Getting one of my comments banned by dang in his calm and substantiated manner was a wakeup moment for me. I like my discussions hot, but this was the time where I realized that keeping a discussion valuable and on point is probably more important than winning it in the grand scheme of things.
Incidentally, it also gradually managed to cure me from free-speech absolutism. (By now, I think almost all Xisms and extremes are nonsense, but that‘s a different hot discussion to be had).
"isms in my opinion, are not good.". --ferris Beuller
I find it interesting that you like to resolve conflict using passionate discussion. Some of my best friends are this way. I have always preferred to calmly put forward supporting evidence, taking turns like a card game. I always felt like allowing myself to become emotional when debating something meant I had lost. That is what my debate teachers said. But my friends felt if I wasn't passionate, I must not be invested in the conversation and had thus lost. It took a bit for us to understand each other. Particularly because I wasn't really invested in winning, just finding out which position was correct.
At my last job, I was brought in by the then new CTO to make their company “cloud native” as they were both trying to bring development in house and pivot toward selling access to our micro services to large health care providers. We aggregated publicly available (non PII) provider data from all 50 states and national databases.
I never had a formal interview. We met for lunch through a recruiter that was helping him hire. We just talked like adults. I had no real non theoretical AWS experience at the time. But I had led projects before.
He took a chance on me. After a couple of months and we got to know each other. I told him that neither one of us had time for “shit sandwiches”. We have a lot to do and we need to be able to be honest with each other.
After a while, when we were just talking alone he would just be blunt. He once asked me “why are you coming to me with this shit. You have admin access to everything. Come up with a solution and let me know how much it will cost”. I would also tell him “you know in your heart that’s a dumb move and isn’t going to turn out well”.
We had passionate technical disagreements. But if the argument was well made, either one of us would “disagree and commit” or change our opinions.
We got a lot of shit done. Two years later, I ended up at AWS in ProServe almost exclusively because he pushed me to be better, more articulate, stretch myself, etc and the company had an exit for 10x revenue (small company - $30 million exit). I probably would have gotten about $50K - $70K if I had stayed or about $30K if I had exercised my options - not life changing money. But my two year sign on bonus was more than that at AWS.
I still talk to him sometimes and he said one of the major motivating factors for the acquisition is how well my designs stood up to the growth and increase in traffic right after Covid and they could point at their cloud maturity - scalability, redundancy, etc.
> I always felt like allowing myself to become emotional when debating something meant I had lost.
Nope, the new meta is just whoever is more obstinate and has the bigger microphone. You want to land zingers while ignoring context. Nuance is for the weak. After all it’s not like anyone is trying to change minds anymore, just get them points.
Similar, when I went a bit overboard feeding a troll I got a calmly worded request to not do it again and to refresh on the guidelines -- which I did. It seemed like a fair request.
I've tried to keep it in mind since too. I also set my delay setting to 10 minutes so that I can self-mod anything that reads back a bit too snarky. That's handy.
Something else was swapping out HN replies by email to HN replies by RSS. Can't get caught up in a flamewar if I only check once a day :)
The moderation style here (light handed on first infraction, and ideally paid for the work) will be kept in mind if I'm ever running a community of some sort.
I also had pleasant interactions with dang. Thanks!
> Incidentally, it also gradually managed to cure me from free-speech absolutism. (By now, I think almost all Xisms and extremes are nonsense, but that‘s a different hot discussion to be had).
Just out of curiosity, were you in favour of absolute free-speech on a private forum like HN, or that there shouldn't be laws banning specific speech acts?
It was more of a philosophical than a political support of free speech, minted by the same forces of the early internet (in a time of true single-channel mainstream media) that a lot of us older hackers experienced.
It‘s just that over time I realized that in such a situation not the most accurate and consistent voice would win, just the most obnoxious, manipulating and brazenly lying.
There seems to be a tipping point lurking behind „pretty free speech“.
Counter-intuitively, I‘ve seen deeper, way more meaningful, effective and vulnerable conversation happening in places with very high amounts of moderation (EO Gestalt language protocol, Chatham House rules).
Count me in as a fan of well done moderation these days.
I guess. I have very mixed feelings about HN moderation, but not dang.
I think dang does an awesome job. I feel like he does such a good job, that I hope he has a really good support network, and a great therapist, too! That's not an insult. Just that I can't imagine how hard it must be for him.
