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Posted by u/tsingy 3 years ago
Ask HN: What to do with a coffee plantation with about 8000 trees?
My dad left me a coffee plantation and I have no experience in this at all, nor did he. It is freshly planted so it won't reach peak production until around 2026. But I want to learn how I could go about taking care of it and eventually start selling beans. Do you have any resource I can take a look at to learn more about coffee and its production process?
Magi604 · 3 years ago
The reasonable answer here, unfortunately, is to sell it, for reasons that others in this thread have pointed it out.

The YOLO "hollywood movie"/NYT best seller answer, however, is to drop everything you're doing, go to Madagascar, spend some time trying and failing (with hijinx!) to grow the crop yourself. Your neighbors at first are distant and doubtful, but slowly you gain their respect. 15 years from today, tsingy brand coffee is a household name.

diego · 3 years ago
I mostly agree. The way I would face this decision is like this:

1) Do I enjoy the coffee business? Would I have bought that plantation if the opportunity had arisen? If the answer is no, selling is most likely the right answer.

2) That being said, it's not like the plantation is a hot potato that needs to be sold right away. OP has some time to check it out, learn about the business and decide if this is something worth trying for a few years. How long to try for? What's the opportunity cost? They would decide to invest a limited amount of time (e.g. one year of work) and then reevaluate at the end. I would timebox this decision process too. Perhaps learn all you can in a month and decide if you want to give it a shot? Part of this process should involve getting in touch with people in the industry and seeing if you like interacting with them. In the end, most of your job will be about interacting with the different types of players in your industry.

tsingy · 3 years ago
I enjoy coffee, the business I don't know, that is why I want to try.

I'll try at least until the first harvest is sold or whatever happens. It cost me around 3000 euros a year to run for now. So YOLO

hinkley · 3 years ago
Plus you meet your soulmate who is living monk-like because they are still devastated from the mother/father of their children passing away suddenly four years ago. Finally their kids tell them it's time to move on and you get married six months later.
Jugurtha · 3 years ago
Amongst the neighbors is an attractive woman who hates OP's guts at first, then mellows, and finally falls in love. They both go against a major coffee brand that is abusive to locals and they manage, with the help of folksy villagers throwing spanners in the works of BIGCoffee, to overcome and overtake with jolly good ol' values.
dogma1138 · 3 years ago
You can always try to pitch it as some reality show to Netflix et al, I know of someone in similar circumstances that managed to get something produced although on a regional level in Europe.
jareklupinski · 3 years ago
pretty great idea, I'd watch "Tech To Brew" :)

the money made from letting a Netflix crew follow you around would probably help through bad seasons

Alex3917 · 3 years ago
The reality though is you could plant 100 - 200 fruit trees and make the same amount of money each year as the coffee plantation with 99% less work.
tsingy · 3 years ago
What fruits?
jfoster · 3 years ago
Is there only two options? How about hiring someone who knows how to do it, or leasing it?
r_hoods_ghost · 3 years ago
As you're in Madagascar you might want to get in touch with CRS[1] who have a training program for coffee growers. A relative worked with them on another project in Tana a few years ago and found them good to work with.

[1] https://coffeelands.crs.org/2021/04/agroforestry-and-coffee-...

tsingy · 3 years ago
Yes I am, nice guess. Thanks a lot, will take a look into it.
jccooper · 3 years ago
I don't know anything about your land or crop, but farming tends to be a regional activity so you probably have neighbors in the same business who know at least how the job is usually done. You need knowledge from them. How that shapes up, I dunno. Maybe you want to hire one of them to run your operations; maybe you want to lease it and watch what they do; maybe you want to work for them for a year or two to learn; maybe they'll just tell you what to do each month if you just stop by and chat.

I stand to inherit a farm (of a very different sort: dry plains, mostly growing wheat) and I plan to do the same thing my father does now: lease it to a local.

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appabings · 3 years ago
Read The Coffee Exporter's Guide: Third Edition https://www.un-ilibrary.org/content/books/9789213614860 Its free and will give you a good overview of the industry.

If you want to get into farming get Wintgen's Coffee - Growing, Processing, Sustainable Production: A Guidebook for Growers, Processors, Traders and Researchers, 2nd, Revised Edition https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Coffee+Growing%2C+Processing%2C+... (You will get a way cheaper from other sources).

Depending on the country you have different options. You can think about leasing it to other farmers or a cooperative. Talk to a local Specialty Coffee Roastery for a different perspective.

If you are interested in more information I could make a follow up post

tsingy · 3 years ago
Hey, thanks a lot.

