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Posted by u/sph 3 years ago
Ask HN: Where are the good platforms for contract work?
I've been looking for contract work for the past couple months, and it's been dire. All the job boards are looking for full time employees, and on Hacker News the only recommendation is Toptal.

Is there really no other platform for decently paid contract work that's not a complete race to the bottom? I find I'm close to having to abandon 10 years of consulting because I have no idea where to find anything else than full-time employment.

The other two job boards I've been keeping an eye on are mostly about React and other frontend roles, with offers few and far between. Linkedin is similarly dire for contract work.

Is Toptal the only option for someone with 16 years experience that wouldn't want to work for peanuts? Or just going back to being an employee?

(In case anyone's reading that's looking for a senior Elixir/Rust/Go engineer/sysadmin, resume's in my profile. I'm based in London.)

EDIT: excellent responses so far, thanks. I like how many are suggesting going through recruiters, while the common motif on other similar posts is to avoid LinkedIn. I've started cleaning up my Linkedin profile this week, and I already have a dozen recruiters setting up appointments with me. I will try and explicitly request contract jobs with them.

ChrisMarshallNY · 3 years ago
One thing that makes me sad, is the old "contract agent" seems to have gone the way of the dodo.

I clearly remember these folks. They acted in almost exactly the same way as literary or artist agents; searching out opportunities for their clients, and setting up interviews, etc. As a hiring manager, I dealt with them frequently, and had friends that used them.

They used to make a lot of money, because they would charge a percentage of the rate they negotiated for you.

Nowadays, it looks like they have been replaced by "race to the bottom" sites, like Upwork, or these contract companies, that hire you at a fairly low rate, and shop you out for very high rates. You get to "enjoy" the crappy treatment most companies give to contractors, but at rates lower than the employees that sit next to you, shooting spitballs at you.

I encountered this, when working with recruiters, after leaving my last company. The ones that didn't immediately hang up on me, after finding out I was older, started trying to lowball me into being one of their contract shop employees. They would love telling me that I shouldn't ask for too much, "because of my age," before "generously" mentioning that they happen to have a contract shop that would be willing to do me the huge favor of "throwing some work at me."

It's a real slime-pit, these days.

brtkdotse · 3 years ago
They're alive and well in Northern Europe at least. I'd say a majority of contracting work is done through them since they somehow get exclusivity deals with big clients like H&M, Scania, SAAB and the like. They charge around 5-15% (almost always 10% though) of every invoice.

Before you balk at the number, consider that during my almost 5 years as a solo contractor I've spent _zero_ hours doing sales. None. When I want a new assignment I send one email and within a week or two I have a 6 month contract.

senko · 3 years ago
Are they contract agents, tho, as in, you (the developer) employ them to find you a gig? Or are they staffing agencies, as in, you work for them, they invoice the client and pass the income minus their fee to you?

I've seen plenty of the latter but hadn't heard of the former before.

pessimizer · 3 years ago
> They charge around 5-15% (almost always 10% though) of every invoice.

That's nothing to balk at. In the US, being a contractor is like selling wholesale, and being an agency is like selling retail. I'd expect the contractor cut to be 30%-50%, and the rest to go to the agency.

benjaminwootton · 3 years ago
The end client is usually the one hiring and paying these people though, not the contractor.

In a way they are operating as a match maker and making a living by taking a percentage of the day rate, so it is partly perception. However, I think it's fair to say that they are hired by and represent the interests of the end client rather than the contractor.

vr46 · 3 years ago
Huh, I’ve just moved to Northern Europe and had no idea this was a thing here (from London). I guess I’d better start Googlying.
Aulig · 3 years ago
Where do you find these contract agents? Or which are some popular ones?
thr0wawayf00 · 3 years ago
> Nowadays, it looks like they have been replaced by "race to the bottom" sites, like Upwork, or these contract companies, that hire you at a fairly low rate, and shop you out for very high rates.

I can't help but feel like these platforms are like Uber for programmers: devoid of all meaningful professional contact and ultimately the commodification of programming as a job. The power dynamic has shifted to give most of the power to the buyer. Sad times indeed.

