It doesn't seem to work like you'd intuitively think - Working doesn't necessarily spend it - seeing results, winning, can fill it up. Drudgery, working on a problem with high stakes and no clear idea of the right direction, having your hard work thrown away - those drain it.
Meeting people can either drain it or fill it, depending on whether you're an introvert or not, how much you're listened to and how much you have to get off your chest.
Physical illness can drain it immensely. Eating, physically relaxing can fill it.
I don't know how to deal with it. How do I explain to coworkers and bosses why my productivity is low, set expectations around a physical illness that has lasted two years so far? An going fight with a neighbor or spouse? It's too hard sometimes.
I got nothing. Guess the only thing we can do is keep our chins up and hope for the better times to come soon.
This is a really good description of how the "mental energy meter" seems to work for me. It's almost impossible for me to tell what fills it and what drains it!
Yesterday, I spent the entire day ripping out some rotting boards from my deck and replacing them. I tore out 4 16' deck boards and another 12 4' boards from the stairs. Then cut new ones for all those and put them in.
You wouldn't think that a project like that would take 12 hours, but there were so many little subtasks that had to happen that added up to a ton of work.
I went to bed utterly physically drained, and was sure that I was going to wake up today feeling like doing nothing. Instead, I woke up at a reasonable time and went out to my yard to seed some grass. I just felt like getting more shit done!
Meanwhile though, there have been times where I finish up some big programming task at work and then have a day or two where I just can't get momentum.
I like weightlifting (although I'm a bit off the wagon currently). Sometimes, I get a huge burst of energy and focus from a session, and other times, I'm gassed and dead for the rest of the day.
Same goes for socializing. Sometimes after an event I get home and can't shut up while talking to my wife. Other times I feel like I drained all my social energy for the next week.
It's so strange how little contextual things make such a difference in whether the things I do energize or drain me.
The best thing I've seen around this issue is that burnout is caused not by working too much (within reason) but by working on things which cause a conflict with your values. Those values might be anything - if you value using your intelligence to solve hard problems but work on trivial nonsense (perceived or real) then you may burn out working 20 hours a week.
In other words: hours worked don't really correlate to the kind of deep depression-style burnout that prevents people from working for years. There is a burnout caused by working too much, but that's more of a standard chronic stress response, and can be solved simply by reducing the workload, whereas value-mismatch problems will persist even if you reduce the workload. Value-mismatch burnout requires major changes in your life to recover, basically.
Being bipolar, I am acutely aware of managing mental energy. I’m constantly running on the edge of my limit to be functional in society. I can’t borrow energy from tomorrow. I borrow from the next fours.
It seems to be impossible to explain this. People just don’t get it. They are so used to having nearly infinite reserve capacity and assume everyone else does too. I have none. Every time I run out of energy, it’s laziness, carelessness, or a dozen other moral failings because I can’t possibly be different from them.
Fortunately, I’ve been able to convince people I’m doing my best and they are willing to accept something they don’t understand.
This is my go-to resource for explaining what it’s like to live with chronic illness to healthy loved ones. Christine is far more eloquent than I could ever be.
In my experience the real killer is doing difficult, but low value work.
It's particularly hard at startups, because every "pivot" is just that: a lot of hard work being discarded. You can try to rationalize it like "we learned something" or "at least we're not on that path anymore", but there's still a very real mental cost.
True, but I think it depends on the people involved. Some of us are ok with discarding a few months of hard work, and once even two years. Others are not.
I don’t know if this can be taught, but I can do it without rationalization. On the other hand, some of my previous coworkers left companies and had to enter therapy because of that.
And I notice that the usual 7 min chat with colleagues is a deep reflex to refill/reset your brain. The fog goes away and you feel capable of pushing again.
I don't know if it's a need to communicate pain, or find implicit emotional support with others.. or sensing the group doing efforts as a whole.
ps: thank you for mentioning that mental energy can go up.. most mainstream convos only mention draining. I've been very curious on how to maintain team flow and high levels of mental energy. One trick I find working often is relay work. I do something, when I feel tension, you take the wheel. Seeing you relaxes me, let me see how you handle things, can revive some mimetic reflex in the brain (oh he/she's done some progress, I want to make some too now) and just when you are now tired, I feel ready to jump in. Pair programming++
On the other hand, I always get irritated when I hear "yeah, I know I'm pushing too hard, but if I burn out I'll take a holiday."
Ha ha. You have not known burnout.
It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year.
I am better now, maybe even better than I've ever been in my life, but I am a completely different person. There is a pre-burnout self, and a post-burnout one. (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.)
Those that joke about burnout have no idea what they are talking about.
Burnout that occurs outside of work isn't talked about enough, maybe because it's mainly restricted to a certain kind of individual in specific kinds of fields like programming.
