keyboard into two halves and get rid of the typewriter column stagger.

I'm self-taught and instead use the edges of the keyboard to orient myself, and use my shoulders and elbows to move my forearm inwards from a very different resting positing. Not much wrist movement.

(for anyone curious, my usual resting keys are around shift/a/w/d/space and alt/l/p/[/] on a US qwerty keyboard, but it's not strict)

schwartzworld · 3 years ago
This response blows my mind. I'm not a piano player, but I have played stringed and brass instruments of various kinds since high school (over 20 years, sheesh).

On every instrument I played, there are fundamentals that are required to get beyond the beginner level. Without proper form more advanced techniques can be harder to learn, and even worse can lead to injury. Louis Armstrong couldn't play trumpet at the end of his career because his lips constantly hurt. I would imagine there are pianists with wrist or finger injuries due to years of playing with improper form.

So on a computer keyboard, the things you want to optimize for are speed, accuracy and ergonomics. It's not like a piano. Expression is not a factor. Nobody cares if you type staccato or legato. Home row typing is the most common way to optimize for this, but not the only way.

I don't use the proper home row, but I did learn to type that way originally courtesy of Mavis Beacon.

bbor · 3 years ago
Interesting take, I love it. That said - do people play piano for 6-8h a day? Or, knowing piano players and their … let’s say “determination”: after how many hours do your arms get tired?
NineStarPoint · 3 years ago
You have to gain a habit of holding your body and hands very specifically at a piano to not gain an rsi (which at the beginning does make you more tired, but like anything else you gain the needed muscles over time if you stick with it). Most people aren't that careful with their keyboard positioning and how they hold themselves while typing, so I do have to wonder if there's more to be done on the human side even with an unoptimized keyboard layout.
occamrazor · 3 years ago
Professional pianist practice hours every day. The main differences in posture, compared to an office chair, are:

1. A flat seat, without back

2. No wrist support.

url00 · 3 years ago
Do you constantly type for 6-8h a day? Surely even the most dedicated typists aren't going to spend all day constantly mashing on keys.
mynegation · 3 years ago
I think the rationale is that it aggravates repetitive stress injury. I am not a doctor and lucky not to have an RSI, do not play the piano either, so I do not really have an opinion for this. The reason I avoid the remappings because it messes up my muscle memory when I have to move between computers.
xkfm · 3 years ago
If you are going to do all this, you might be better off getting a half of a steno keyboard, plover, and use https://github.com/Abkwreu/plover-left-hand-modifiers/blob/m.... Essentially, it allows every shortcut to be typed in two strokes/presses of keys, and using only the left hand.

I have access to/can input nearly any shortcut, punctuation, modifier, reg key, numpad, number bar, arrow keys, etc all on one hand, and the system is very easy to learn. I don't care about shortcuts anymore as they are all nearly the same difficulty to input, and I never need to move my hand to do it. This takes only a few hours to learn at most.

Hitting ctrl+t on a keyboard once is more wrist/finger movement than I normally see all day using this.

hiatus · 3 years ago
This is incredible and something I feel I've been waiting for for a while without knowing it. I transitioned to an alternative keyboard layout (colemak) several years ago in order to alleviate some RSI in my wrists. I have a few questions if you wouldn't mind.

How long did it take you to learn this layout? Is there a sequential method to learning it, similar to using tarmak for learning colemak? A difficulty I sometimes face is using a regular qwerty layout—do you experience difficulty using a normal keyboard?

xkfm · 3 years ago
I am/was a long-time colemak user, too. Most keyboard layouts I've found I learn about 1wpm per hour of dedicated typing practice. Qwerty is really bad, but I don't have trouble typing on it, no. I can switch between layouts easily if I have to. I can type one or two more layouts around 30-50wpm as well. I don't have any difficulty using a regular keyboard no, but typing individual letters kind of feels like a scam now.

This system for the shortcuts is only a few hours. A lot of it is phonetic, and the numbers are in binary. Numpad is binary + *, and function keys are binary + r.

So if you know binary and can hold one of three extra keys, you now have three ways to do numbers and the only difference is one key.

Shift+num works for punctuation too, so you don't really need to know all the punctuation shortcuts. You just need to remember what they are on a regular keyboard and then its just sh+binary.