Buttons840 · 3 years ago
And yet it's never been easier to replicate the core source of value for so many multi-billion dollar companies. I know that doesn't capture all the realities, but how many CEOs when asked what their company has accomplished could simply say "we created a webpage". Stange times.
spearingthehead · 3 years ago
It's especially worse when they are required by TOS to not engage in communication with bidders/clients outside the platform.

This would be like, for example, if you set up a job interview from a listing at Indeed, and then Indeed demands that you do not use regular email to stay in contact with the employer, you must use their own messaging system. And you can't even voice chat elsewhere unless it's a link that is provided by Indeed so they can be aware of it.

Just the walled garden aspect of freelancer websites is what turns me off.

giraffe_lady · 3 years ago
The real question isn't "are they?" it's "why were so many of us so confident it wouldn't come for us?"
senko · 3 years ago
Were contract agents really a thing for software developers?

I was just thinking there could definitely be a niche like that, there must be a bunch of people that would love contracting but hate bizdev etc.

Up until know I hadn't heard those ever existed.

ChrisMarshallNY · 3 years ago
I can assure you that they really were a thing. We used to joke that they were "pimps."

But I worked for one company for about 27 years, and never used one (except when hiring).

poulsbohemian · 3 years ago
Back in the late 90s it was definitely a thing. I'd argue that part of what diminished it then was the permatemp lawsuits over who was an employee vs contractor. Many BigTech companies swung away from working with independent contractors for a period of time.
ravenstine · 3 years ago
Same. I would be way more interested in contract work if I didn't have to do all the work to find clients. I would trust a human being more than a website whose only goal is to lower my value while raising theirs (ex. Upwork).
randomdata · 3 years ago
Yes. I dabbled with one a couple of decades ago. I didn't find it to be all that fruitful of a relationship, though, which may be why they have fallen out of favour.
ryandvm · 3 years ago
We did this at our small dev/design studio for about 5 years. It worked amazingly well. The contractors always had work and the "contract agent" got 10% of the contract in perpetuity.

The downside was that we were a fairly small operation and so we only had one agent. When he left to pursue his own business venture we were unsuccessful at replacing him and ended up closing up shop.

A platform that facilitated this type of arrangement would be valuable indeed...

ChrisMarshallNY · 3 years ago
Yeah, but there must be a reason they all left.

I suspect that the fault lies in the hiring companies.

kposehn · 3 years ago
Upwork et al have really made it easy to resource on demand for a myriad of needs, but they don't really fill the gap where knowledge, skill and trust are needed on. a high-priority project. There's probably a lot of opportunity if you can find someone who is working to fill demand for work, even if they're not an agent per se.

Funny enough, I'm finding myself doing this gap too. Last December I ended up consulting as a fraction CMO/VP for mid- to late-stage startups. As the business has grown I've had demand for more work than I can fill, especially related to software, data infrastructure and analytics. At this point I'm starting to bring people into projects to augment what I can offer and frankly can't do it fast enough.

I know there's a lot of people doing similar work as myself, so looking through your network and checking with people who have found their niche as a consultant are probably a great resource.

larksimian · 3 years ago
My recruiter(in the UK) sends me contracting offers as well. Am I missing something about what a contracting agent does?
benjaminwootton · 3 years ago
The responses in this whole sub-thread are a bit strange regarding the UK.

The typical model is for end clients or employers to hire a recruitment agent to find them either contract or permanent staff.

For contract staff, the agency will invoice the customer, keep approximately 10% and pass the difference to the contractor.

A contractor can choose to work as a LTD company or through an umbrella organisation depending on how much admin they want to take on and requirements of the client such as IR35.

Consultancies are a slightly different model where they own the outcome and more of the risk, and are perceived to be bringing IP and value as well as just the resource. This is where there is a the big delta between what the contractor is paid and what the consultancy charge.

In some cases, the agent can of course be disintermediated and the end client can recruit people directly.

In 20 years working in the London contract market, I have never heard of a situation where a contractor hires an agent to go out and sell their services. You can however build a relationship with agents to remain front of mine when their customers (end clients) have a relevant opportunity.