However, HN guidelines are so ridiculous they feel like laws (especially in the US): you're probably breaking one of them with almost all of your comments. For example, here is one of the guidelines:
> Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. If you want to emphasize a word or phrase, put asterisks around it and it will get italicized.
What? Hahaha. The level of policing here (and how much it is up to interpretation) makes them impossible to follow!
Again, dang is awesome. I wish him the best. I don't think anyone else could do that job.
The guidelines are (I assume intentionally) vague enough that moderation can selectively object to basically anything, claim it's on the basis of tone/personal attack/flamewar risk/etc, link to the guidelines with no further explanation, and call it a day.
He he, yeah I've been told off a few times too. Quite militant with the things I care about but sometimes that needs to be tempered and he really does make HN a better place.
I read OP's post as a change from an absolutism to pragmatism. Absolutists on any matter are at risk of behaving like paladins* or tyrants. The change I imagined from it was from "Any speech is good regardless of consequences." to "Yeah, sometimes there are better (such as, less hurtful, or more productive) ways speak, and encouraging that is sometimes helpful."
* A paladin attitude: "Anything which supports my view is Right; any fallout from trying to enforce my view is Good; anything that doesn't support my view is Wrong; anyone who is against my view is my rightful enemy upon whom any harm is Righteous."
Many a long time forum has come and gone, degraded in culture, succumbed to featuritis or any of the many possible ends such gatherings online can face as the years slip by. It really is special how HN has stayed on balance a place one can discover fascinating new things and people who stimulate the mind. Moderation plays a huge role in tending that spirit, and I too am truly grateful for the work you do here.
Happy holidays to the whole of HN as well. Moderation tends things, but the great people far more knowledgeable and from far different backgrounds from me who submit and discuss are the meat on the bones! Thanks to all of you, you've helped me through quite a few challenges!
Thank you @pg and @dang for maintaining this forum, because you’ve been my MBA.
See, I’m an engineer, a moderately good one, passionate with business but unable to get the connections to start one, let alone know how to start one.
Thanks to countless essays, from Paul Graham’s to Kalzumeus or Joel on Software, and countless comments, bouncing ideas, and books (Founders at Work), etc., when I started my company, I knew exactly what to do, how to react to catastrophic events, how to notice a pivot, etc. It led me to hiring 3 employees and having the money to hire 5-10 more, bootstrapped and always spending wisely. Thank you HN.
I wonder whether there’s now a place to learn how to go from 3 employees to 30. We hear very few stories of managers on HN, as opposed to stories of founders.
Lots of my friends call me talented, and treat my 10-year business with respect.
Well, I have a little secret.
It’s always been you, HN.
PS: Maybe I should apply to YCombinator in the end, to give you the 7% of my business I owe you ;)
There's a real wealth of thoughts from dang about this site buried in there! Also definitions for MOT (Major Ongoing Topic) and SNI (Specific New Information) which I'd not seen before.
Thank you to everyone participating in HN. pg, dang, but also everyone posting and commenting: you're the part of what makes it a unique place.
I've learned a lot from HN. It's been a source of distraction feeding my ADHD, but it's also made my knowledge a lot more vast and thorough and my thinking sharper. I'm grateful, and I'm sure I'll continue revisiting it almost every day.
May everyone's holiday bring you all that you cherish in this period.
Has Dang ever done any AMA? Would love to know how he doesn't get burnt out.
I once emailed him about a very minor thing, he replied at the same day and was very accomodating. I was very happy about that but at the same time was very confused. I bet he is getting hundreds of email like that but how does he manage the time for them?
I emailed him with something and silly as wondering why I didn’t have downvote powers and he replied saying I was 1 off and he upvoted a comment of mine to push me over the threshold. Such a small thing but doing small things for everybody must be a lot of work.
While I really dislike the track of moderation policy on HN over the last 5+ years, I do have a lot of respect for dang being willing to engage in earnest discussion about moderation when prompted.
I came here in 2019, and I personally think, HN is LinkedIn but with anonymous people. Most people I know professionally know my HN handle. At least for me, the idea of HN being a place where people exercise free flowing polarizing ideas is pretty foreign. Everyone here follows a particular framework, but I wouldn't call it monolithic.
