Ok, so this appears to be over the fact that Pixelfed copied the names of the Instagram filters 1:1. They are not generic names like "blur" or "enhance" -- they are very specific names that Instagram has associated with their filters for years, like "Clarendon" and "Ludwig".
I'm sort of reading this thread and the Mastodon thread in disbelief at the defenders. Just change the names of the darn filters! (and not "iClarendon" and "iLudwig" for heaven's sake -- that is so childish.)
There are fights worth fighting out there -- abusive patent trolls, etc. -- this is not one of them. If this escalates they will lose 100% and waste tons of time and money, both of which could be better spent on actually building Pixelfed.
Sorry -- not the world's biggest Meta/FB/IG fan here but I am 100% with them on this one and if I were in charge I'd make the exact same threats. /rant over.
the same reason that chrome and firefox look like each other way more than they did originally
the same reason GNU/Linux distributions like Xandros used to mimic Windows XP
the same reason Microsoft Windows originally looked a lot like MacOS
the same reason MacOS looked a lot like what was going on in PARC before them
because users come to your platform with expectations and perceived affordances, and if you can get them to switch others will too
ie
if your UI isn't defined by lawyers, it will adapt to the psychological models that actually live in the heads of your users if you're developing it properly
Yeah, I heard it was about the filter names, but previously had no idea what those filter names actually were. If they're common, obvious names like "blur" and "enhance", then I doubt Instagram would have a case, but if they're really the same as Instagram's, and Instagram's filters are indeed those on https://picturepan2.github.io/instagram.css/ , and those names originated with Instagram, then Pixelfed needs to come up with some good names of their own, and fast.
I'm a big fan of all the open source Fediverse platforms, but copying these sort of unique names is rather obviously a bad idea.
Never heard of Pixelfed, but it's sort of shady that, the moment they received notice that they shouldn't be copying a trillion-dollar company's product 1:1, they immediately cry that they need more donations.
Just rename the filters, and maybe make tweaks so they aren't exactly the same, and then suddenly Meta has no standing.
You may not have but that community is actually very active. I posted 5-6 photos on pixelfed and it had more engagement than my total Instagram engagement over 5-6 years.
Well, with a multi-billion dollar company knocking on the door, they know they may need absurd amounts of money for lawyers, so it makes sense to ask for donations should the situation escalate beyond what pro-bono lawyers can handle.
At the core, the problem is that the US doesn't have many protections for individuals and small businesses that need to fight against mega-corporations. It's simply infeasible to achieve anything outside of small-claims court. Europe is a bit better, but not by much.
If I were a small open source project with the prospect of a legal battle on the horizon, I’d want to start raising money for it before, not after, the litigation begins.
A trademark isn't "you don't get to use this word because I own it now", it is "you don't get to use this word in this context as it is confusing". If you want to name your restaurant Ludwig, go ahead: you just can't name your filter Ludwig. With the exception of Lo-Fi, where maybe you could make a defense, these names are non-obvious and have never been in common use to describe a set of modifications to photographs. Just because Clarendon isn't a unique word does NOT have ANYTHING to do with whether or not you could trademark it for something.
You can't just say "durrrr... I've heard this word before!" you have to actually show that that word has been connected to that context and isn't some otherwise unique usage, and I simply don't see how you are going to claim that for these words: if you show those filters to people and ask them to describe them, the only reason they would say "Clarendon" is because of Instagram's prior usage carefully associating that word with that filter behavior: if you believe otherwise you have to show THAT, not that the word itself has been uttered by someone in the past.
I’m afraid you may have some misapprehensions about how trademarks work, and I don’t think this is about trademark specifically anyway.
Trademarks do not give someone the exclusive rights to that word in all contexts. Instead, you register a word or phrase and an category. For instance, there are about 1500 trademarks on the word Apple, from laundromats to eyeglasses[0]
But Meta’s complaint here doesn’t seem to be trademark; companies don’t typically trademark every name like filters. But there is lots of other IP law, including trade dress, which is different from trademark.
And much as I love the fediverse and hope it displaces dinosaurs like Meta, I’m surprised anyone would defending taking the filter names em mass and using them to refer to the same visual effects. That is not something one does. Meta is not claiming ownership of all uses of those words in any context, they are saying please don’t rip off the exact words to clone their UX.
You can say the same for Apple. I think the trademark applies when a common word is used in a distinct business case. Here the word is used as a filter name, for instance. That application is unique.
That's one of the funniest things I've seen this month, I had no idea this existed. Making it such a carbon copy yet with a federated backend is something that both feels like a huge feat and something like an amusingly naive oversight.
Honestly impressed as can be but can certainly see that they could have at least tried to differentiate it from its inspiration at least somewhat, like that's just poking bears in eyes with sticks.
Does it? It looks like a generic photo sharing app to me. The iconography is different, the UI controls in the top are different and the list of faces at the top of the page are gone. The only matching icons I can see are the heart shape (hardly original) and the speech bubble for commenting (also hardly original).
For a company shamelessly copying from other apps, it's quite silly for Instagram to send a cease and desist letter to Pixelfed.