In a way, contract agents are operating as a match maker and making a living by taking a percentage of the day rate, so it is partly perception who is their customer. However, I think it's fair to say that they are hired by and represent the interests of the end client rather than the contractor.

I know you didn't ask all of these questions, but it seemed like the best place to respond :-).

haspok · 3 years ago
Sometimes - especially after the IR35 misery - an agent might also come with an umbrella company that will readily employ you for the duration of your contract for a cut. People usually tended to avoid these solutions due to tax inefficiencies. Not everyone though, I knew some people who chose comfort and didn't want to deal with the admin of an LTD and constant invoicing (however small inconvenience that might be), so they just went with the umbrella. I presume this is now a much more popular solution... An umbrella can also be provided by your accountant.
ChrisMarshallNY · 3 years ago
They used to be very similar.

Recruiters in the US don't really seem to work that way. Instead, they have contract shops, and hire you as an employee, or 1099 (contractor without the money).

I am very disappointed in what has happened to the technical recruitment industry. It used to be full of older folks, that obviously made great money. These days, it seems to be all young folks, and they don't seem to make anywhere near as much as they used to.

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jokethrowaway · 3 years ago
Yes and no. Contract companies massively overcharge so your contract rate can still be market rate.

8 years ago in London I knew about some companies charging 1000+£ per day to customers and paying the contractors 400-600£.

You should still avoid those places, but many contractors didn't have the contacts to charge higher than 400-600£.

mberger · 3 years ago
I feel the same having worked for a couple contracting companies. I think if I job hop in the near future, which is unlikely given the recent layoffs, I'll go for a company that is building a product. I'd rather the golden handcuffs than the freedom of mobility.
dkaigorodov · 3 years ago
Same, building product feels great and stock options are usually worth it
wingshayz · 3 years ago
I think you've just had a bad experience with recruiters. To me that's exactly what they do, helping you find the best position and taking a cut for it
j0hnyl · 3 years ago
I wonder, does this still exist in other countries/markets?
eatYourFood · 3 years ago
Doesn't the US have an active contractor market like the UK? In the UK there are lots of job boards with a contract filter and many recruitment agents deal exclusively in contracts rather than perm roles. Is this different in the US?
sph · 3 years ago
Care to direct me to these UK-specific job boards for contracts?
caseydm · 3 years ago
I was very successful on UpWork. However, it is not something you can jump into with no work history on the site, like "I have 16 years experience so my rate is $125/hr." People don't believe you when you say that. They want to see proof from a third party. So you need to start lower ($30 to $50/hr), stay in a niche, and successfully complete jobs while gradually raising your rates.

When someone sees glowing reviews and completed jobs, you become the "easy button" and they will pay more to decrease their risk. When they see 10 completed jobs with 5 star reviews, all mentioning the exact type of work they need, they can be pretty sure the 11th will be successful. It's possible to charge $125 or more an hour on UpWork and have to keep your settings updated so that you are not spammed with invites.

roflyear · 3 years ago
Upwork fees, and also being able to close your account for any reason (happened to me with 20 reviews, all 5 starts except 1), make it a deal killer.
caseydm · 3 years ago
I sound like a shill for Upwork (promise I'm not!). But the fees for long-term clients (>$10k in earnings) is 5%. If you go on your own and bill through a system you will likely pay 3%. So it's not that different.
sph · 3 years ago
I have history on Upwork, and pretty good one. But I haven't used it in 6 years, and my rate then was around $60/h and it's double that now. But I keep hearing how terrible and underpaid it is in here, hence this post.
caseydm · 3 years ago
I would give it another shot. Since your history is older you likely need to keep your rate at $60 for a while and complete a few jobs. But UpWork has the biggest market and there are plenty of people out there willing to pay for developers with a solid history.

People say it's underpaid or terrible, but part of that reputation comes from people doing one or two jobs and quitting. Plus, I've hired developers on UpWork and a lot of people suck at writing proposals. I have a lot of advice on that too.

roflyear · 3 years ago
Do not use UpWork. They take a big cut, the clients you get are generally garbage, and they can close your account (and even keep your funds) for any reason.
carvking · 3 years ago
This - I recently hired someone for 80$ an hour for a quick Sharepoint Powerblabber fix - one online meeting, he pointed me to the solution in 20 minutes, charged 30 minutes - everyone was happy.