The other things you'd need to know are how letters work (the ones not shown), and the shortcut combinations, but there are not that many of those, and they stack on top of each other visually.

You'd just need a 10-key keyboard, or toggle plover on and off to use this dictionary.

If you mean the rest of plover/steno, its a drastically higher learning curve and is basically a hobby for me. Just being able to fingerspell (type single letters) is learning another keyboard layout. But this combines several of my interests, so its not bad for me.

Learning wise, I am a huge Supermemo fan, so I just use that to memorize/review the stuff that needs it beyond learning the theory (which I also review in Supermemo). Most people would use Anki or Mochi.

AmpsterMan · 3 years ago
Would be cool to get a steno keyboard for the framework laptop now that it's confirmed we can swap out keyboards
notbeuller · 3 years ago
Remapping the non-locking caps lock to control is a no brainer - and if you train yourself to use control-[ to get ESC, then you don’t have to leave the home row. (us keyboard - not sure how that works out in other locales, but caps lock should be eliminated everywhere. Or at least require turning two simultaneous icbm style launch keys to engage.)
tincholio · 3 years ago
I've been using the CAPS LOCK as both Control (on hold) and Escape (tap) for years now, and it's just wonderful. I even kept a similar setup when I built my Dactyl Manuform (one of the large thumb keys is both Control and Escape).
lylejantzi3rd · 3 years ago
If I were ever to design a keyboard with a thumb cluster, I would separate out ctrl and esc to separate keys. When typing quickly, I occasionally get an esc when I wanted ctrl. I've tried fiddling with the delays, but I've never gotten it to work quite right 100% of the time. I suspect my timing (how long I hold the caps lock button) varies depending on what I'm doing and how fast I'm typing.
grimborg · 3 years ago
I did something similar, but I mapped it (on hold) to cmd + control + option + shift so it effectively becomes a new modifier key that I use to define shortcuts that will never clash with any existing shortcuts. I use it to launch / switch to specific apps, move windows, etc.
Woeps · 3 years ago
Oh my.... I never thought of this. but then again, I use the side of my palm for holding control.
rgoulter · 3 years ago
> caps lock should be eliminated everywhere

Caps Lock can be a useful feature. e.g. developers may want to type CONSTANTS_LIKE_THIS; and it's useful to be able to have a "shifted mode" which avoids the need for either alternating shift keys, or holding shift key with a pinky finger.

I saw a feature "Caps Word", which automatically returns to the unshifted state as soon as a non-letter key (like space) was pressed. That seems a good idea.

That said, yeah, Caps Lock isn't so useful that it's worth putting where it is on typical keyboards.

deathanatos · 3 years ago
Someone always objects to the removal of caps lock with this complaint on these threads.

Two-shift caps lock is a feature whereby tapping both shift keys, simultaneously, toggles caps lock.

You don't need the caps lock key, and its place on the home row is absurd.

mrandish · 3 years ago
> Caps Lock can be a useful feature.

Being a Windows user I have an AHK script I run on every PC I work on regularly. It remaps Caps Lock into a special modifier key but does so in a conditionally timed way which keeps Caps Lock working as it normally does as an on/off toggle - but only when pressed and released by itself. If I use Caps Lock like a modifier key by holding it down and hitting another key simultaneously then Caps Lock works like a modifier - which I use to remap other home row keys like arrows etc.

This works transparently while giving me another very useful modifier key right on the home row without giving anything up. It's especially useful on laptops where I don't have extra modifier keys like my custom desktop keyboards but I now use it everywhere. Here's the relevant chunk of AHK script:

  CapsLock::
   KeyWait, CapsLock                      ; wait for Capslock to be released
   KeyWait, CapsLock, D T0.2              ; and pressed again within 0.2 seconds
   if ErrorLevel
   return
    else
   if (A_PriorKey = "CapsLock")
      SetCapsLockState, % GetKeyState("CapsLock","T") ? "Off" : "On" 
  return