Programming itself can lead to burnout because it provides a promise of infinite possibilities, and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself. This leads to time that could otherwise be spent getting in touch with our humanity instead being spent on countless side projects, many of which we secretly hope will lead to wealth and prestige. Virtually all of those projects will fail or reach a dead end; that may not seem like a big deal in your early 20s, but the realization of repeated failure and time spent in relative solitude can take it's toll once you hit your 30s. The burnout feeling occurs, not because you are doing anything functionally different from when you were addicted to code, but because the novelty eventually fades and it becomes clear how short life is. Worse yet, you may have nothing to show for all your effort. One may even have had their social skills atrophy. Burnout can have physiological components, but most of it is mental. The negative effects of having a passion for code may lead to a sense of worthlessness. Feeling like you are as insignificant as a smudge of excrement on a piece of tissue surging out to sea can be pretty demotivating.
It has taken six years and counting for me to put the pieces back together after I disintegrated.
I kept going, even when the wings had been shot off, the engine was on fire, and the yoke had been replaced with a bowl of lime chutney. Stiff upper lip, old boy, we’ll be back in Blighty soon. Just a little further and we’ll be safely on the ground. The lies I told myself, myriad.
It all, ultimately, inevitably, met a fiery end - I lost almost every element that comprised myself, and all that remained was a bitter, charred husk, barely capable of functioning homeostasis, never mind running a business, or expressing any emotion other than fury.
Six years, last year. Started, for the first time in all eternity, wanting to do things. Wanting to play a game, to watch a movie, to spend time with friends, to do, to create.
It took me utterly recusing myself from the world, therapy, drugs, more therapy, and it still isn’t quite gone - there remains a dark shadow in my mind.
> (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.)
Ouch. I suspect I've been going through a low-key burnout for the last year, but (at least in my mind) I can't really stop where I am now due to having dependents.
Couple years ago, I couldn't imagine myself not coding after work. I would code stuff for myself whenever I had a spare half hour or something. Now, I can hardly get myself to even try. At first, it was about not being able to start or persevere in the act. In the last year or two, I found myself no longer even thinking about potential things to do involving any kind of creative work.
Enjoying cutting-edge tech? Sure, I've gotten cynical over the decade+ spent on HN, but it's different now. I recently realized I'm not just cynical - I plain just don't give a shit anymore. This got me by a complete surprise. I still find the (non-bullshit scammy kind of) tech intellectually interesting - but nowadays in the abstract, not enough to make myself get out of mental bed to play with it.
> It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year.
I'm very happy you endured and recovered. I'm also scared of the possibility of this happening to me, that I may be on that trajectory and already past the point of no return.
My slow descent of 2 years into burnout didn't go that deep but I definitely brushed with your feelings.
I couldn't stop working completely but I was extremely lucky to have a manager who jumped into different orgs of the company and brought me along to a place where she felt I would be able to move away from the toxic aspects leading me into a burnout.
Regardless I still had a whole year of extremely low productivity compared to my baseline throughout my career, bouts of anxiety and depression, aversion to any kind of social aspect of work (meetings, stakeholders' management, anything to do with people), it'd take the energy of a whole day to be able to keep a professional facade up for a 45 minutes meeting, etc.
I'm definitely a very different person, professionally speaking, after that slow descent I don't feel I will ever be again the worker I was before. I'm absolutely jaded by any corporate life, I hate higher management and it's definitely not something I will pursue in life, I don't want "growth" or "career paths", I want to do the job I know how to do well, be paid for it, and completely turn off any code/work related topic outside working hours.
Taking vacation with burnout was worse for me, because I basically wasted perfectly good vacation time and came back to work feeling exactly the same, perhaps a bit worse.
The good thing about it: it's quite unlikely to happen again, as you've also pointed out: one can become quite aware of factors (corporate culture, fear of disappointing others, perfectionism, ...) which might contribute to the death spiral leading to it.
Reading your post it reminded me of a dark year that I had some years ago, where I couldn't do any work at all, and similar to you, there's a before and after for me as well.
I saw in your profile that you're building a website monitoring application. There's a ton of them out there, and I also had one myself although I scraped it some years ago. What does your app do (will do) that the other ones don't?
Basic curiosity from an internet stranger! I too would like to have a small application that could provide me with enough money to live my own life (no big aspirations, no employees, just me, the product, the clients and added value).
That was my experience exactly. Burnout creeps on you without you realizing and only once it stops and you disconnect completely do you realize the mess you were.
> One day, sitting at my workstation, I stopped typing, stared blankly at the screen for a few seconds, and a switch flipped in my head
This was what it was like for me, but I also got filled with anger at the same time. Like my brain was doing everything it could to physically stop me from working.
I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get.
I'm in therapy and doing most of the self care things I can. It's keeping me afloat.
> I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get.
I tried this way for many years. Work hard for 4-5 years, then one year of relaxation and not working at all. Was fine during the year of relaxation, but at the end of the "work" cycle it always felt like shit.
What I found working better is instead being able to have the cycle nailed down for each day + the weekends. Absolutely nothing after 4pm related to work, until I'm back at work in the morning next day. If I even start thinking thoughts related to it, I actively push them away, even if it would be helpful.
In the beginning, it was really hard, as I'm used to just walking about and thinking about work. But now after a while, my brain automatically go into leisure mode at 4pm, and it finally feels like I get actual rest between leaving and coming back to work.