All very professional - answered promptly knew his stuff + the necessary meet and greet in the beginning.

sgt · 3 years ago
It may also be a bit strategic from his side. You know he is reliable and doesn't overcharge now. He could be very useful going forward.
tluyben2 · 3 years ago
Do you use the spyware tools they want you to use ‘for your and their protection’? As a senior engineer and not in kindergarten, I cannot imagine anyone with over a year or so experience doing that.
caseydm · 3 years ago
No I never used any of that. I would have moved on to another job if someone insisted on it.
akuji1993 · 3 years ago
Toptal is trash if you're in the US or in EU. They have shit hourly rates and you compete against developers from anywhere in the world, so you can't ever match the rates they are throwing in.

If you are in the EU, check out Freelancermap, Austin Fraser, Hays, Malt, Darwin Recruitment, Upper.co (for less pay, but startup work).

I think one thing which is restricting your search is your tech stack. I'd honestly concentrate on finding something for Go, as I think you'll have the easiest time with that. You can try https://www.golangprojects.com/ and https://golang.cafe/ for that.

thr0wawayf00 · 3 years ago
Not only that, but their interview process is pretty insane. They wanted me to grind leetcode and do a week-long project and didn't give a lot of specifics about how much I could expect to make on the platform. Felt like a major time-suck without a lot of upside.
distrill · 3 years ago
They asked me a few times throughout the process what my rate was and it was never hinted that it was high, but when I actually got through I was pinged immediately and frequently about being "open to feedback about my rate". I think they want to have US people on offer even if they don't expect to pay any of them what they're expecting.
akuji1993 · 3 years ago
It was a complete and utter waste of time to apply and go through the process. I didn't know any better when I just started as a freelancer. Would never do a process like this again.
gbro3n · 3 years ago
Agree, there's just easier ways to make good money than this. I think the upside of pure freelance is only having to deal with my own code, but it's still not worth the hoops these companies make you jump through.
harel · 3 years ago
Toptal had me go through a paired technical test which I did ok but had a small minor fix about 1-2 seconds after the clock chimed 30 minutes. Failed me at that point. I never bothered to re-apply, mostly because I've been busy with client work. Interesting to hear that they not described favourably here. I was under the impression that this was the platform where much higher rates are acceptable.
mekoka · 3 years ago
I had the exact same experience. 30 minutes paired leetcode type test of moderate difficulty. My solution seemed algorithmically sound and efficient, but the test wasn't passing at the buzzer. The guy failed me and we said our goodbyes. As soon as we're done, I slowly look at the problem without the distraction and see that I just need to swap two variables. I email the guy back barely a minute after we hang up, explaining that I just figured what was missing. He emails me that he's sorry I have to try again in a few months. Three years later I'm here on HN learning that I dodged a bullet.

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Donux · 3 years ago
Absolute True. Some folks fall to exploitation trap thinking this is freelancing. I would say if someone is really very junior, then surely can try, otherwise - don't bother. Otherwise you would need to ask a question why not hybrid/fully remote full time company. There are lots of platforms/companies that purely focused on exploiting freelancers with "divide and rule" logic.
sph · 3 years ago
I'm in UK, and I've never heard of any of those sites you've mentioned. So it's much appreciated.
akuji1993 · 3 years ago
No problem :) For UK I have also made some nice experience with "Spinks", which is a UK based recruiter. I didn't have a project with them and the pay was more like B+, but the recruiters were nice and the projects sounded interesting. Might be worth a call.
zhxshen · 3 years ago
We had a guy from toptal for a while. He was okay, but nothing extraordinary. The odd thing is that nearly everyone they sent our way was of Eastern European extraction, with a demeanor & grooming more military than nerd, which I found most peculiar.
gkoberger · 3 years ago
Hey! I did freelancing for a long time. It takes a while to build up work, but ultimately the only sustainable model is word of mouth. But you have to get your first few clients...

There's lots of ways to build up work, but the way I did it was by creating a few fun projects and blog posts that ended up on HN. Each one had a "I'm doing freelancing work!" ad on them. (You're kinda doing this right now!)

