Going to tread lightly here, but here is the section on 4 "facts" about long COVID:
> In this note, I use two survey datasets to document four facts about long COVID in the United States. First, long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups. Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting. Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic. Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
I'm generally interested in a good summary of what medical research tells us about long COVID. Reason being I think it's fair to hypothesize that the following facts are at least fair confounding factors:
1. Whenever economic situations become weaker, disability rates rise. This is largely because people who are "on the cusp" may find it worth it to find a job in good times, but in bad times find it's not worth it to "push through" their disability.
2. There has been so much news coverage about long COVID that it's difficult for me to tell how it compares to other long term viral syndromes. E.g. infection with Epstein Barr virus has long been implicated in a lost of long term conditions like CFS and MS. Is long COVID more common in COVID sufferers than these other syndromes are in EB infection?
3. There have been huge societal changes that have occurred in the past couple years that can make it difficult to tease out the effects of COVID alone.
Not trying to discount any individual suffering from long COVID symptoms, but I think caution is warranted when trying to ascertain the effects at a society-wide level, especially when all the data for this article appears to come from self-reports.
Or, if one thinks it’s plausible, each can be read the other way, for instance:
>> long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups
OK, so groups least likely to choose to isolate, or be able to isolate (because they have to work).
>> Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting.
Put another way, reporting and media sound like what people cite.
>> Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic.
Condition attributed to a disease known to be experienced by a steadily increasing population share, steadily increases share reporting — confirmed!
>> Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
So these go together, and see #1 — everything is as expected.
Remarkable how simultaneously contradictory all four interpretations can be, almost as if crafted to be so.
To emphasize, though, and the point I was trying to make is that it's possible (and I think likely) that both of these statements are true:
1. Long COVID is a real disease that can cause debilitating symptoms.
2. A significant number of people who claim to suffer from Long COVID actually suffer from something else.
The only thing that puts me more in the "I think #2 is a lot more prevalent than people think" camp is the astronomical amount of press that "Long COVID" has received, coupled with the fact that the majority of people in the US have been exposed to COVID, so it's easy to attribute any general feeling of being unwell (e.g. fatigue, brain fog, etc.) to the fact that you probably had COVID in the not-too-distant past.
COVID is definitely not the only case where acute form might shift into a chronic one. For a recent overview see, e.g., Unexplained post-acute infection syndromes[0].
> As of now, the true extent of PAISs remains uncertain, as there is a significant risk that a lot of cases, especially under sporadic circumstances, remain unrecognized.
> The research that is available concentrates on PAISs in the context of either well-monitored acute infectious diseases, or as a follow-up of outbreaks and epidemics.
> E.g. infection with Epstein Barr virus has long been implicated in a lost of long term conditions like CFS and MS.
Sorry for the complete non sequitur, but this is the first time I've seen a reference to Epstein-Barr outside of the Sopranos (Tony's sister Janice is on disability because of it). I had no idea it was linked to MS.
Derek Lowe did a nice write up of a serious study that found 189 long Covid cases and 120 controls. PCR positive and having long term Covid symptoms was the inclusion criteria.
They then did a massive battery of tests - inflammation biomarkers, nerve damage biomarkers, lung function, congestive ability, etc.
And the conclusion? There was no difference between the groups: there are no diagnostic findings that would allow you to even say for sure that post-Covid even exists, biochemically.
That just means there's no diagnostic test, not that the symptoms aren't real! There aren't biomarkers for chronic pain, either, which presents a serious problem for people seeking treatment.
This is the "I closed your bug report because it works on my machine" of medicine.
As a software engineer I have a wide variety of tests to my disposal. Still, there are things which I would not be able to test for. EM interference between chips in a data center. Row-hammer attacks. Clock jitter. My running processes would fail, but there is no way for me to prove a specific cause.
If you are truly interested do more research focusing on clotting/microclotting. Dr Gustavo Aguirre is a true pioneer, his protocols (and others' protocols) which are based on that truly work, I manage a long covid group with 6K people.
You might want to start with some of the original articles on post-viral fatigue syndrome going back to the 1980's. I suspect there's not much really new with long COVID.
And I want to add that side effects of the vaccination are often treated as long COVID as well. Long COVID is a representation of symptoms, therefore this is not unusual that it is classified the same, however one might mistake these as virus related when some are not.
Been into the topic since the earliest days of long covid, Apr 2020.
If you have issues make sure you have dealt with possible microclotting issues, it is the main thing everyone must check/treat who had covid.