What also helped me a lot is to deactivate notifications of every communication channel ( email, messenger even the phone )
If notifications are turned on, it feels like other people have control over my mental state, because if an incoming email makes a ping it means that the person that just sent me a message caused my focus to shift in the work I am currently doing.
Even if it feels minimal this compounds quite a lot over the course of a day.
I really needed a week off in December, and that got delayed 3 times by 3 months of crazy overtime, and something in me just broke. I finished the project but there were a few days in there where it took real fortitude to keep going and put myself in my desk chair.
I took a week and a half off, which wasn't anywhere close to enough after that, and after a couple of aimless weeks back, I quit my job and now I'm starting a new one and I set up a month off in between. I don't know that it's been quite enough, but it has helped immensely. I'm going to be taking at least a week off per quarter for better mental health maintenance.
Although I didn't quit my job, having sizeable breaks between different jobs has been quite valuable. Time off between gigs feels more "free" because the expectations aren't the same when the break is finished.
I'd strongly advise taking the extended leave available to you. Think of it this way: if you’re just staying afloat but still struggling, there’s very little buffer between staying afloat and not; you very likely will take leave one way or another; you’ll be glad you made the choice and didn’t wait for it to be made for you.
>Dependable Drew, an ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on
I used to be the same as a student - always trying to fix all those broken people around me, somehow attracting mostly mentally-ill friends, visiting too many in psychiatric wards. I thought I was doing good, but I was just letting myself get dragged down. I haven't fixed a single one of their problems, I just had my energy pulled out of me. Looks like OP put himself into a similar position to mine... I learned the hard way that I am the captain of my own ship, others' ships will happily pull mine down to the bottom of the ocean. I have a responsibility towards my own ship and walked away.
It's a long, sad story (get your hanky), but I have spent my entire adult life, in a fellowship that includes some of the most dangerous, selfish, and just downright nuts people on earth.
I.e. really interesting and fun people.
But ones that often have little respect for personal boundaries.
I have learned to enforce my boundaries. I don't expect other to respect them.
At the same time, I have found that I don't need to use nukes to enforce my boundaries. Very often, a simple "No, I won't do that." is sufficient, as opposed "OMG! Get the hell away from me, you maniac!".
Also, and I feel this is a lesson that many folks these days, could benefit from, if I initiate a relationship with hostility, it is likely to forevermore be a non-productive relationship.
It usually costs me nothing, to initiate relationships with courtesy. The other party may still be an uncouth bastard, but control of the future of the relationship is now in my hands; not theirs. I can still maintain courtesy, and am able to avoid dunking the relationship immediately.
I used to be in a similar situation. It hurts because I really do want to help people. Often, you're not helping, but merely building co-dependence, or otherwise teaching them to rely on people. (ie, you, or you next enabler.) Pure sympathy really ends up not being the best way to help people. Setting boundaries, and tough love often go much further to actually changing behaviors.
I don't let myself burnout anymore. And I'd still say I work hard afterhours. I think what happened for me was disconnection from my sense of purpose mixed with being overworked leading to a "what's the point" vibe.
1. It probably took me 3-4 years in my late 20s, early 30s to recover. I just worked 9-5 then.
2. For me "work-life" balance as a concept was even causing me stress.
It conflicted with my sense of purpose. My advice is to actively prune and reject advice/suggestions that weigh on you and disconnect you from who you are.
3. Jiro dreams of sushi as a movie saved me. It reminded me of who I wanted to be and what I want to do with my life. This 90 year old is a sushi making expert works day in and day out at his craft. How does he have that energy? This isn't about hustle it's about motivation, inspiration and deeper purpose. So I recommend finding yours or reconnecting with it!
Ya def take a break, but I think there's often a deeper issue that's being exacerbated by being over worked. For me, I feel stronger than ever, but as others have shared, I feel like a different person. There's definitely pre-post self.
Most of the time when I read something like this, the responses gravitate around ”I took X weeks off, it was really good, you should do it.” I want to point out that the problem is unfortunately much worse and more complicated than that. I won’t even mention the many people who can’t do that, period (because their job does not have that affordance and/or they are the main/only source of income for the family). But even those who in theory could, the point is that some of the worse consequences come subtly and invisibly. Many of those who pat you on the back and say ”hey bro, take a week off” are silently judging you after you do that. Many might even be actively using that to get an edge on you. Those who are still on the team for that week will invariably ask themselves ”where is that guy when I need him” or ”why can’t he just take the pressure like I do?”. Then three months later after the dirt has settled you find yourself in the wrong end of a ”sudden downsizing”. Unfortunately we as a society don’t deal with depression with honesty and seriousness; most of the time all we say is ”you gotta take care of yourself” as if the blame/weight of the entire thing is on the person. Maybe it is? I don’t know. But personally, the only thing that really helps me when I have my events is to remember: it’s a war out there, most people are not my friends, but I have the strength to win, and I can do it. I’ve survived so far and I’ll survive again.
It's really a shocker to me whenever I see people in obviously difficult situations worry about their productivity. Like is this really what modern life has become? Build whole identities around being productive and doing a good job to an extent that someone who sees a foundation of their life falling apart is feeling guilt about not doing enough for their work.