It might not work for everyone, but I had by far the best success by creating something that would intrigue the people I wanted to hire me.

PragmaticPulp · 3 years ago
Contracting platforms are a race to the bottom.

Successful freelancing requires a lot of outreach. Start with your network and then move on to cold outreach to companies that might need your services.

Hint: If a company has full-time job postings for your work domain, it means they need your services. You can pitch them on contract work and offer to augment their teams on a contractual basis while they search for a full-time hire.

MOARDONGZPLZ · 3 years ago
I get about 50 of these cold emails a day. Almost all of them are wanting to provide contracting services to me. Most are just offshore body shops. I could very easily hire contractors for discrete work given my company’s posture on this, much easier than hiring FTEs, but there is so much noise it just all goes to spam. What I wouldn’t give for some trusted source of signal to just take my money, honestly, but a cold outreach is likely not it.
tomrod · 3 years ago
What high-signal channels are you open to?
koevet · 3 years ago
I have been contracting for the last 20 years, never used any platform (Toptal, etc.).

I'm based in Europe and I have mostly worked in EU countries, except for a couple of very lucrative contracts in the Middle East. I can see you are based in London: London has tons of contract gigs, especially in the financial sector (mostly using JVM languages I'm afraid). If you can move around, Switzerland has also lots of contract work at the moment - and low taxes.

Take a look at jobserve.com for UK contracts.

What has worked for me so far:

- Find some good recruiters from reputable hiring agencies. Once you establish a relationship with them, they can provide a stream of constant contract opportunities. You can accept or refuse, based on location, rate, tech stack etc.

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the bar for entering an hiring agency is quite low these days and you get all sort of cowboys. Personally, I prefer to work with older dudes with at least 10 years of experience in the fields (reverse ageism!).

- Never, ever leave a company slamming the door. If you do a good job, they will call you back

- Linkedin lists contract gigs sometime, I have never really got anything out of it, but it's good to keep an eye

- At some point, I wrote a book that landed me a couple of good gigs. I'm not suggesting to write a book, but you can try to establish yourself as an authority is some field (Elixir, Rust, etc). Again, easier said than done

Ultimately, the hiring agencies are the gateways to the majority of contract gigs, so you really want to talk to them.

Good luck!

michaelmior · 3 years ago
> at least 10 years of experience in the fields (reverse ageism!)

I think this is somewhat distinct from ageism. You could find some relatively young folks with that level of experience and folks who are much older with less.

eaenki · 3 years ago
can you name those swiss and uk agencies?
bubblematrix · 3 years ago
There are no good platforms for contract work.

There are two routes: 1) Get in touch with local hiring agencies, there are tons of contract positions 2) Become a studio yourself and take on clients (much harder than #1)

Good luck.

chacho · 3 years ago
I've worked with A Team (www.a.team) for about a year now and I've had an amazing experience with them so far. Really interesting projects, good pay and their team is very supportive with getting you up and running. Can't recommend enough
jcksndjvkdlel · 3 years ago
Clickable link: https://www.a.team/
akvadrako · 3 years ago
It's the best contract site I'm aware of. Last year I had a long-term gig for $150/hour and this year had an offer for $200/hour.
spookthesunset · 3 years ago
Is that as a 1099 or w2?
mmastrac · 3 years ago
I joined a few months back and got matched with a pretty stellar contract shortly after coming onboard. There's a pretty wide variety of work on the platform so you can be as picky as you like (want to work on crypto? or desktop apps? etc).

Jobs seem to be mainly split between full-stack, front-end, and mobile but there's quite a few openings for soft skills like PM work.

ricardobayes · 3 years ago
It says invite-only. Do they invite randoms or do I need to find someone already on there?
akvadrako · 3 years ago
Generally they are pretty quick to send invites when asked.
sph · 3 years ago
I am subscribed to their site, but it's been mostly frontend engineering offers since I signed up in July.
petesergeant · 3 years ago
I got my last (entirely back-end) role with them after I spoke to one of their recruiters on Zoom, and she ended up matching me with a role. Might be worth trying to pursue?