Ask HN: How did you start higher education after 40?

cdicelico · 3 years ago

I went straight to work and didn't get to college until 41/42. I'm working on my undergrad and plan to continue to my masters. I've found it incredibly rewarding for two main reasons.

First, since I have a career already, I'm free of the pressure to go to school for career purposes and can focus on something I enjoy, which also provides immense value to what I'm doing every day (I chose philosophy, much more relevant and practical than I think many realize).

Second, I enjoy the experience and get quite a bit more depth from it than I would have in my 20's. It's a richer, more meaningful experience now that I'm older, have a strong sense of who I am, and am not put off in the slightest by naysayers or influenced by people's opinions of what I should or shouldn't be doing. I have more maturity now than at any other time in my life, and this has served me well in the sense of approaching topics with intellectual humility and just enjoying the process of knowing nothing to knowing a little. I do all the reading and then some, reading far and wide as well as doing deep analysis, writing all my notes, reviewing, and doing practice essays, and I enjoy every bit of it rather than seeing it as a chore.

So, some initial thoughts for you, hope they're helpful. The only advice I can give is to enjoy it, realize it's a wonderful opportunity, be structured and disciplined with your time, and use your hard-earned experience to your advantage.

specproc · 3 years ago

I really second this. The best thing about study as an adult is that you're largely studying for pleasure, even if there is a work goal in there somewhere.

You know what's relevant and interesting to you and what's not.

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devwastaken · 3 years ago

Philosophy is essential, how it's taught is unfortunate. In my philosophy class it was almost all about the history of philosophy, not the reasoning behind it. Assignments and tests were all about time periods, the specific names of philosophical ideas, from whom they came from, etc.

I'd rather have open ended assignments. Ones that give moral dilemmas, and challenge their solutions. Make me think about something In a perspective I haven't thought of before. That's a powerful tool.

But that's how academics works, the culture wants tests and assignments with check boxes.

nathan_compton · 3 years ago

I can't help but come to the defense of the traditional style, particularly for introductory philosophical classes. The fact is, people have thought about every moral situation from every angle already and just asking undergraduates to wax on about the trolley problem is kind of a waste of time. It is much more valuable to get them into the detailed history of ideas so they can appreciate just how long these problems have been open and discussed.

codingdave · 3 years ago

I'm not sure where you went, but my undergrad philosophy courses matched your desired approach:. We were presented with problems, and presented solutions in return. Sure, we had to know the historical context of what solutions other have brought already... but our work was not regurgitation of those ideas, it was reconstruction into new ways to advance the discussions.

capitalsigma · 3 years ago

I have never taken a philosophy class that involved tests or naming philosophical ideas. The work of an academic philosopher is to write papers (like an academic historian or sociologist), so a philosophy degree should focus on writing papers. Often the papers will be analyzing previous philosophical work and attempting to present some novel synthesis of it, either with itself or with some broader context. Neither "giving moral dilemmas" nor "quizzes about history" fit anywhere into that picture.

simonebrunozzi · 3 years ago

> (I chose philosophy, much more relevant and practical than I think many realize).

As others have already asked, could you expand on this? Very interested.

andkon · 3 years ago

I’m a philosophy grad who learned to code a couple years out of school.

Philosophy gives you a set of meta cognitive skills that help everywhere. It teaches you how to think. It shows you what class of problems are soluble, and which are things where we just have to accept tradeoffs. And it’s really focused, in a funny way, on economy: does your argument actually do something? Does this theory offer clarity and bring us closer to truth? If not, well, why are you wasting your breath on it? Philosophy teaches you to see that some avenues are fruitless or just kinda not worth the effort.

Also, non-practically, it shows you the full depth of wonder in the world. Wherever there is capacity for thinking to be done, philosophy says, you can elucidate something important to our human condition.

FarhadG · 3 years ago

Not exclusive to philosophy but a strong emphasis within philosophy is the focus on developing the ability to:

- Intelligently entertain various perspectives

- Effectively imagine "possible worlds" where positions may be held or refuted

- Formalize language and all of its "fuzzy" characteristics into clear positions

- Hypothesize generalizations and abstractions to map across domains

- Think from first principles and explore their logical conclusions in conceptual and foreign territories

These were my big takeaways from philosophy undergrad and I find them increasingly important in my various technical careers.

qorrect · 3 years ago

I hear a lot of non-engineers say this. Talking about formal logic, and how philosophy and math were once the same discipline, how math proofs are akin to philosophical arguments etc.