Employers don’t care. My father died of pancreatic cancer in November 2021. Then in October 2022, my mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. My dad had a business with financial issues I also had to close and take care to. At the same time, I needed to help my mother with medical treatments and moving into a smaller apartment.
Despite these challenges the past two years, I’ve showed up to work consistently and did my best under the circumstances. During my performance review in January, I had a very negative review. I was told my productivity had declined and I “consistently had challenges” the past year. There was no empathy or understanding of my situation. Employers see us as tools to use, abuse, and throw out with little care of us as an individual. I’m doing the best I can.
To just about any business, unless you have a very close relationship with the owner, you really are just another expense. If they think they're losing more money on you than they're earning and that the benefit won't even be realized later, they will get rid of you. It's horrible and yet I can also see their side. The company needs to at least make enough to keep paying all of its other expenses and it gets hard if a lot of people they keep on have similar issues to you. And some of those similar issues might not even be real. There's people who would see the lenience you're getting and take advantage of that to also get undeserved lenience.
Here's hoping that you are able to keep your job. A poor performance review still leaves a chance to stay. It sounds like at least some of the things that have needed your time and attention are no longer overlapping, which might be enough to be able to satisfy your employer without going into full burnout.
> I had a very negative review. I was told my productivity had declined and I “consistently had challenges” the past year. There was no empathy or understanding of my situation. Employers see us as tools to use, abuse, and throw out with little care of us as an individual. I’m doing the best I can.
I came here to post specifically about this. I have been there. In the last 1 year, my FIL passed away, grandmother passed away, wife had 2 IVFs and one full-blown miscarriage, Dad was hospitalized for blood sugar spikes, mom was bedridden a few weeks due to blood issues, MIL needed help with property documents and setting up her old age, and my wife's career took a shot because she was a victim of corporate politics.
Notice, I haven't talked about myself because I haven't had time to even think about my own well-being. Am I burned out? Likely. What does my employer (and line manager) care about? Why is a risky service being rolled out slowly and why are other reviewers taking a long time to review code. I get a poor performance feedback for cherry-picked instances, thus creating an environment where perfection is required. Walking on eggshells if you will.
When someone asks what is wrong with American corporate culture, I empathize. America is an immoral, corrupt and exploitative society.
Relatable. I once spent a couple days in hospital because my friend got into an accident. The first day I show up in office my manager calls me into his office, asks how my friend is and then immediately starts grilling me on how I am behind on my work. And this manager was a good _person_ but these companies push you to be less human at times.
I'm having similar family issues like are describing. Fortunately my work is very accommodating. They let me WFH and it's ok if I have to leave with no notice to take care of a family emergency.
My company values me as an employee and I value them as an employer. That's how it should be. They're not all horrible out there, but if you find yourself in a horrible place like you are describing, they are not worthy of your hard work.
One of the most gratifying things in work is when you are finally fed up and quit, the surprise on your manager's face, like they never saw it coming.
Can't speak for everyone but my worry for productivity while on the edge of burnout had nothing to do with sacrificing myself for the company. I was worried for my job, that's it. That falling below some unreasonable threshold of work done would get me fired, while realizing I can't keep up with the amount and speed of required work.
Fortunately it was mostly in my head and passive aggressive worked very well in reducing expectations. To a point where I became stressed that I was asked too little. Literally "they" forgot about me for a while. So while enjoying a paycheck for nothing, I realized that cannot last so sadly I became more involved, which lead to more work. At least for the time being I seem to have mastered the screws to throttle productivity and become a classic "do the minimum" loser from the Gervais hierarchy. (Which if you familiar with the concept just means long term sustainable amount and nothing more, nothing less).
It's probably not the same experience for everyone, but when I was burned out or depressed, I "had" to cling to the things I could still have some control. Being productive was the main one. It also would distract me from the other issues. Of course, excessive work was causing most of the issues, now it's easy to see.
I got burned out when I wasn't in a good place. Having the same experience when you have a stable relationship/friendships/family life, healthy hobbies and not-too-limited finances, is probably much different than what I experienced.
Imagine you're about to not be able to work for the next 2 years, perhaps longer. Like no work gets done whatsoever, no job for you, nothing gets fixed around the house. People that are burning out are in this situation and subconsciously realize it. That's why recovery usually starts from a full crash against the wall.
I crashed really hard once. I didn't enjoy my life at all before that, I worked 16 hours/day and it somehow wasn't enough. They just gave me more work to do. The doctor put me on 60mg duloxetine and gave me one week sick leave. I couldn't even buy groceries because my mind was broken so I had no clue how to get back to work. I would get lost in the super market and start crying from the confusion and leave. I stayed home for 3-4 months doing absolutely nothing, and got back to work, working 50% but they just gave me more work until I worked 16 hours a day and I couldn't see any brightness in the future. Spent 3 weeks in a psych ward because I was going to end my life. I had a very sophisticated plan and the doctors said depressed people don't make such plans.
