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Posted by u/rickdicker 2 years ago
Show HN: Thoughts on Flash in 2023, in Flash, in 2023newgrounds.com/portal/vie...
Spent the past few days making this - something halfway between a demoscene program and an experimental film. I wanted to celebrate the unique computer-y aesthetics of flash, while showing off some weird and obscure tricks I've picked up over the years since it's been deprecated. (Also, some maybe-not-subtle commentary about AI-art and the tools of the future)
mclightning · 2 years ago
I was a huge Flash nerd, all the way since Macromedia Flash 5. I learnt programming with Flash 5 and action script. I have been at it until Flash 8. Then I stopped putting effort to keep-up and eventually Flash died.

Something was lost in the internet culture. Flash was the language of web art. I don't know what is the new language for that anymore.

If anyone knows, please do tell me. WebGL? Any WebGL-powered framework? What is it?

BoppreH · 2 years ago
My feeling is that we won't see another Flash because the artists went to video platforms[1], and the developers are trying to make money on the app stores[2].

Flash was the most attention grabbing medium at the time (because of bandwidth constraints), and making money was not the expectation, so the two groups flocked together and created all those wonderful animations and games for free. I don't see Flash, or anything like it, winning against TikTok and app store cash grabs anytime soon.

[1] Exhibit A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN92RC0Lmd4 . Distinct visual style? Check. Absurdist? Check. High effort? Check. Niche? Currently 3k views, check. Available for free? Check. 15 years ago this would be on Newgrounds.

[2] Exhibit B: https://play.google.com/store/games . Hundreds of thousands of simple games. 15 years ago, the less greedy version of this would be on Kongregate.

rchaud · 2 years ago
Regarding the Play store, I just see waves and waves of the exact same game with different character textures applied.

The difference with Flash was that it was usually the work of a solo developer of a very small team, so they could be unique in what they made (not dismissing that Flash game had clones too). The mobile app landscape is different in that conformity = $$$. These apps are soulless, they have no incentive to build something that's not a Clash of Clans / Temple Run / Candy Crush type game that's inundated with microtransactions.

grishka · 2 years ago
Nothing. The ease with which Flash allowed one to create all these web experiences, with little to no programming, is still unmatched to this day.
LeifCarrotson · 2 years ago
I feel like the same is true of Visual Basic 6. (Excuse me, I'll wait....)

OK, now that we've all calmed back down, VB6 has been unmatched in the way that it allowed someone with zero experience to drag-and-drop and write in what looks like pseudocode to get some little business widget built. Yes, you can engineer something with better architecture that's less likely to paint you into a `DoEvents()` corner. Yes, the mere existence of settings like `On Error Resume Next`, `Option Strict Off`, and `Option Explicit Off` are anathema to correctness, security (lol), and robustness. No, if you expect support for Unicode or 64-bit operations, it wasn't built for that.

Many people loathe Flash for its security vulnerabilities, or VB6 because of experiences with poorly-written code at businesses that should have had a 'real programmer.' And today, a tool that made the same design decisions that Flash and VB6 did - pandering to novices who weren't willing to go to the effort to do things right - would be derided as a toy, as unusable for real work outside of sandboxed demos. But both were instrumental as stepping stones in the early 2000s to transform non-computer-literate individuals and businesses into creators and users.

pixelrevision · 2 years ago
Unity is a really good alternative. Flash kinda went sideways and started really trying to lean into the Java crowd with flex. Unity is more like what would have happened if Flash heavily leaned into what it did well.
rchaud · 2 years ago
> Flash was the language of web art. I don't know what is the new language for that anymore.

Nothing. Flash left a gaping void in Internet creativity that has gone unfilled. We don't call it 'art' anymore, we call it 'content', aka grist for walled-garden mills of Youtube and Instagram and Tiktok.

AshleysBrain · 2 years ago
We make Construct Animate which can do Flash-style animation right in the browser: https://www.construct.net/en/animation-software
dwild · 2 years ago
At first glance it seems to only support bitmap? I means it does seems great, but I believe a big part of Flash is the vectorial format, it's not baked into the image, and it does look "good" in many resolutions. You can iterate quickly that way.
whywhywhywhy · 2 years ago
> Flash was the language of web art. I don't know what is the new language for that anymore

P5, which while excellent and better than flash for many reasons it’s not the same thing.