I am not exactly sure, how it was 5 years ago, but I have seen some older HN users. They are busy with their family, and they have outdoorsy hobbies now. So, I think you will always see new blood in this place with different ideas and cultural values, while the older users getting more interested in carpentry or sailing their boats.
HN is literally the only place online that doesn't feel like a toxic environment.
Reminds me of older internet forums where you can have your arguments but at the end of the day, you realize everyone is on the same team more or less.
> HN is literally the only place online that doesn't feel like a toxic environment.
I don't doubt that this is your lived experience, but if that's the case, you might want to consider adjusting your media diet. There are nearly infinitely many calm little corners.
To think I've been pronouncing it like the minced oath all these years.
Maybe it is, but now my head's going to insist on "Danjee," rhymes with Angie.
Hacker News, a.k.a. DanG's List. ;)
Sincerely, thanks, Dan, for all you do here. HN has some of the most polite and thought-provoking online discussions I know of thanks in no small part to your work, and I come back year after year for it. You've helped make this place a hugely valuable resource and just a genuinely nice hangout spot. Thanks again and Happy Holidays to you and yours.
Thanks and uh, sorry for any headaches, I know I'm a unconventional guy with some ideas that particularly recently aren't the easiest to defend. I never intend to create a moderation burden but I fear it may have happened on some occasions this year.
Also I believe that it may be more than Dang behind the scenes so thanks to the rest of the team as well.
Readit News
Incidentally, it also gradually managed to cure me from free-speech absolutism. (By now, I think almost all Xisms and extremes are nonsense, but that‘s a different hot discussion to be had).
This forum wouldn‘t be the same without him.
Thanks dang.
I find it interesting that you like to resolve conflict using passionate discussion. Some of my best friends are this way. I have always preferred to calmly put forward supporting evidence, taking turns like a card game. I always felt like allowing myself to become emotional when debating something meant I had lost. That is what my debate teachers said. But my friends felt if I wasn't passionate, I must not be invested in the conversation and had thus lost. It took a bit for us to understand each other. Particularly because I wasn't really invested in winning, just finding out which position was correct.
I never had a formal interview. We met for lunch through a recruiter that was helping him hire. We just talked like adults. I had no real non theoretical AWS experience at the time. But I had led projects before.
He took a chance on me. After a couple of months and we got to know each other. I told him that neither one of us had time for “shit sandwiches”. We have a lot to do and we need to be able to be honest with each other.
After a while, when we were just talking alone he would just be blunt. He once asked me “why are you coming to me with this shit. You have admin access to everything. Come up with a solution and let me know how much it will cost”. I would also tell him “you know in your heart that’s a dumb move and isn’t going to turn out well”.
We had passionate technical disagreements. But if the argument was well made, either one of us would “disagree and commit” or change our opinions.
We got a lot of shit done. Two years later, I ended up at AWS in ProServe almost exclusively because he pushed me to be better, more articulate, stretch myself, etc and the company had an exit for 10x revenue (small company - $30 million exit). I probably would have gotten about $50K - $70K if I had stayed or about $30K if I had exercised my options - not life changing money. But my two year sign on bonus was more than that at AWS.
I still talk to him sometimes and he said one of the major motivating factors for the acquisition is how well my designs stood up to the growth and increase in traffic right after Covid and they could point at their cloud maturity - scalability, redundancy, etc.
Nope, the new meta is just whoever is more obstinate and has the bigger microphone. You want to land zingers while ignoring context. Nuance is for the weak. After all it’s not like anyone is trying to change minds anymore, just get them points.
It's OK to have dispassionate discussions, too. But I agree with your friends, they just aren't fun!
I've tried to keep it in mind since too. I also set my delay setting to 10 minutes so that I can self-mod anything that reads back a bit too snarky. That's handy.
Something else was swapping out HN replies by email to HN replies by RSS. Can't get caught up in a flamewar if I only check once a day :)
The moderation style here (light handed on first infraction, and ideally paid for the work) will be kept in mind if I'm ever running a community of some sort.
> Incidentally, it also gradually managed to cure me from free-speech absolutism. (By now, I think almost all Xisms and extremes are nonsense, but that‘s a different hot discussion to be had).
Just out of curiosity, were you in favour of absolute free-speech on a private forum like HN, or that there shouldn't be laws banning specific speech acts?
It‘s just that over time I realized that in such a situation not the most accurate and consistent voice would win, just the most obnoxious, manipulating and brazenly lying.