Anyways, in there I fell in love with a broken girl and I suddenly had a future. She was very broken and it hurt me to see her hurt herself all the time. I worked for 1-2 months until I quit and went to the Peruvian Amazon for 4 months and tried traditional medicines. It really changed me, when I came back I got another job and everything was fine for about 8 months until they restructured the company and things got really stressful. I went to bed on friday and when I woke up it was tuesday. Another doctor put me on sick leave again and they prescribed me other pills, but instead I resigned and went back to Peru.
I don't have money but at least I'm sane.
For anyone who read this.. listen to your body and get help before you crash. Take vacations often, don't accept overtime. It's not worth it. You're gonna spend all the money you make on recovery. Change jobs if you have to. Find a therapist.
I only managed to stay afloat because I could still work retail, but mentally I was completely checked out for over a year. My physical 'candle' was the only thing I had left to burn, but as a disabled person, doing this sucks sometimes.
It's this or homelessness and no treatment, though.
Some people definitely do fixate (and derive a sense of purpose, whether that's good or not) from perpetual productivity improvement – I think this is why online productivity and life hack gurus are so popular.
But for some, it's all about looking like they care about productivity because that's what their job or manager expects. Certainly this was the case for me. Throughout my twenties, I pushed myself to be more "productive" in my career because I thought I had to look like a go-getter to the people who paid me. I put in extra hours and effort, and even enrolled in an online university course to further expand my skills (resulting in me having next to zero free time!).
I still like to work hard and do good work, but I no longer push myself to be very good at everything I do. "Competent" is my aim. Doing my paid work to a standard that is "good enough" is not only easier on my stress levels, but my managers continue to report satisfaction with my work.
i ask the same question of myself. i haven't experienced a burnout before so that i needed to take a break to recover. i guess it's because i never allowed myself to be dragged to the point of burning out. i have a partner, family, and friends i love who need me to be when they need me. so my simple guide to no is whether any activity compromises my ability to be there for them. i'm very aware of the reality that nothing i do in tech, especially at a company, will be remembered 10 years from now (when even the company and its founders may be forgotten in 30 years or so). that really simplifies a lot for me: would i rather grind on this technology thing or spend time listening to my little brother goof around? play with my nieces? be in the presence of my parents? they're the ones who know who i am, in fact. no a mass of faceless internet souls (however gentle or kind they may be). to hell with overworking ourselves until burnout!
Acute stress messes with your ability to prioritize well. When you're burnt out, that effect can linger even when you've no reason to be stressed. It can frequently manifest as worrying about small stuff in the presence of a much bigger problem.
Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day.
I hate to say it but I do believe it'll help you a lot in this situation - brainwash yourself by listening to motivational speakers like Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Tony Robins or any others (pick your best, it doesn't matter; ask GPT4 for a list if you want to explore more).
Do something random outside like going cycling on some local meetup.
If you're unable to do this kind of stuff, your top priority is to take professional help asap.
> Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day.
+1 for this. Learning how to "talk" to yourself with honesty, but also self-compassion, is so important. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier in my life because its a difficult thing to learn and I still struggle with it. Its so easy to deceive or distract yourself when thinking about your own life.
Ok, I actually take it back, if it was depression the author wouldn't say they'll take time to rest - this text does look like burnout indeed.
Burnout and depression are two different things (different cause, some similar/overlaping but still distinct symptoms and different kind of treatment).
I'd phrase as 'depression is burnout of the self', or 'burnout is depression of non-self contexts' such as alternate, or specialist contexts, per project/ profession, etc. (with self simply being the default context)
Yes, it's also probably worth adding GPT4 on the list before seeking professional help - it may help indeed.
Using it as daily help to rephrase your inner dialogue questions - great idea. A lot of human reinforcement tuning went towards improvements in this area.
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It doesn't seem to work like you'd intuitively think - Working doesn't necessarily spend it - seeing results, winning, can fill it up. Drudgery, working on a problem with high stakes and no clear idea of the right direction, having your hard work thrown away - those drain it.
Meeting people can either drain it or fill it, depending on whether you're an introvert or not, how much you're listened to and how much you have to get off your chest.
Physical illness can drain it immensely. Eating, physically relaxing can fill it.
I don't know how to deal with it. How do I explain to coworkers and bosses why my productivity is low, set expectations around a physical illness that has lasted two years so far? An going fight with a neighbor or spouse? It's too hard sometimes.
I got nothing. Guess the only thing we can do is keep our chins up and hope for the better times to come soon.
Yesterday, I spent the entire day ripping out some rotting boards from my deck and replacing them. I tore out 4 16' deck boards and another 12 4' boards from the stairs. Then cut new ones for all those and put them in.
You wouldn't think that a project like that would take 12 hours, but there were so many little subtasks that had to happen that added up to a ton of work.
I went to bed utterly physically drained, and was sure that I was going to wake up today feeling like doing nothing. Instead, I woke up at a reasonable time and went out to my yard to seed some grass. I just felt like getting more shit done!
Meanwhile though, there have been times where I finish up some big programming task at work and then have a day or two where I just can't get momentum.
I like weightlifting (although I'm a bit off the wagon currently). Sometimes, I get a huge burst of energy and focus from a session, and other times, I'm gassed and dead for the rest of the day.