As others mentioned in thread, check FLCCC's IRecover protocol and also study antifibrinogens and Gustavo Aguirre's work. He was months before anyone else from the start regarding both covid and post covid treatment.
I myself manage a hungarian long covid group with almost 6K people now, started 1.5 years ago. Curating resources, translating studies, gathering good docs and protocols.
List of treatments to have a look at: lysine (2000-2500mg, slowly increasing not to break microclots too fast), lumbrokinase/nattokinase/serrapeptase/bromelain, high dose B1 (even 2000-3000mg HCl form), in case of brain fog you might consider fluvoxamine, and of course there is the one which helped A LOT of long haulers I know but is censored...: www.ivmmeta.com
Also diet/antihistamines might help for some and in case of low energy (if microclots are surely gone, if not I'd focus on it first) then high dose flush niacin. Proved many times.
It is so absurd they can still censor it and that many docs blindly following orders.
Anecdote, had covid in the end of 2020, still dont feel 100%, maybe i just grew old while sick and thats just life, but i feel like shit comparable to what i felt before it.
I have had health complications that caused the same problem as long covid seemingly causes; tiny tiny clots wreaking havoc on capillaries. I think it depends on where the viral load landed and grew, but if it was in your lungs, you would maybe need to treat it as if you have chronic bronchitis.
If it was in your sinuses and mouth, messing up your senses, then I'm sorry, idk what to do. ...maybe a similar approach with anti-inflammatories, hopefully something for your nerves too.
Yeah, had literally 100s of lab tests, all came back ok. Exercise intolerance for at least an year. But im slowly getting back on form, gym doesnt kill me anymore. Still have some random digestion issues, slightly elevated HR and just generally feeling worse than before. But ill look into lung exercises, thank you for the tip
How much did you self isolate? I’ve noticed that the elderly who self isolated while having it or being around partners who had it have gone through a marketed mental decline. I think physical declines are probably there as well especially as we all age it is difficult to turn back the clock in physical fitness, past 35 more so.
This is me also. I was also isolated seeing only one other human for the entirety of COVID (including now, but I'm gonna move soon so I can at least go into a physical office). I feel like my brain still works at lots of stuff, once it gets going, but I forget what I'm doing randomly and I think I used to be not _THIS_ bad at interacting with other humans :/
It's not just you. I know someone who had Long COVID for 1 month. I also know someone who works with someone who was running marathons every weekend and now they can't walk stairs because of knee pain, all because of COVID. I know someone else who had COVID and then was not doing any sport or social interaction for almost two years, barely left the house and who feels much more tired and depressed now, because of COVID. I know a child, who had COVID, then didn't have proper education for nearly two years and now is really underdeveloped, because of COVID of course.
Yeah, I'm definitely not where I was before. Dunno if it's the effects of covid, but social isolation and lack of physical exercise certainly hasn't done my overall well-being any favors either.
That's abstractly true, but in this case we also have studies that show long COVID, including one that compared brain scans before and after COVID and could see macro brain damage. The brain is an incredibly delicate organ, it isn't surprising that a severe virus can do damage do it.
Funny, I was just searching if the temperature dysregulation - randomly sweating and feeling hot or cold without a change in body temperature - might have anything to do with my covid infection two months ago (the answer seems to be: maybe, who knows!).
FYI, temperature dysregulation can be a common sign of hormonal balance issues (thyroid, etc could be a factor), so if it's causing you a lot of trouble you should see if your doctor can check the levels of key hormones. IIRC testosterone and estrogen are two key ones that can be out of whack for various reasons and will cause temperature dysregulation. The test is pretty cheap and easy to do with a regular blood draw so it shouldn't be too hard to get it done if they haven't already checked it before.
Thermogenesis is controlled by the autonomic nervous system (ANS), dysfunction of the ANS is called dysautonomia and it is a central component to Long Covid. There are a variety of medical interventions that are helpful for dysautonomia.
The light searching I've been doing since my last comment had indeed been leading me in that direction. I even came across a mention of this here on HN from a few months ago[1]. A sibling comment to yours also suggested a hormonal imbalance as a possible cause which can't hurt getting myself checked for.
Some anacdata: This strange temperature dysregulation feels somewhat similar to what a too high dosage of my ADHD meds does to me.
Anyway thanks for your comment. I'll be seeing a doctor about this for sure.