  *CapsLock::
  return

  #If, GetKeyState("CapsLock", "P")   ;Your CapsLock hotkeys go below
   i::Send {Up}
   j::Send {Left}
   k::Send {Down}
   l::Send {Right}
   m::Send {End}
   u::Send {Home}
   y::Send {PgUp}
   n::Send {PgDn}
   h::Send {BS}
   `;::Send {Delete}
   -::Send {–} ; Alt+Minus = En dash
   =::Send {—} ; Shift+Alt+Minus = Em dash
   a::^a
   Space::Enter
   q::PrintScreen
   r::F5
   s::Browser_Back
   d::Browser_Forward 

  Capslock & LButton::WindowMouseDragMove()
  Capslock & RButton::WindowMouseDragResize()

orthoxerox · 3 years ago
You still need to press Shift to type the underscores, unless the editor is smart enough to recognize you're in CONSTANT_TYPING_MODE.
bbor · 3 years ago
Shoutout to vim - select the text then shift+U. Especially nice cause you can use multi select to do it in many places at once. I bet eMacs can’t do that ;)
ricardobeat · 3 years ago
Not a pianist, but I also don't get the obession with the home row. I can snipe the ESC key with my left ring finger faster than pressing that key combo.

My wrist barely moves for that action, and I haven't had RSI yet after 20 years. I do play the guitar though so maybe that gives me some extra dexterity?

EsportToys · 3 years ago
With the TPMouse script, I implemented the activation shortcut as [LShift][RShift][C (trackball mode) / G (grid mode) / Q (quit)], which I felt had a nice balance between deliberateness and easy-to-reach (since you are using it with your hands on homerow).

Though because some keyboards have key rollover issues with using both Shifts, [Capslock][<modekey>] is also allowed as an alternative activation shortcut.

[0] https://github.com/EsportToys/TPMouse

koprulusector · 3 years ago
I don’t use <CTRL> very often, if I think about it, maybe to open and close tabs in a browser or something. But I really liked “tap caps locks for <ESC>, hold for <CTRL>.”
awesome_dude · 3 years ago
> caps lock should be eliminated everywhere

BUT HOW CAN I ARGUE ON THE INTERNET WITHOUT IT????????

bbor · 3 years ago
I find it honestly hilarious that “don’t use caps lock for emphasis” is one of the otherwise very-abstract Hacker News Guidelines. A relic from the great flame wars of the past, I think…
bjoli · 3 years ago
I know it is a joke, but: In Linux it is easy make pressing both shifts into capslock.
thomastjeffery · 3 years ago
Put the shift key where it belongs: under your thumb.
l-p · 3 years ago
> caps lock should be eliminated everywhere

Caps Lock is a necessary feature.

I need my ÉÈÀÇ and I never could get a compose key working in all inputs, Caps Lock is the only reasonable alternative.

teroshan · 3 years ago
If you're in need of AZERTY-specific keys and you're on a QWERTY layout, take a look at https://github.com/qwerty-fr/qwerty-fr.

It's a strict superset of QWERTY, and it enables entering e.g. è and È with altgr+e and shift+altgr+e respectively.

piaste · 3 years ago
US-intl can do that just fine, though some people can't stand dead keys.
destructionator · 3 years ago
Caps lock is great when you are typing one-handed.
throw10920 · 3 years ago
inoremap jk <esc> is even more optimal - it's extremely easy to type (in QWERTY, it's under the two strongest fingers you own aside from your thumbs), very fast, and minimally invasive (unless you frequently type the string "jk").
vaccarium · 3 years ago
Caps Lock makes for a wonderful layout switcher key.
rho4 · 3 years ago
Disclaimer: Windows/PC user.

I chose the opposite of customization: I decided to train really hard on my standard country-specific 104/105-key keyboard layout. After 20 years I can blindly type every symbol, reach every key, grab the mouse and find my way back, thanks to those 2 notches on the letters 'F' and 'J' to position your index fingers. I bring such a wireless keyboard with me wherever I go - even on vacation - as I cannot work with notebook layouts or Mac keyboards. I'm confident that this keyboard type will be available to buy for a long time.

Not having to take my eyes off the screen prevents a lot of mistakes.

velosol · 3 years ago
Those notches are about to turn 50! There's a lot of patents out there for various hand alignment helpers but the one that is closest to what everyone is used to is 3848723 [1] filed 23 July 1973.

[1,pdf]: https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...

s6ro · 3 years ago
Same for me, learned to properly touch type with my language layout and with the help of notches on 'f' and 'j' to help me find home row. Being able to keep my eyes on the screen while typing catches a lot of mistakes.