Same goes for socializing. Sometimes after an event I get home and can't shut up while talking to my wife. Other times I feel like I drained all my social energy for the next week.
It's so strange how little contextual things make such a difference in whether the things I do energize or drain me.
> I got nothing.
Ditto ;)
In other words: hours worked don't really correlate to the kind of deep depression-style burnout that prevents people from working for years. There is a burnout caused by working too much, but that's more of a standard chronic stress response, and can be solved simply by reducing the workload, whereas value-mismatch problems will persist even if you reduce the workload. Value-mismatch burnout requires major changes in your life to recover, basically.
It seems to be impossible to explain this. People just don’t get it. They are so used to having nearly infinite reserve capacity and assume everyone else does too. I have none. Every time I run out of energy, it’s laziness, carelessness, or a dozen other moral failings because I can’t possibly be different from them.
Fortunately, I’ve been able to convince people I’m doing my best and they are willing to accept something they don’t understand.
https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine...
This is my go-to resource for explaining what it’s like to live with chronic illness to healthy loved ones. Christine is far more eloquent than I could ever be.
Do you think this relates to your meds (if any) or your disorder (or both)?
It's particularly hard at startups, because every "pivot" is just that: a lot of hard work being discarded. You can try to rationalize it like "we learned something" or "at least we're not on that path anymore", but there's still a very real mental cost.
I don’t know if this can be taught, but I can do it without rationalization. On the other hand, some of my previous coworkers left companies and had to enter therapy because of that.
I don't know if it's a need to communicate pain, or find implicit emotional support with others.. or sensing the group doing efforts as a whole.
ps: thank you for mentioning that mental energy can go up.. most mainstream convos only mention draining. I've been very curious on how to maintain team flow and high levels of mental energy. One trick I find working often is relay work. I do something, when I feel tension, you take the wheel. Seeing you relaxes me, let me see how you handle things, can revive some mimetic reflex in the brain (oh he/she's done some progress, I want to make some too now) and just when you are now tired, I feel ready to jump in. Pair programming++
I hope that this continues to normalise self care and counter balance the hustle culture.
Ha ha. You have not known burnout.
It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year.
I am better now, maybe even better than I've ever been in my life, but I am a completely different person. There is a pre-burnout self, and a post-burnout one. (I don't code after work anymore. I do not enjoy cutting edge tech as much as I did just a couple years ago. I have become allergic to corporate life.)
Those that joke about burnout have no idea what they are talking about.
Programming itself can lead to burnout because it provides a promise of infinite possibilities, and some of us get fooled into thinking we are equally as capable as the code itself. This leads to time that could otherwise be spent getting in touch with our humanity instead being spent on countless side projects, many of which we secretly hope will lead to wealth and prestige. Virtually all of those projects will fail or reach a dead end; that may not seem like a big deal in your early 20s, but the realization of repeated failure and time spent in relative solitude can take it's toll once you hit your 30s. The burnout feeling occurs, not because you are doing anything functionally different from when you were addicted to code, but because the novelty eventually fades and it becomes clear how short life is. Worse yet, you may have nothing to show for all your effort. One may even have had their social skills atrophy. Burnout can have physiological components, but most of it is mental. The negative effects of having a passion for code may lead to a sense of worthlessness. Feeling like you are as insignificant as a smudge of excrement on a piece of tissue surging out to sea can be pretty demotivating.
I kept going, even when the wings had been shot off, the engine was on fire, and the yoke had been replaced with a bowl of lime chutney. Stiff upper lip, old boy, we’ll be back in Blighty soon. Just a little further and we’ll be safely on the ground. The lies I told myself, myriad.
It all, ultimately, inevitably, met a fiery end - I lost almost every element that comprised myself, and all that remained was a bitter, charred husk, barely capable of functioning homeostasis, never mind running a business, or expressing any emotion other than fury.
Six years, last year. Started, for the first time in all eternity, wanting to do things. Wanting to play a game, to watch a movie, to spend time with friends, to do, to create.
It took me utterly recusing myself from the world, therapy, drugs, more therapy, and it still isn’t quite gone - there remains a dark shadow in my mind.
Ouch. I suspect I've been going through a low-key burnout for the last year, but (at least in my mind) I can't really stop where I am now due to having dependents.
Couple years ago, I couldn't imagine myself not coding after work. I would code stuff for myself whenever I had a spare half hour or something. Now, I can hardly get myself to even try. At first, it was about not being able to start or persevere in the act. In the last year or two, I found myself no longer even thinking about potential things to do involving any kind of creative work.
Enjoying cutting-edge tech? Sure, I've gotten cynical over the decade+ spent on HN, but it's different now. I recently realized I'm not just cynical - I plain just don't give a shit anymore. This got me by a complete surprise. I still find the (non-bullshit scammy kind of) tech intellectually interesting - but nowadays in the abstract, not enough to make myself get out of mental bed to play with it.
> It has taken me a drastic break from work, isolation, depression, thousands of pounds in therapy, and 18 months to recover from work-related burn out. I did not write a single line of code for a year.
I'm very happy you endured and recovered. I'm also scared of the possibility of this happening to me, that I may be on that trajectory and already past the point of no return.