The true beauty of flash was seeing the cool games and animations online a kid could pirate a copy of flash and then the way the tech worked it lulled you in with simple animation tools but you were forced to interact with code to control the play state.

This meant a percentage dug deeper and could eventually make games and more advanced things.

rchaud · 2 years ago
p5.js is to Flash....what D3.js is to making a bar chart in Excel. Here is the code required to just render a circle in p5:

>function draw() {

> stroke(50);

> fill(100);

> ellipse(x, y, 24, 24); }

In Flash you would just click the Oval icon and draw one.

woogley · 2 years ago
There is nothing like Flash IMO. Closest we have in the modern day is Unity and Godot
hutzlibu · 2 years ago
Closer would be Adobe Animate, the official successor, but it is really not the same experience.

Wick editor is nice, but developement is on hold. It is open source, so maybe something will still come out if it.

rchaud · 2 years ago
Tumult Hype on Mac as well. Point-and-click, drag 'n drop animation and website design. Also supports custom HTML/CSS/JS.
mattl · 2 years ago
I wish Macromedia had been able to get Flash to work without a plug-in. Flash was missing on Unix outside of Mac OS X and only i386 Linux.
throwaway5947 · 2 years ago
Adobe Animate.
grishka · 2 years ago
Flash literally changed my life. I wouldn't be who I am without it. I owe everything to it.

Without Flash, I wouldn't have most of my friends who I met via the VKontakte app developer community. My career would have been vastly different because I was later hired to that same VKontakte thanks to my previous participation in Flash app developer contests. I got quite a bit of my programming skills from ActionScript as well. Flash decompilers taught me reverse engineering.

I sincerely hope that at some point in the future Flash will see a resurgence. Ruffle in particular brings that moment closer. There is still no good open-source Flash authoring software though. I may try to fix that myself when I'm done with the rest of my project ideas.

chaoz_ · 2 years ago
Damn I saw too many fun VK apps, which ones have you authored? :D
grishka · 2 years ago
The reasonably popular ones:

- A "durak" card game. Was real-time with the server in Java. Also full of bugs because I had no clue what I was doing wrt multi-threading and I also didn't know what defensive programming even is.

- A demotivator-style meme generator.

- A gambling thing that resembled those once-popular "pillar" machines found in grocery stores and malls around Russia. IRL ones took 5-rouble coins, mine took VK votes. VK killed it by deprecating the API for apps to give votes to users.

- A music player with playback speed control. Mostly for shits and giggles :D

There were more smaller ones, all kinds of experiments, but they didn't catch on.

thewebcount · 2 years ago
The visuals were a lot of fun, but I don’t understand why I, as a viewer/consumer/whatever of this sort of thing, would ever want these things:

> Unknown runtime

I like to know whether I’m going to have time to view all of something or not. I might want to set aside some time to watch something if it’s too long for the break I’m taking right now.

> No rewinding, no skipping ahead

Ugh. Just … no. If I saw something cool or missed something, I want to see it again without having to watch the preceding 20 minutes again. Also seems like the kind of thing that would eventually be used to try and force you to watch ads, which I don’t need in my life.

> Extremely dense patterns that would get destroyed by video compression

This I can understand! See also SVG.

> Moiré effects that change if you mess with the zoom setting on your browser

OK, if that’s your thing, go with it.

> Effects that change depending on if you're using flash player or Ruffle

So a friend might suggest I watch something, but then when I watch it, I might see something different if I just use a different player? That seems less than ideal.

Anyway, love the visuals, and we could use more stuff like that, but really dislike the above points.

rickdicker · 2 years ago
I wouldn't say any of those bullet points are inherently better - just differences for you to contemplate. For all the downsides of these things, there are artistic uses of each that sadly are not an option on modern video platforms.