I don't think this crowd would get much out of it.

ramesh31 · 3 years ago

> As others have already asked, could you expand on this? Very interested.

I started undergrad in my 30s, and also majored philosophy for similar reasons. It really is the most rigorous non-STEM undergrad degree you can get. And for people (like myself) who can’t pass calculus, but are still fairly intelligent, it can easily be parlayed into a more technical graduate program.

capitalsigma · 3 years ago

I was a double major in philosophy and CS in my undergrad. Philosophy was fun, but in hindsight I wish I did math or stats or some other STEM instead. I would say my main takeaway from the philosophy degree was developing a sense of intellectual respect for big, important ideas that I don't personally agree with (various religious thinkers, Marx, Aristotle etc), but it really doesn't compare to the actual nuts-and-bolts abstract reasoning skills you pick up in an abstract algebra course, for example.

I also found that I could consistently get As in humanities courses with ~20-40 hours of work per quarter (the time to write 1-3 papers) once I picked up the skill of "writing like an academic", vs my CS courses which continued to be challenging and require a ton of effort to succeed in up until my graduation. My senior year, for example, I had some core-requirement course about theater -- I attended zero classes and did zero readings until I sat down to write the paper, and I got As with compliments from the professor on how well-written my papers were. YMMV.

rafaelero · 3 years ago

I doubt there is significant transfer between philosophy education and other tasks (like programming). Curiously, the people who should doubt this conclusion (the educated philosophers) are the ones that jump to accept it. Anyways, the literature on this matter is wide enough that our prior should be that there is no transfer and evidence to the contrary must be stated.

letsgo39 · 3 years ago

Can you expand on how you found philosophy practical?

killjoywashere · 3 years ago

My daughter is a philosophy major while most of my family has been STEM for generations (father's an engineer, mother taught college math, grandfather was an engineer). I'm reassured by the requirements for formal logic, and the obvious applications in law, but also at the intersection of law, ethics, and many of the ML systems that I foresee coming online.

She actually brought up this Harvard philosophy professor who had a story about keeping track of parantheses. I took advantage of the opportunity to show her the connections to Curry and from there to Lisp and the Little Schemer. She got it. She can reason, formally. That's important.

AussieWog93 · 3 years ago

Just to offer a counter-point to the others here, I've personally noticed that quite a few people who study philosophy (either formally or via self-study) tend to become "disembodied". Formal reason becomes king, even when informal methods are more appropriate for solving the task at hand, and the intangible becomes irrelevant, even when it matters deeply.

Perhaps things would be different for someone in their 40s, who has a wealth of real world experience to draw on, philosophy would be valuable. But for the average 18 year old kid, studying it seems to create a set of terrible habits that take years to undo before the student can become a properly integrated adult.

inphovore · 3 years ago

I find philosophy is the sauce that goes well on everything.

Sure, you can live on the bland essentials, and you cannot live on toppings alone, yet who doesn’t like a little… sauce with that?

daviddever23box · 3 years ago

The ability to conceptualize and abstract a problem into its component parts is a key skill that will never underserve you.

isthisthingon99 · 3 years ago

Teaches you to think in ways that other courses won't.

sour-taste · 3 years ago

Not me, but my mom went to med school at 60. She didn't get into any US med schools her first time around so she went to a school in the Caribbean. She then transfered to a US med school and from there followed the normal path through med school and residency. She's practicing now.

She said that she did see ageism, mostly in the form of people just assuming that she'd be incompetent (she's not she was in the top 5% or something when she took her board exams). She said she struggled with the memorization aspect: some things are just easier when you're young but if you work hard you can do it. This may or may not apply to you but late nights doing work (in her case being OnCall at a hospital) became very hard for her. Her young classmates had a much easier time. The truth is that school does kind of assume you're young. It's possible to overcome it but it isn't easy.

Fwiw my mom is the happiest she's ever been and said she would do it all again.

strikelaserclaw · 3 years ago

jeez, people like your mom are so inspirational. Most people after a certain age assume that they can't learn hard new things again.

sour-taste · 3 years ago

Thanks for the kind words, we're proud of her too. I totally understand why people feel that way, it is hard but not impossible.

account-5 · 3 years ago

I'm finishing up a Comp Science degree, distance learning. Didn't do well at school, due to severe undiagnosed dyslexia, so went into the military as a boy soldier.