Just dump any information you can, I know nothing about this so any bit of info is good. Leasing is not really an option because finding someone who will lease would be hard, we don't do that here.

Godel_unicode · 3 years ago
Omwani coffee in the UK has recently released a Madagascar origin specialty coffee, and they claim to be trying to work with local producers, it might be worth reaching out to them. You might also want to reach out to other boutique coffee producers, many of them have farmer education programs (counter culture and square mile are the first two that come to mind).

Meta-advice, find people who actually understand the business and get their opinions. This forum is great for CS startups, but it’s full of people who think their success in one field means they are experts in everything they’ve read an article about. Be skeptical.

timst4 · 3 years ago
I used to work on a coffee plantation of about 1000 trees in Kona. The owners ran a very lean operation. Coffee doesn’t require much maintenance outside of picking season. They had one farm manager and a handful of WWOOFers (work trade volunteers) to help with keep up with farm work and mowing. During picking season they would hire pickers from Ecuador and the Philippines to come pick the cherries. There was a co-op that weighed and processed the raw cherries on the island. The co-op also handled warehousing. They would sell raw beans to a bigger fish for roasting and shipping. Three employees total and they did quite well. Kona is out of the ordinary though. It is well regarded and fetches a decent price wholesale.
roflyear · 3 years ago
Price is a huge thing. With that many trees they must have been doing only 2klbs of coffee a year on the high end (green). I don't see how they could have been doing "quite well" as green Kona beans sell for like $40-60/lb (a lot considering most green coffee is like $8 or so a pound).
hinkley · 3 years ago
In farming it seems that co-ops generally offer a little better price to the farmer than the usual list of suspects. Especially if your buyer is far enough away that it begins to affect the quality of your yield.
noduerme · 3 years ago
My grandfather took a trip west in 1945 after the war, leaving his wife and kids in Baltimore. He somehow ended up in what's now Rancho Mirage, talking to someone who was selling land. He'd saved up about $10k and sank all of it into a 10-acre grapefruit and date farm, basically a patch of desert with some palm and citrus trees and well water. Took my grandma and dad and aunt out there and they lived in an airstream trailer on the land. Sold the fruit to Dole mostly for juice. Barely made ends meet. When he died in the 90s, the patch sold for over $1m to a hotel conglomerate. So if nothing else... my family has a mantra: Never sell real estate.

For your specific situation, my grandfather had a different saying: "Find yourself a teacher". He claimed this philosophy came from the Talmud, but I can't say. In any event, my grandfather had already gone from being a door-to-door cloth salesman to a cutter to a tailor, and he always found an expert teacher to attach himself to and learn from, and this usually meant someone humbly but seriously devoted to the work at hand. In the case of the ranch, it was a Cahuilla Indian man who had lived nearby, and who taught him how to take care of the trees. My grandfather employed him as a full-time caretaker and kept up his house on the land for the rest of his life.

My advice with anything where you don't have the knowledge to do it yourself would be to find yourself a teacher by searching in the humblest of places for someone with that knowledge, and make them your mentor.

tsingy · 3 years ago
I happily hire anyone that is that knowledgeable, but where I live that is rare, and they are probably running their own stuff. I wholly agree with you though, I won't venture into this alone or without a general view of how things work.
phonon · 3 years ago
>Never sell real estate.

If he would have invested that $10,000 in the S&P 500 and reinvested the dividends, it would have been worth more than $2 million by the 90s.

https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/

jimnotgym · 3 years ago
> So if nothing else... my family has a mantra: Never sell real estate

"Warren Buffett: $10,000 invested in an index fund when I bought my first stock in 1942 would be worth $51 million today"

Looks like he could have done 51 times better for no work

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/07/warren-buffett-10000-investe...

noduerme · 3 years ago
True, but if you can imagine someone even more conservative - my grandfather (and father) had a lot of respect for Buffett but considered him to be a reckless gambler.

I once sold 1000 BTC for about $10k, for reasons largely similar to the ones that kept my grandfather from entering the stock market. I think putting $10k into an index fund probably seemed just as insane to most people in 1942 as keeping $10k in Bitcoin seemed to me in 2012.

In addition to having run a casino, I'm a reformed gambling addict (as long as you don't leave me alone in Vegas for too long). Part of overcoming gambling addiction and its manifestations in everyday behaviour is that I don't second-guess decisions I make out of being too conservative or, in other words, feel regret for pocketing my gains and walking away. That way lies ruin. And also, as a gambler, I'm an optimist, so I don't think I missed my one-and-only chance to make 50x my money. There's always another spin right around the corner.