And their use of the navigator icon for discover is also a play on an even older IG interface. Dunno if it’s enough for a suit but it’s pretty, uh, direct.
I wonder if this was just lazy MVP development or a conscious strategy to get attention. I never would have heard of them without this controversy, and it's something very cheap for them to fix (just rename). Probably need to attract more than just HN, but if they can somehow turn this into a few mainstream press articles about "tiny Mastodon photo service attacked by Mark Zuckerberg, personally!", it's a win, especially since the remedy is renaming an internal product feature where the names themselves aren't even significant. (Probably doing a "community poll to come up with new names" would be a worthwhile growth hack, too.)
.. if this only about renaming filter names .. I do not get why pixelfeed made it an issue to even publish. I despise meta as much as anyone - but there was zero need for a shit post.
Readit News
I'm sort of reading this thread and the Mastodon thread in disbelief at the defenders. Just change the names of the darn filters! (and not "iClarendon" and "iLudwig" for heaven's sake -- that is so childish.)
There are fights worth fighting out there -- abusive patent trolls, etc. -- this is not one of them. If this escalates they will lose 100% and waste tons of time and money, both of which could be better spent on actually building Pixelfed.
Sorry -- not the world's biggest Meta/FB/IG fan here but I am 100% with them on this one and if I were in charge I'd make the exact same threats. /rant over.
Why are they copying Instagram 1:1 when the Instagram UX sucks so much?
the same reason GNU/Linux distributions like Xandros used to mimic Windows XP
the same reason Microsoft Windows originally looked a lot like MacOS
the same reason MacOS looked a lot like what was going on in PARC before them
because users come to your platform with expectations and perceived affordances, and if you can get them to switch others will too
ie
if your UI isn't defined by lawyers, it will adapt to the psychological models that actually live in the heads of your users if you're developing it properly
I'm a big fan of all the open source Fediverse platforms, but copying these sort of unique names is rather obviously a bad idea.
Dead Comment
“Someone who works at Meta reached out and advised me to rename the filters asap.” [1]
So maybe the issue is simply that Pixelfed is using identical filter names.
[1] https://mastodon.social/@dansup/109596825332511647
Just rename the filters, and maybe make tweaks so they aren't exactly the same, and then suddenly Meta has no standing.
You may not have but that community is actually very active. I posted 5-6 photos on pixelfed and it had more engagement than my total Instagram engagement over 5-6 years.
This is Hacker News. OSS is supposed to be a good thing.
I just gave them $50, support creators, especially here where we are all benefiting as creators ourselves.
At the core, the problem is that the US doesn't have many protections for individuals and small businesses that need to fight against mega-corporations. It's simply infeasible to achieve anything outside of small-claims court. Europe is a bit better, but not by much.
Good for them to call out bullying to spread awareness of their product.
https://github.com/pixelfed/pixelfed/pull/4037
Juno, the ancient Roman goddess, a word in use for over 2000 years.
Clarendon, the wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarendon lists approximately 40+ different uses, from place names to typefaces.
Lark, well, do I have to add anything here?
Ludwig, uhmmm, Beethoven's estate is about to be sued?
Lo-fi: Yes I never heard of this word before in the context of photography. True originators.
Please stop the trademarking of common words and cultural heritage that belong to all of us.
You can't just say "durrrr... I've heard this word before!" you have to actually show that that word has been connected to that context and isn't some otherwise unique usage, and I simply don't see how you are going to claim that for these words: if you show those filters to people and ask them to describe them, the only reason they would say "Clarendon" is because of Instagram's prior usage carefully associating that word with that filter behavior: if you believe otherwise you have to show THAT, not that the word itself has been uttered by someone in the past.
Trademarks do not give someone the exclusive rights to that word in all contexts. Instead, you register a word or phrase and an category. For instance, there are about 1500 trademarks on the word Apple, from laundromats to eyeglasses[0]
But Meta’s complaint here doesn’t seem to be trademark; companies don’t typically trademark every name like filters. But there is lots of other IP law, including trade dress, which is different from trademark.
And much as I love the fediverse and hope it displaces dinosaurs like Meta, I’m surprised anyone would defending taking the filter names em mass and using them to refer to the same visual effects. That is not something one does. Meta is not claiming ownership of all uses of those words in any context, they are saying please don’t rip off the exact words to clone their UX.
[0] https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=4802%3A...
Honestly impressed as can be but can certainly see that they could have at least tried to differentiate it from its inspiration at least somewhat, like that's just poking bears in eyes with sticks.
Well the UI looks exactly like Instagram
For a company shamelessly copying from other apps, it's quite silly for Instagram to send a cease and desist letter to Pixelfed.
Nearly everything I’m seeing was pretty clearly cribbed from IG‘s UI throughout the years.
You can see more similarities in this 2016 screenshot: https://www.idownloadblog.com/2016/05/11/instagram-redesigns...
And their use of the navigator icon for discover is also a play on an even older IG interface. Dunno if it’s enough for a suit but it’s pretty, uh, direct.
Is this the tech version of the Seinfeld Effect?
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunn...
Deleted Comment
Deleted Comment