I couldn't stop working completely but I was extremely lucky to have a manager who jumped into different orgs of the company and brought me along to a place where she felt I would be able to move away from the toxic aspects leading me into a burnout.
Regardless I still had a whole year of extremely low productivity compared to my baseline throughout my career, bouts of anxiety and depression, aversion to any kind of social aspect of work (meetings, stakeholders' management, anything to do with people), it'd take the energy of a whole day to be able to keep a professional facade up for a 45 minutes meeting, etc.
I'm definitely a very different person, professionally speaking, after that slow descent I don't feel I will ever be again the worker I was before. I'm absolutely jaded by any corporate life, I hate higher management and it's definitely not something I will pursue in life, I don't want "growth" or "career paths", I want to do the job I know how to do well, be paid for it, and completely turn off any code/work related topic outside working hours.
Never been happier.
The good thing about it: it's quite unlikely to happen again, as you've also pointed out: one can become quite aware of factors (corporate culture, fear of disappointing others, perfectionism, ...) which might contribute to the death spiral leading to it.
Reading your post it reminded me of a dark year that I had some years ago, where I couldn't do any work at all, and similar to you, there's a before and after for me as well.
I saw in your profile that you're building a website monitoring application. There's a ton of them out there, and I also had one myself although I scraped it some years ago. What does your app do (will do) that the other ones don't?
Basic curiosity from an internet stranger! I too would like to have a small application that could provide me with enough money to live my own life (no big aspirations, no employees, just me, the product, the clients and added value).
Wish you the best :)
to get a nut tight: Tighten it until it loosens, then back off a quarter turn.
As it is pointed in the article, it really creeps up on you, and it is much harder to 'back off quarter turn' when the nut is broken.
This was what it was like for me, but I also got filled with anger at the same time. Like my brain was doing everything it could to physically stop me from working.
I took a week and a half off, but then came back and kept pushing. Now it feels even worse internally. I'm not sure what to do. I could take an extended leave maybe, but time off doesn't seem to be helping. I can sort of push through it right now, but I feel like the more I do that the worse it'll eventually get.
I'm in therapy and doing most of the self care things I can. It's keeping me afloat.
I tried this way for many years. Work hard for 4-5 years, then one year of relaxation and not working at all. Was fine during the year of relaxation, but at the end of the "work" cycle it always felt like shit.
What I found working better is instead being able to have the cycle nailed down for each day + the weekends. Absolutely nothing after 4pm related to work, until I'm back at work in the morning next day. If I even start thinking thoughts related to it, I actively push them away, even if it would be helpful.
In the beginning, it was really hard, as I'm used to just walking about and thinking about work. But now after a while, my brain automatically go into leisure mode at 4pm, and it finally feels like I get actual rest between leaving and coming back to work.
If notifications are turned on, it feels like other people have control over my mental state, because if an incoming email makes a ping it means that the person that just sent me a message caused my focus to shift in the work I am currently doing. Even if it feels minimal this compounds quite a lot over the course of a day.
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I really needed a week off in December, and that got delayed 3 times by 3 months of crazy overtime, and something in me just broke. I finished the project but there were a few days in there where it took real fortitude to keep going and put myself in my desk chair.
I took a week and a half off, which wasn't anywhere close to enough after that, and after a couple of aimless weeks back, I quit my job and now I'm starting a new one and I set up a month off in between. I don't know that it's been quite enough, but it has helped immensely. I'm going to be taking at least a week off per quarter for better mental health maintenance.
I used to be the same as a student - always trying to fix all those broken people around me, somehow attracting mostly mentally-ill friends, visiting too many in psychiatric wards. I thought I was doing good, but I was just letting myself get dragged down. I haven't fixed a single one of their problems, I just had my energy pulled out of me. Looks like OP put himself into a similar position to mine... I learned the hard way that I am the captain of my own ship, others' ships will happily pull mine down to the bottom of the ocean. I have a responsibility towards my own ship and walked away.
I.e. really interesting and fun people.
But ones that often have little respect for personal boundaries.
I have learned to enforce my boundaries. I don't expect other to respect them.
At the same time, I have found that I don't need to use nukes to enforce my boundaries. Very often, a simple "No, I won't do that." is sufficient, as opposed "OMG! Get the hell away from me, you maniac!".
Also, and I feel this is a lesson that many folks these days, could benefit from, if I initiate a relationship with hostility, it is likely to forevermore be a non-productive relationship.
It usually costs me nothing, to initiate relationships with courtesy. The other party may still be an uncouth bastard, but control of the future of the relationship is now in my hands; not theirs. I can still maintain courtesy, and am able to avoid dunking the relationship immediately.
1. It probably took me 3-4 years in my late 20s, early 30s to recover. I just worked 9-5 then.
2. For me "work-life" balance as a concept was even causing me stress. It conflicted with my sense of purpose. My advice is to actively prune and reject advice/suggestions that weigh on you and disconnect you from who you are.
3. Jiro dreams of sushi as a movie saved me. It reminded me of who I wanted to be and what I want to do with my life. This 90 year old is a sushi making expert works day in and day out at his craft. How does he have that energy? This isn't about hustle it's about motivation, inspiration and deeper purpose. So I recommend finding yours or reconnecting with it!