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traceroute66 · 3 years ago
Let's be realistic here, your only option is to sell it.

Recap the facts:

       - You've confirmed you have no experience ("I have no experience in this at all")
       - You've confirmed your dad had no experience ("nor did he") ... so how do you know it's "good" land, or you dad did a good job until now ? Are you sure there are no "skeletons in the cupboard" ?
       - You haven't got long ("around 2026"), we're entering 2023 now, 3 years will fly by.  You have no experience, you have no coffee bean buyers lined up (in what is a very competitive market). 
      - Remember you are also taking on MORE financial risk by continuing because you will doubtless be required to incur CAPEX and OPEX expenses. So not only could it become a mental headache for you, but it could easily become a financial blackhole too.
You could lease it out, but do you HONESTLY (a) want the headache of managing tenants, legal contracts, collecting rent and all that jazz (b) have enough experience to make sure you are not getting screwed and your tenants treating the land well ?

tsingy · 3 years ago
I will keep it at least until the first harvest is sold or whatever happens. If you prevent yourself from doing anything because you don't experience in it, you won't ever do anything. It costs me around 3000 euros a year to run.
kevmo314 · 3 years ago
No need to be so discouraging. Is it likely to be a lucrative business? Probably not. Is it likely to be even profitable? Probably not. But if OP wants to learn, why suggest their only option is to sell it? We don't tell our kids to give up programming because they have no idea how much pain dealing with javascript is.
traceroute66 · 3 years ago
> No need to be so discouraging

I'm not being discouraging, I am being realistic.

I am looking at the situation from someone who has no ties to the situation. Taking the completely objective view with no bias.

I am looking at the situation who has been involved in small businesses, I know how tough running a small business is .... running a small farming business with zero experience will be sheer hell, frankly.

If they had a couple of decades to learn, that might be one thing... but they have stated they have three years (2023 – 2026). The hard reality is that you are not going to become a farming wizard in three years. You are taking on a lot of stress and a lot of financial risk. 21st century farming is a tough business with tight margins and near-zero tolerance for mistakes.

jrockway · 3 years ago
> We don't tell our kids to give up programming because they have no idea how much pain dealing with javascript is.

Learning to program is low risk, high reward. The absolute worst thing that can come from failing is the hard drive space used by VSCode and the lost evenings you were going to waste on Minecraft anyway. Meanwhile, the reward is a lucrative software engineering job or at least the ability to make neat stuff. No reason not to give it a try; if you like it, you gained a new skill. If you dislike it, you find some other hobby. A maximum of $0 will be spent. Maybe $20 if you buy a book or something.

The same is not true of an industrial coffee farm. Property tax bills will come due. Employees have to be hired and then fired when you fail. Specialized machinery needs to be purchased and will be useless when you give up.

If you've got a few million dollars in your bank account that's burning a hole in your pocket, then I suppose "learn the coffee trade by buying a full-scale manor" is something you could do. If you don't, then cash out now and use the money to build a business you'll actually succeed in. If you just want to learn how to grow and roast coffee, plant a coffee tree in your backyard. When you get bored and it dies, pay someone $200 to remove it.

I definitely get these ideas in my head all the time. I was watching some video about a box factory and was like I should own a box factory. You get a cool industrial loft, and there are machines in there, and guys with trucks come to pick up your boxes. Easy money easy life!! The I realize the video is a safety investigation video and the box factory blew up and killed everyone in the neighborhood because water coming into the plant had too much oxygen in it and am like; wait I don't know anything about any of this stuff. I will stick to programming for the time being.

jacquesm · 3 years ago
It's discouraging. It's encouraging. Encouraging to sell, because that decision makes by far the most sense. If I inherited a business that I have no experience in and that I would not have started by myself I wouldn't even bother with an 'Ask HN', I would have been on the phone to someone who brokers coffee plantations. Besides that, I don't drink coffee so I wouldn't even know if my product is any good.
J253 · 3 years ago
I’m a home roaster and buy my green beans from a website called www.sweetmarias.com. Everything about this company is awesome but there’s guy there named Tom who knows probably as much as anyone could know about the entire coffee process from growing to wholesaling to roasting. He always travels to farms to meets with growers before purchasing. I guarantee if you get a hold of their customer service and explain your situation, you’ll be able to get a hold of someone there who can give you answers to most of your coffee-related questions.
tsingy · 3 years ago
Thanks a lot, I will reach out to them.