Example - mystery runtime, while inconvenient to someone in a hurry, is useful in keeping suspense or surprise. It's kind of hard to convince a reader that the hero is at risk of dying when there's obviously 2/3rds of a book left.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? Probably not. Should it at least be an option on modern video platforms? Maybe. But the important thing to me, is that we remember how such a thing changes the viewing experience before every film for the rest of time comes with a progress meter attached.

chrisan · 2 years ago
Would you consider putting this on youtube or something? I grew up with flash (my first paid job was an as3 project for a medical teaching team) and was always interested in the artistic side of flash

I got to the point where you are talking with the older guy but wanted to get back to work and reference something. I noticed whenever I tabbed to something else the video/audio would stop, so I dragged the tab out of firefox create its own window and it continued playing for about 30 seconds then for some reason it stopped and when I looked it was back at the prompt from the start

thaumasiotes · 2 years ago
> It's kind of hard to convince a reader that the hero is at risk of dying when there's obviously 2/3rds of a book left.

This is what George R. R. Martin wanted to do. He will kill the fake-out protagonist at any time.

This is supposed to mean that he is a great writer. But really it just means he's bad at storytelling - you'd tell a better story by just focusing on the actual protagonists instead of random redshirts. Focusing the correct characters has no effect on the plot.

onion2k · 2 years ago
I'm with you on this. Running Flash as a plugin in a browser is not something I want at all. Flash Player was awful.

But...

The Flash editor/IDE was brilliant, and that's something that the web sorely needs. There's a few libraries that can do similar things (eg theatre.js) but they don't do enough. Flash's editor was genuinely easy to use once you'd mastered a few things, and if you remembered to save regularly, and it enabled people to make fantastic games, sites, experiences, etc.

I suspect the lack of a really good animation and interaction design tool is one thing that's lead to the homogenization of the internet.

boudin · 2 years ago
I still wonder what browsers would be today if adobe had open sourced flash player and worked on making SWF and action scripts standards to be natively integrated in browsers rather than letting the player die as an annoying badly maintained plugin.
Closi · 2 years ago
Agree - the success of flash was that it was designer-first rather than developer-first (and I miss that!).

Things like theatre.js look great, but very quickly their documentation make it clear that you are expected to use javascript.

Flash expected you to just draw stuff, animate stuff, and if you like there is an optional scripting environment. The first few iterations of flash didn't really even have much of a scripting environment at all (AS1 was incredibly limited!).

I think that is part of the nostalgia of that period - things were so easy to make that you got some really creative and crazy stuff.

fphhotchips · 2 years ago
I'm with you. I stopped watching not because of the visuals (which I hated - I immediately got eyestrain - but I can appreciate others might like them), but because I reached the point in the video where I wanted to know how much longer there was. I was interested enough for a couple more minutes, but for all I know, this doesn't get to the point until 10 minutes in. I just don't want that in my life.

Everything on the 'different' list is unambiguously bad to me except maybe the compression thing. I don't want effects that change with zoom settings - that just excludes people who need to be zoomed in to see stuff.

I'm not happy that Flash died. I spent a lot of time playing really fun games in Flash. I'm happy this can exist, but please let's keep doing video essays in videos. That said, now I know Newgrounds still exists I wonder if I can find the impossible quiz...

smolder · 2 years ago
I don't think the author was implying all of those characteristics they enumerated were positives.
dusted · 2 years ago
Keep in mind that flash is not simply a linear media to be played back like a movie or song, it's interactive.. What's the run-time in a strategy game ? What does rewind and fast-forward even mean in a story-driven one ?
chris_armstrong · 2 years ago
You could take the perspective that this is art, and sometimes art sets constraints on how the viewer can experience it that be a limitation of the medium or something deliberate on the part of the artist.

I was happy enough to go with it, even though the flashing at first made me feel a bit uneasy. I'm glad people still find joy in this stuff - I remember building Flash animations in the early 2000s and quite enjoying learning about all this cool animation stuff and laying background music I'd ripped off a disc.

nextaccountic · 2 years ago
> Unknown runtime

> No rewinding, no skipping ahead

Could this be manually inserted by a specific flash applet? Just like, you know, Youtube started as a flash applet and it had a (custom made) seekable progress bar

This should make animation only slightly harder (it would receive a parameter t instead of mutating things as the time goes forward, but that's best practice for animations anyway I think, at least in gamedev it is)

nextaccountic · 2 years ago
> > Effects that change depending on if you're using flash player or Ruffle

> So a friend might suggest I watch something, but then when I watch it, I might see something different if I just use a different player? That seems less than ideal.

