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Posted by u/factorialboy 3 years ago
Ask HN: What Happens to Older Designers?
We have seen a lot of discussions on HN regarding ageism in engineering, and the paths for an engineer are more or less visible for me.

What happens to ageing / older designers? What is their path if not for an inevitable pivot to management / product management?

theoa · 3 years ago
I'm 75. You will pull the keyboard out of my cold, dead hands.

"Nobody knows you are a dog on the internet" Ditto being aged ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_...

Most of the technologies I play with - HTML5, webGL, Three.js etc - did not exist ten years ago. So it's a level playing field.

There's more open source stuff on GitHub that needs help and mentoring than you can shake a keyboard, er, stick at.

My digital afterlife is destined to be a thought-leader for generations to come. Fingers crossed.

As I started to understand that I am a designer, I came to realize that my own life is open to being designed. Day in and day out.

It turns out that that my design of my own life is one of my better efforts. ;-)

wiseowise · 3 years ago
I wish I’ll have your passion at such age. Kudos to you, old man.
wjnc · 3 years ago
I fear this man has the youth in him many of us won’t discover and permanently fear we’ve lost. It is great that he found it though!
uxcolumbo · 3 years ago
I guess the OP referred to ageism as loss of job security.

What’s been your experience? Not everyone is a Spiekermann, Esslinger or Rams. Have you lost out to the newer crowd… more and more folks finish these 3-6 month UX boot camps and not all companies value experience or understand it’s not just about pixel pushing.

Or does OSS design help pay the bills? I’m guessing getting involved in OSS is more about maintaining the design muscle and helping folks out.

heisenbit · 3 years ago
At the moment it does not look like there is a really an issue with job security. Due to the high rate at which boomers are retiring the next generation which always was under the shadow of the boomers has become critical to keep the shops running.
ineedausername · 3 years ago
Please sir advise how to become like you, thanks.
Nomentatus · 3 years ago
Meditation, regular hours of sleep in true darkness, lots of soluble fiber, not much passive transportation. (But I'm just 65 and inventing not designing or coding now.)
jeofken · 3 years ago
What a wonderful message! Keep it up :)
every · 3 years ago
At least now I know I'm not the oldest one here (barely)... =)
6510 · 3 years ago
Okay, ultimate form it is then.

Next question.

brudgers · 3 years ago
Good designers design irrespective of age.

I mean an older designer should have a rolladex full of people who they worked below, beside, and above over the course of their career to break out when they are looking for something interesting to do.

A career is an ecosystem that grows or atrophies based on the careers that surround it. The most important connection to the rest of the ecosystem is will-they-go-out-of-their-way-to-work-with-you-again.

That's true whether a potential move is up or sideways.

Good luck.

usea · 3 years ago
> an older designer should have a rolladex full of people who they worked below, beside, and above over the course of their career

As a non-traditional professional in a lot of ways, I've found these kinds of assumptions at the core of a lot of discrimination (age and otherwise). A person should be judged based on their skills/value, not based on where someone thinks they "should" be in their life based on stereotypes and bias.

Expecting a person to be a certain way due to their age is harmful to them.

brudgers · 3 years ago
I don’t expect an older designer to have that Rolodex because I am an older designer and don’t have one.

I just understand that that is a problem that wishing the world was fair in ways that benefited me won’t solve.

If the OP doesn’t have the Rolodex of people who would work with them again - like me - then it is a problem.

Or possibly a symptom of a deeper issue of why people don’t want to work with them.

Or possibly the result of bad luck.

Or some combination of all that.

None of which “it ain’t fair” changes. Either a person is so good they can’t be ignored or they aren’t. And sometimes what can’t be ignored is a chip on the shoulder.

[edit]

The comment points to reasons a younger designer may tend to be a better hire.

A younger designer might ask “what’s a Rolodex?” and then start filling theirs up instead of arguing about it.

It is easy to work with someone who is still learning. It is unpleasant to work with someone argumentative.

Came to understand that the hard way.

dymk · 3 years ago
You should always be networking over your career, regardless of who you are…
mrxd · 3 years ago
This is untrue for the simple reason that your friends’ employers wouldn’t allow it. Hiring practices based on personal references opens the door to discrimination lawsuits, so every HR department creates objective interview processes that remove such advantages.
naet · 3 years ago
I disagree strongly. Personal referrals are one of the most effective ways to get a job, and also one of the most effective ways to increase hiring quality. At the very least a personal reference will fast track you into an interview stage ahead of most other cold applications.
JamesianP · 3 years ago
I don't think not-your-friend counts as a protected class quite yet. But considering how outraged people get when they interview for a job but the offer goes to someone's buddy, maybe it will be outlawed sooner or later.
gaadd33 · 3 years ago
Can you cite a lawsuit over discrimination when someone referred the candidate and that's the aspect in contention?
hsbauauvhabzb · 3 years ago
Spoken like a true optimist.
keyle · 3 years ago
It depends what you compare it against.

Software development changes all the time, developers constantly have to upskill. Trends drive demand and NIH runs strong in the industry. There is nothing we're doing today that couldn't be done with Java for example.