When travelling I still like to bring the old trusty Microsoft Bluetooth Mobile Keyboard 6000 [1] (phew :), even though the laptop is a Mac.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Bluetooth-Mobile-Keyboard-6...

eviks · 3 years ago
But if cannot work without special hardware, why pick the worst?
tourmalinetaco · 3 years ago
How is a 104-key keyboard “special hardware”? And what makes it the “worst”?
msravi · 3 years ago
Seems to be mac-only. Please just have the README state that someplace. Not apparent at all.
veidr · 3 years ago
On Linux, I use keyd[1] and while I understand that keyd itelf could never run on the Mac, I'd love something that could take my keyd conf and make it work (even approximately) on the Mac.

[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd

rgoulter · 3 years ago
Kmonad is cross platform. https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad/
yewenjie · 3 years ago
There is also https://github.com/k0kubun/xremap for Linux
Blaiz0r · 3 years ago
It's included in the Dependencies section which unfortunately is at the end
mritzmann · 3 years ago
Funny enough, in most cases it's the other way around.
NoMoreNicksLeft · 3 years ago
I wish I was a coding god such that the limiting factor was how quickly I could send commands via hotkeys or the interface or whatever. Hell, there are moments that I have to sit there carefully planning out in my mind the sequence of actions I'll need to take to accomplish some task.

The rest of you out there, you're trying to shave 1400ms off your score by being able to use the homerow as if they were arrow keys? Fuck me.

000ooo000 · 3 years ago
Do you ever go to sit down in front of the tele to watch a movie, and right as you get comfortable, you realise "Bollocks, I forgot to turn that light off"? So you get up, turn off the light, sit back down, and then remember "ah I left my nice warm beverage out of reach". If you are like me, each one of those moments is like a little mental kick in the groin, and that's kind of what it feels like when I reach for the mouse to move a window or click a button I can't just activate with the KB, or when I have to spam Ctrl+RArrow to move across a line. I like to minimise those mental kicks to my groin. I'm not so fussed on speed, I just don't like feeling inefficient in that way.
TonyStr · 3 years ago
There are times when you think, plan and read code, and there are times when you just write. Getting fast and accurate at typing allows you to think more freely as you no longer have to think about the individual characters that make up the words you're typing
tincholio · 3 years ago
It's not about speed, it's about ergonomics. Minimizing finger movement is a good thing.
lawn · 3 years ago
Maybe the timing is taken from thin air, but +1s is actually very noticeable (it will feel super laggy if an interface has this delay).

And if you do this 1000 times a day (but probably more) you'll remove so much annoyance and it just feels better, more comfortable and at least for me it's easier to enter and stay in the flow state if annoyances like these are kept to the minimum.

eviks · 3 years ago
If only there existed other factors besides speed that would make more convenient keyboard design better...
rf15 · 3 years ago
Agreed. Also, if only there already existed (for more than half a century too) hard- and software specialised for typing speed that you could use instead of the general purpose system you have available on every computer...

Truly a horrible underdeveloped world we live in, that we have to hack together our configs and code to this degree and having to watch as no wheel in existence can ever be as good as the one I just now built in five minutes.

(terribly sorry for the bitter sarcasm, it's a pain point of mine)

andromeduck · 3 years ago
So I actually have a setup like this using a JIS keyboard Moom and Karabiner.

JIS keyboard in QWERTY mode with left thumb key (英数) mapped to cmd and right thumb key (かな) as a modal key that allows me to access a custom layer with:

- esdf as arrow keys

- w/r as backspace/delete

- a/g as home/end

I also map left cmd (英数) + esdf and w/r to behave like holding ctrl on windows. i.e. move and delete by word.

Used to have another mode with phone-like numpad mapping for number entry but never used it enough.

I then have Moom for window managment with shortcut set to ctrl + space and then the following hot keys:

- 2/3 set up for 50:50 left right split

- 1/4 set up for 30:70 split

- w/e/r for 30:40:30 split

- q/a for top/bottom left quarter

- s/d/f for even 1/3 split

- t/g for 40:60 top/bottom for vertical monitors

This is good enough for 99% of my cases.

manytricks.com/moom/