After being diagnosed (32) I was told I could have gone to university had it been diagnosed at school. So when I had a secure enough job with enough money to try I did.

My experience of starting this later in life is that you are more focused, patient with yourself, and dedicated. It's been hard working a full time job, with kids, and other commitments but has been worth it for me.

My imposter syndrome has decreased, as my confidence in my abilities has increased.

I will finish it soon but now realise, for me personally, academia is not for me. I like practical useful stuff and with a few exceptions most of these academic courses aren't useful.

readingnews · 3 years ago

There are a lot of comments in here, but I will throw mine in.

I did the B.S. and M.S. before I was 40, but went back later to do the Ph.D. in my 40s.

I did not have family support. My SO was totally against this. As an engineer, sysadmin, physicist, I feel like I have a problem solving mindset. It took a lot of problem solving and ignoring to get over the problem of no family support (I do not mean financial, I mean "hey, don't go do that, its a waste of time, what is it for, you are too old, etc, etc". Find out early on if people around you support this, and what mindset you will have if they do not.

Financial. Can you afford this? You figure it out.

Academic... As I have worked at three universities, I feel like this is probably the biggest advice or question I would ask: Are you of the academic / research mindset? I am assuming you are going into a tech / STEM field and not philosophy or the arts, so this can make or break you. Some people are 4.0 students and suck miserably at research. Some people can teach well, and do not do research well. Some people do research well and can not teach. This brings about two questions:

1) What is your goal after the Ph.D.? 2) Are you good at research? Most Ph.D. programs are going to have you do a pretty significant breadth of research to graduate.

My advice: What is your main objective? Does that coincide with getting a Ph.D.? Are you good at research? Do you have support for this (if you have a SO / Family / Partner), as that can make it doubly tough.

Finally, when you figure our your main objective be SURE your advisor KNOWS what you want as your goal. Most of them either think "you are going to finish and teach" or "you are going to finish and do research" or "you are going to finish and go get a job". The courses you take, and the amounts of research/papers/teaching you do will impact which path you take. Do not that that for granted. Tell your advisor "my goal is X". Remind them of this from time to time, as they will forget. You do not want to end up graduating, looking your advisor in the eye as they are telling you they have a job lined up for you and saying "but I really just want to go be a professor at a university" (which is what happened to me, and frankly, I am not a professor, I am a staff person that teaches when we are short professors, but I can not get a teaching job, as I have too few papers written).

Hope that helps some.

iainctduncan · 3 years ago

last paragraph is right on the money. Super important

stagger87 · 3 years ago

I started an MS in applied math in my very late 30s only having a BS in CS. I did it one class at a time, and it was relatively easy to juggle with work and family. At the time, I was looking at a lot of jobs that required an MS, which was the original motivation for starting it. I ended up not needing it in that way, but it has still been instrumental in my career and I don't regret it.

I paid out of pocket and it has financially been worth it. A lot of companies will pay for it, but I wasn't in that position. If a company pays for it they might want you to agree to work for them several years after you finish.

If you don't love learning and being in school, it's going to be a long unenjoyable slog. If you're only doing it for money or vanity, that may not be enough to carry you through the hundreds to thousands of hours of study and homework you will have to do.

You will encounter a lot of naysayers, as you have already seen in this thread. This includes family and friends.

You will also get better advice in a different forum. A sub reddit dedicated to your industry for instance?

maCDzP · 3 years ago

I am 34 years old and thinking about doing the same. I have an degree in civil engineering but the last couple of years I have a big interest in CS and math.

If you wouldn’t mind - could you elaborate how it was instrumental in your career and how long it took?

stagger87 · 3 years ago

As far as being instrumental, it's the usual suspects. Better role, salary, respect, job satisfaction, confidence, etc. It doesn't happen overnight, you still have to consistently perform. It's also what you make of it. If you get a degree that you never use and no one knows about, your life might not change much. I personally used my degree to help me tackle more challenging projects and work towards being an authority in my field. I found success in that, not everyone does.