Design on the other hand is interfacing with humans. Humans are meat sacks who hardly evolve or change, in fact, you might argue, they regress. For this reason, ageing as a designer is really not as challenging as being a developer. Sure, there is the newest shiny CSS frameworks, and people abandon Photoshop for Sketch then Figma. Etc. But overall, it's extremely stable. Trends, skeuomorphism, flat, neo-flat... whatever the industry do, the adaptation isn't too bad. If anything, since we moved away from skeuomorphism, we lost a whole lot of true pixel wizards. Anyone can design flat buttons, but the stuff that interface designers were doing in the early 2000s is a lost art. But I digress, overall, humans don't change, so design is a safe industry to age in. Source: I'm both.

iancmceachern · 3 years ago
I agree with the gist of this. After my initial "10k hours" learning the technical craft, my career progression as a product design engineer (I design hardware, mostly medical devices) has been driven by my ability to understand humans and their interactions with objects, not technical. It's important to keep up on the technical side, but that's not what drives good design and good designers in my field. It's Don Norman mind of stuff. I regularly work with long in the tooth designers, ex-ideo types, and they have a keen understanding of the human side of design that's difficult to teach and pick up quickly, it takes experience, wisdom. It's not about typing faster, clicking faster, or even deep technical details, it's the big picture stuff.
awestroke · 3 years ago
> There is nothing we're doing today that couldn't be done with Java for example.

Wow. Strongly disagree.

lornemalvo · 3 years ago
Example?
vogt · 3 years ago
Many go into management, as you say. In my experience the best managers were never even remotely the best designers in terms of pure raw talent. That is sorta secondary to your question, and just kinda my own personal inject. At the same time though, I think it supports the idea that staff/principal/"Distinguished whatever" titles for design serve a use case. In fact, some BigCos have adopted that model similar to Staff Software Engineer, etc. FAANG/FAANG-adjacent types. I think Amazon, Slack, Discord have staff+ level designers. I don't know the official job requirements, but I'd assume 7-10+ years of real actual digital product design work.

I imagine we will see more of that. People like me who have been around a while or longer are getting older, and not all of us want to pivot to management. Can't even imagine doing it!

I've been in this industry for ~10 years, and am getting pretty burnt out on it. Lately though things have been better. If you stick around in the field and find an answer to this question...reach out and let me know? :) Best of luck!

simplotek · 3 years ago
> I don't know the official job requirements, but I'd assume 7-10+ years of real actual digital product design work.

I'm not sure your point stands any scrutiny. Titles such as principal engineer or staff+ levels are not granted by seniority or at an anniversary. They are granted if an individual meets all the technical and organizational requirements, as well as career accomplishments, that make a case for a promotion. You don't get that just by sitting at your desk.

Also, principal engineers at Amazon, a company renowned for the average SDE career spanning only around 2-3 years, tend to have been in the company for over a decade and comprise a very small fraction of the whole engineering community.

vogt · 3 years ago
>I'm not sure your point stands any scrutiny. Titles such as principal engineer or staff+ levels are not granted by seniority or at an anniversary.

OK, fair enough - instead of guessing, I went and pulled up some current job postings:

-Staff Product Designer @ DoorDash: "You have 8+ years of experience as a product/UX designer in a relevant industry"

-Staff Product Designer @ Opendoor: "Experience: At least 8 years of relevant experience as an individual contributor on an in-house product design team"

-Staff Product Designer @ Mozilla: "5-7 years of professional product design experience"

-Sr. Staff Product Designer @ CNN Digital: "12+ years professional experience, specifically as a Product Designer

-Staff Product Designer @ Ro (Roman): "8+ years of experience shipping high-impact and successful digital products across mobile and web at consumer-facing/focused products and brands"

So to me, the OP question wasn't "What makes a Staff designer?" it was "What happens to designers as they get older and don't want to pivot to management/PMing?" The answer I was attempting to give was "It looks like there are lots of Staff/Product+ roles opening, which may be good fits for such people." Maybe the main hangup you found was my reference to FAANG/FAANG-adjacent companies, and I may have been off the mark there.

And make no mistake about it, I won't hide it - I'm definitely wish-casting here as an old guy in the design industry myself.

moneywoes · 3 years ago
I believe average tenure at Amazon was 1 year
uxcolumbo · 3 years ago
What exactly is / has been burning you out?

PS your profile needs an email address if you want folks to reach out ;)

vogt · 3 years ago
Hey good call! I thought mine was, but thanks for correcting.

Truly, I think I just find the design work mundane at this point - maybe just by virtue of doing it for so many years. I do a lot of coding work (throwaway UI component prototypes, that kind of thing) and am finding more joy there.

But part of it too is that I work at a big financial corp who are a great employer, but our tools ecosystem and ability to share work with the outside world is _incredibly_ limited. Just a common trade-off of working at such a company, and I understand why that has to be. But nothing fulfilled me more than shipping things at a startup or small, nimble company. Hoping I can get back to that when our family is a little more comfortable financially.

incomingpain · 3 years ago
>What happens to ageing / older designers? What is their path if not for an inevitable pivot to management / product management?

They are brought to the farm. The slow country life lets them recover from the burnout/stress.

In all seriousness, discrimination isn't universal. If someone doesn't hire you because of your skin colour or age, someone else will. Their loss, not your loss.

iancmceachern · 3 years ago
This is my experience.
ah27182 · 3 years ago
I feel everyone had an opinion on this thread, but i’d be more interested in hearing a first hand experience with being older and a designer.
iancmceachern · 3 years ago
I know lots of them, they typically exist outside the typical career politics, bureaucracy, etc. The ones I know still doing it do it amazingly well, and are kept busy with consulting and working for people they've known and met through their careers.
highspeedbus · 3 years ago
They keep working till retirement, as everyone else.
FerretFred · 3 years ago
Hmmm.. not quite 70 but retiring Real Soon Now. I'm allegedly a software developer but I make small (efficient) web sites as well. I spend a lot of time with side projects that are getting more complex than the day job ever was. I've survived by (a) always having a side-project on the go all the time, and (b) using own time and self-education to teach myself skills that my soon-to-be-ex-employer wouldn't pay for. Oh, and (c); self-hosting to create proofs-of-concept - great fun! 70-onwards? More of the same, and I quote.. https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24