Ya def take a break, but I think there's often a deeper issue that's being exacerbated by being over worked. For me, I feel stronger than ever, but as others have shared, I feel like a different person. There's definitely pre-post self.
Despite these challenges the past two years, I’ve showed up to work consistently and did my best under the circumstances. During my performance review in January, I had a very negative review. I was told my productivity had declined and I “consistently had challenges” the past year. There was no empathy or understanding of my situation. Employers see us as tools to use, abuse, and throw out with little care of us as an individual. I’m doing the best I can.
Here's hoping that you are able to keep your job. A poor performance review still leaves a chance to stay. It sounds like at least some of the things that have needed your time and attention are no longer overlapping, which might be enough to be able to satisfy your employer without going into full burnout.
I came here to post specifically about this. I have been there. In the last 1 year, my FIL passed away, grandmother passed away, wife had 2 IVFs and one full-blown miscarriage, Dad was hospitalized for blood sugar spikes, mom was bedridden a few weeks due to blood issues, MIL needed help with property documents and setting up her old age, and my wife's career took a shot because she was a victim of corporate politics.
Notice, I haven't talked about myself because I haven't had time to even think about my own well-being. Am I burned out? Likely. What does my employer (and line manager) care about? Why is a risky service being rolled out slowly and why are other reviewers taking a long time to review code. I get a poor performance feedback for cherry-picked instances, thus creating an environment where perfection is required. Walking on eggshells if you will.
When someone asks what is wrong with American corporate culture, I empathize. America is an immoral, corrupt and exploitative society.
> Employers don’t care
Relatable. I once spent a couple days in hospital because my friend got into an accident. The first day I show up in office my manager calls me into his office, asks how my friend is and then immediately starts grilling me on how I am behind on my work. And this manager was a good _person_ but these companies push you to be less human at times.
A good manager will be flexible in these scenarios.
My company values me as an employee and I value them as an employer. That's how it should be. They're not all horrible out there, but if you find yourself in a horrible place like you are describing, they are not worthy of your hard work.
One of the most gratifying things in work is when you are finally fed up and quit, the surprise on your manager's face, like they never saw it coming.
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Fortunately it was mostly in my head and passive aggressive worked very well in reducing expectations. To a point where I became stressed that I was asked too little. Literally "they" forgot about me for a while. So while enjoying a paycheck for nothing, I realized that cannot last so sadly I became more involved, which lead to more work. At least for the time being I seem to have mastered the screws to throttle productivity and become a classic "do the minimum" loser from the Gervais hierarchy. (Which if you familiar with the concept just means long term sustainable amount and nothing more, nothing less).
I got burned out when I wasn't in a good place. Having the same experience when you have a stable relationship/friendships/family life, healthy hobbies and not-too-limited finances, is probably much different than what I experienced.
Anyways, in there I fell in love with a broken girl and I suddenly had a future. She was very broken and it hurt me to see her hurt herself all the time. I worked for 1-2 months until I quit and went to the Peruvian Amazon for 4 months and tried traditional medicines. It really changed me, when I came back I got another job and everything was fine for about 8 months until they restructured the company and things got really stressful. I went to bed on friday and when I woke up it was tuesday. Another doctor put me on sick leave again and they prescribed me other pills, but instead I resigned and went back to Peru.
I don't have money but at least I'm sane.
For anyone who read this.. listen to your body and get help before you crash. Take vacations often, don't accept overtime. It's not worth it. You're gonna spend all the money you make on recovery. Change jobs if you have to. Find a therapist.
It's this or homelessness and no treatment, though.
But for some, it's all about looking like they care about productivity because that's what their job or manager expects. Certainly this was the case for me. Throughout my twenties, I pushed myself to be more "productive" in my career because I thought I had to look like a go-getter to the people who paid me. I put in extra hours and effort, and even enrolled in an online university course to further expand my skills (resulting in me having next to zero free time!).
I still like to work hard and do good work, but I no longer push myself to be very good at everything I do. "Competent" is my aim. Doing my paid work to a standard that is "good enough" is not only easier on my stress levels, but my managers continue to report satisfaction with my work.
Possibly one of most valuable things you can do is to focus on better quality of questions you're asking yourself in your inner dialogue when thinking about anything throughout the day.
I hate to say it but I do believe it'll help you a lot in this situation - brainwash yourself by listening to motivational speakers like Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Tony Robins or any others (pick your best, it doesn't matter; ask GPT4 for a list if you want to explore more).
Do something random outside like going cycling on some local meetup.
If you're unable to do this kind of stuff, your top priority is to take professional help asap.
+1 for this. Learning how to "talk" to yourself with honesty, but also self-compassion, is so important. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier in my life because its a difficult thing to learn and I still struggle with it. Its so easy to deceive or distract yourself when thinking about your own life.
Burnout and depression are two different things (different cause, some similar/overlaping but still distinct symptoms and different kind of treatment).
Using it as daily help to rephrase your inner dialogue questions - great idea. A lot of human reinforcement tuning went towards improvements in this area.