It took about 3 years to complete the degree.

brailsafe · 3 years ago

I like this approach, but find it hard to deal with the somewhat inefficient tuition fees that you get doing one course at a time, at the school I've been to. The one course ends up costing quite a lot

coldcode · 3 years ago

I wanted to get a PhD in CS at 40 but was convinced by a local professor of CS that it was a waste of everyone's time and there were no jobs to be had in the academic world anyway. Shortly thereafter Google started hiring them by the truckload. I wish I had ignored him.

I did have a 4 decade career as a programmer, but who knows what might have happened if I had taken the time mid-career to do the doctorate.

beezlebroxxxxxx · 3 years ago

Ironically, CS professors and teachers are, from last I heard, in extremely high demand now because so many CS PhD grads leave for industry (and 3 or 5x the pay of academics). I don't think that was just as adjuncts either. Some universities are willing to pay way more than adjunct salaries to get CS grads with real teaching ability. I doubt you'll ever see industry competitive salaries though.

manholio · 3 years ago

This economic opportunity is only true for PhDs in CS or engineering and even there, only for hot research areas. Good luck getting 5x academic pay with a PhD in geology.

Generally speaking, the professor's advice from 25 years ago is still solid: don't get a PhD unless you are interested in an academic career, research, teaching etc. Due to the prestige of such a career, it tends to have an oversupply of applicants - the majority of which will not get a commensurate payback for the efforts required by a proper PhD thesis. So they will either flunk / present a low effort thesis, or worse still, they will invest a few years into a good thesis but never develop their career and skills gained into a full academic job.

So getting a PhD for the sake of it might not be a good investment of your time and effort career-wise; If you want to do it for the intelectual challenge on a topic you are very interested in, that's always a suficient motivation.

dominotw · 3 years ago

> Shortly thereafter Google started hiring them by the truckload. I wish I had ignored him.

Google hires people without PHD by truckloads too, if anything they hire more ppl without phds.

jeffbee · 3 years ago

And the people with PhDs are just as likely as the rest of them to be writing code that moves protobufs from one place to another.

iainctduncan · 3 years ago

My advice (I am doing this now) pick your profs carefully and talk to them about your situation. Some will love having you, and will completely understand that you are not in the same place as other students. Make sure the directors and supervisors of your program are happy to have you and know why you are there.

Some profs (usually younger!) have this attitude that if you come back to school you should be prepared to live just like the other students. They can have a bad attitude to you out of the gate, especially if you are financially more successful than them and have to occasionally make other things a higher priority. Unfortunately insecurity can be found anywhere. These people can be a real pain in the ass as a mature student and are best avoided.

So whatever you do, make damn sure your supervisor(s) want mature students! I am fortunate that mine are great - they love having me, and we've had frank conversations about how I will hand in A+ material every time, but sometimes I have adult responsibilities I have to deal with instead of making a class.

It's really nice not to be beholden to anyone else's funding. I pick my topics, I pick my thesis, I don't owe anyone anything there.

The_Adger · 3 years ago

Depends on the country you're in. I'm in my early 50s and in Germany where attending university is not as costly as elsewhere. Having a degree can help your career but it's no guarantee. The by far most challenging part for me was coming to terms with myself. Do you really want to do it or not? "Maybee" is no sufficient answer. If your answer is "Yes!" ask yourself "Why?" Don't stop short of an answer that satisfies your best and most sceptical friend. This took me a lot of talking and time but it paid off in the long run whenever motivation became an issue (motivation will wear thin at some point.) After that I went to the university of my choice and talked with the office dedicated to "older and long term students". This was tremendeously helpful in many ways. Most importantly during this meeting I learned that I could shave two semesters and various "required" courses from the BA curriculum. And it allowed me to skip the numerus clausus because of previous job experience. I'm currently applying the finishing touches to my MA and am offered (without me asking for) to do my PhD afterward by two different professors, which to my knowledge is a first in my university, so yeah, I certainly have done some things right. Looking back it was quite a ride. I learned tons and became very good friends with amazingly brilliant people. My life has changed in so many ways. Some of the people who used to be part of my life before university have parted ways because I changed on the inside. I spent endless hours reading stuff that still does not interest me. Not even remotely. I've written pages on end about stuff that I couldn't care less about. All of this because others told me I had to do it. In doing so I grew and I really like what I have become: More knowledgable, understanding and critically thinking. Come on in! The water is fine! But don't do it for the merits. Do it because you really want to.