There seems to be a tipping point lurking behind „pretty free speech“.
Counter-intuitively, I‘ve seen deeper, way more meaningful, effective and vulnerable conversation happening in places with very high amounts of moderation (EO Gestalt language protocol, Chatham House rules).
Count me in as a fan of well done moderation these days.
I think dang does an awesome job. I feel like he does such a good job, that I hope he has a really good support network, and a great therapist, too! That's not an insult. Just that I can't imagine how hard it must be for him.
However, HN guidelines are so ridiculous they feel like laws (especially in the US): you're probably breaking one of them with almost all of your comments. For example, here is one of the guidelines:
> Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. If you want to emphasize a word or phrase, put asterisks around it and it will get italicized.
What? Hahaha. The level of policing here (and how much it is up to interpretation) makes them impossible to follow!
Again, dang is awesome. I wish him the best. I don't think anyone else could do that job.
It's entirely unsurprising that people who appreciate current moderator behavior also have zero philosophical backbone.
* A paladin attitude: "Anything which supports my view is Right; any fallout from trying to enforce my view is Good; anything that doesn't support my view is Wrong; anyone who is against my view is my rightful enemy upon whom any harm is Righteous."
Happy holidays to the whole of HN as well. Moderation tends things, but the great people far more knowledgeable and from far different backgrounds from me who submit and discuss are the meat on the bones! Thanks to all of you, you've helped me through quite a few challenges!
See, I’m an engineer, a moderately good one, passionate with business but unable to get the connections to start one, let alone know how to start one.
Thanks to countless essays, from Paul Graham’s to Kalzumeus or Joel on Software, and countless comments, bouncing ideas, and books (Founders at Work), etc., when I started my company, I knew exactly what to do, how to react to catastrophic events, how to notice a pivot, etc. It led me to hiring 3 employees and having the money to hire 5-10 more, bootstrapped and always spending wisely. Thank you HN.
I wonder whether there’s now a place to learn how to go from 3 employees to 30. We hear very few stories of managers on HN, as opposed to stories of founders.
Lots of my friends call me talented, and treat my 10-year business with respect.
Well, I have a little secret.
It’s always been you, HN.
PS: Maybe I should apply to YCombinator in the end, to give you the 7% of my business I owe you ;)
For the unfamiliar, here’s more information on Dang:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th...
There's a real wealth of thoughts from dang about this site buried in there! Also definitions for MOT (Major Ongoing Topic) and SNI (Specific New Information) which I'd not seen before.
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490
Cool article :)
I would love to see this "Emacs file" :D
Jokes aside, a nice article
https://archive.ph/DfXFL
Best wishes to all.
- https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sctb
Though per Dang, since sometime in late 2019, he’s no longer a HN mod:
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25055115
* Might be wrong, but my understanding is that Dang is now the only official moderator, but others do help out unofficially.
I've learned a lot from HN. It's been a source of distraction feeding my ADHD, but it's also made my knowledge a lot more vast and thorough and my thinking sharper. I'm grateful, and I'm sure I'll continue revisiting it almost every day.
May everyone's holiday bring you all that you cherish in this period.
I once emailed him about a very minor thing, he replied at the same day and was very accomodating. I was very happy about that but at the same time was very confused. I bet he is getting hundreds of email like that but how does he manage the time for them?
I am not exactly sure, how it was 5 years ago, but I have seen some older HN users. They are busy with their family, and they have outdoorsy hobbies now. So, I think you will always see new blood in this place with different ideas and cultural values, while the older users getting more interested in carpentry or sailing their boats.
Reminds me of older internet forums where you can have your arguments but at the end of the day, you realize everyone is on the same team more or less.
That has been a blessing.
I don't doubt that this is your lived experience, but if that's the case, you might want to consider adjusting your media diet. There are nearly infinitely many calm little corners.
Maybe it is, but now my head's going to insist on "Danjee," rhymes with Angie.
Hacker News, a.k.a. DanG's List. ;)
Sincerely, thanks, Dan, for all you do here. HN has some of the most polite and thought-provoking online discussions I know of thanks in no small part to your work, and I come back year after year for it. You've helped make this place a hugely valuable resource and just a genuinely nice hangout spot. Thanks again and Happy Holidays to you and yours.
Also I believe that it may be more than Dang behind the scenes so thanks to the rest of the team as well.