Sounds like a bug/limitation of Ruffle that might or might not be addressed by future versions, not an inherent thing with Flash

CSSer · 2 years ago
This is very cool. It sent me down a rabbit hole of NG’s Flash Forward submissions that ultimately triggered a strong sense of nostalgia for the late ‘00s and ‘10s. There was a lot of kid culture here at the time. I’m not familiar enough to know (probably since I don’t have kids), but I get the impression that in some ways New Grounds was for my generation what Roblox is for kids today. Can anyone attest to this?

It makes me wonder what a resurgence of flash via Ruffle.rs could mean for the web today. That being said, there are also a lot of exciting ways to make this kind of content today now too.

whywhywhywhy · 2 years ago
> New Grounds was for my generation what Roblox is for kids today. Can anyone attest to this?

Essentially yes, you can jump from completely different experiences in seconds. Main difference is it’s multiplayer by default.

michaelbrooks · 2 years ago
I owe my career to Flash. I got started because my school would block game sites, and we weren't allowed to play games at lunch time. I used Flash to learn how to make games and then play them in School. If anyone said I couldn't play games, I would respond with "I'm learning to make the game", and they would give me a pass.

It's the reason I got into scripting/programming, and I'm now a web developer.

VapidLinus · 2 years ago
When I was a kid my mum would only let me use my PC every other weekday because she wanted me to spend less time playing games. I convinced her that on the non-game days she would let me use Game Maker on my PC instead :)

So I ended up using my PC every day of course. But I did spend a lot of time making games!

thih9 · 2 years ago
Impressive! I think that’s a fair rule for any school, i.e. you’re allowed to play a computer game if you’ve made it yourself.
dandare · 2 years ago
My professional career was:

ActionScript 1 -> I am making silly games!

ActionScript 2 -> I am making cool games!

ActionScript 3 -> OO, classes, IDEs, SDKs, oh my got, I think I can write code now!

JS -> What is this crap??

TypeScript -> Thanks Flash, I am a software developer thanks to AS3.

hutzlibu · 2 years ago
Yeah, I can relate, only that I had to stay with js longer than planned.

And my old workflow with Flash, Flash Builder, Flex builder I am still missing.

libraryatnight · 2 years ago
I enjoyed that - thanks for sharing and making it. Thoughtful and kind of beautiful.

Flash was such a huge part of why the internet was awesome for me growing up. My favorite part of the internet is still people making and sharing things - like this.

bryceneal · 2 years ago
It's fascinating to observe the dramatic shift in perceptions around Flash on Hacker News over the past 5-10 years. As I recall, discussions mentioning Flash were once dominated by near-unanimous complaints about its flaws, and there was an overwhelming sense of relief when it was announced that it would be deprecated.

Now, the narrative has evolved to appreciate the unique creative value Flash provided and the distinct niche it occupied at the intersection of art and code. Maybe it took us some time to recognize this, or maybe it's possible for both sentiments to hold true simultaneously.

npteljes · 2 years ago
I think it's because Flash means more than one thing to people. As a plugin, it was horrible for multiple reasons: insecure, undiscoverable, pain to view at different resolutions, etc. As a creative outlet, it was awesome, it enabled a lot of people to express themselves, and others to take part in a culture.
rchaud · 2 years ago
I think it comes down to those that categorize Flash's use cases as either white-hat or black-hat.

Some will remember Flash-based banner ads and video sites, that often had malware; that's black-hat Flash.

Many others will remember Flash for the games, cartoons and experiences that were non-commercial in nature and thus were malware-free.

Groxx · 2 years ago
tbh I think the dividing line is pretty clear:

Many are glad the performance and security nightmare of a runtime is gone, and we have modern replacements for most of what it did. They're not all superior, but I think it's fair to say we're roughly equivalent now, and possibly better, in aggregate.

Most are sad that the excellent, ubiquitous, amateur-friendly authoring environment is gone, and no replacement currently exists. There are many more-specialized ones, but few general ones (and they're far less widely used, though that could change eventually).