It's mentioned in most official resources that I've come across as a potential "long-covid" symptom, but I don't recall ever having seen it listed as one of the researched criteria - those seem mostly limited to just the (I suppose much more prevalent) cognitive impairments and exhaustion as in the linked article also.
It's definitely a symptom of COVID. I know someone who had COVID and one day they coughed suddenly, dropped their iPhone on the floor and since then even the iPhone's temperature sensor doesn't work anymore. This is how infectious and terrible COVID is, just one cough caused the loss of temperature sensation!
Another anecdote. I also experienced a long tail of symptoms - randomly getting tired, cough inability to write coherent paragraphs after getting COVID.
I found that exercising - starting with 10 min yoga / stretching and then slowly ramping up over 1-2 weeks - got me back to normal.
My experience is very similar to yours. COVID let me feeling very negative but build up to doing a good deal of cardio every day seem to have fixed it.
Thank you for the info and I'm glad that it gets better for you. I had stopped going to the gym because I wanted to rest and because of summer but I will definitely start it again (mainly low impact resistance training) in the following days and see how it works for me!
Funny, had the same happen to me. Thought maybe it was a coincidence, but getting back into my cardio routine eliminated the lingering fatigue I had after Covid, too.
My brother's heart and lung health suffered extensively after his second bout with COVID. O2 uptake is somewhat diminished, and resting heart rate is still very high. Walking up two flights of stairs requires a 5 to 10 minute sit down as he is completely winded by the time he gets to the top.
If any of that sounds familiar, you may want to get some more extensive tests done. I don't know what will come of it, pretty much the only thing that has helped my brother so far is a regular low dose of Benadryl. There's a bit of edgy research or internet driven anecdata (not sure which) that led him to try it, but it is better than nothing, at least.
My symptoms are definitely not that significant. My O2 is > 98% (and never fell below even when I had the covid) and I can easily ascend stairs. I only feel that I am more tired than before the covid.
Additional anecdata: This is similar to what happened to me. I got covid earlier this year and had it bad for a week, had stuffiness and a possible sinus infection for a few weeks, and was tired all the time for a few weeks after that. The coughing lingered for a while too. Eventually I got back to normal just waiting it out (disclaimer: this is not a recommendation).
My doc said i was fine too after having covid twice in 9 weeks.
I am still getting winded easily and while i was already out of shape i notice after riding a bike or being active for a full day i still feel bad the following day
Some avenues to consider/investigate (consult with your doctor before trying any treatment, but expect to hear "there's no reason to believe that will work" in many cases):
"Could tiny blood clots cause Long COVID's puzzling symptoms?" (article reports some people have had success with anti-coagulant therapies, but be especially careful with those): https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02286-7
From personal anecdata, I took a PQQ/CoQ10/NAC combo supplement recommended by the local supplements store after both of my two infections, and have never had any long-term symptoms. NAC in particular seems to show up often in the various recovery protocols that are floating around.
Also add, that breaking microclots is the main goal not necessarily with anti-coagulants, they are similar but not the same. Anti fibrinogens are more useful in that post covid phase and it has been shown that live virus DOES live in those microclots so that's why antivirals (eg lysine, shown to bind to spike protein and also wide spectrum antiviral) to be used together with them.
Check out dr Gustavo Aguirre's work, he was months early every time.
>long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups.
ME/CFS is known to impact 2 women to every 1 man and auto immune conditions tend to follow that pattern due to the differences between men and women when it comes to immune response. As to the social economic factors its probably an ability to isolate from catching the virus, "key workers" were forced to catch it whereas college graduates will have had the ability to work from home and avoid it, many still are and certainly after vaccinations unlike manual workers.
Yeah, part of the consensus as far as I know is that the best way to avoid long covid is to basically be a absolute couch potato for a month post infection. which of course, you can't do if you have to back to a physical job as soon as soon as possible.
Readit News
> In this note, I use two survey datasets to document four facts about long COVID in the United States. First, long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups. Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting. Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic. Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
I'm generally interested in a good summary of what medical research tells us about long COVID. Reason being I think it's fair to hypothesize that the following facts are at least fair confounding factors:
1. Whenever economic situations become weaker, disability rates rise. This is largely because people who are "on the cusp" may find it worth it to find a job in good times, but in bad times find it's not worth it to "push through" their disability.
2. There has been so much news coverage about long COVID that it's difficult for me to tell how it compares to other long term viral syndromes. E.g. infection with Epstein Barr virus has long been implicated in a lost of long term conditions like CFS and MS. Is long COVID more common in COVID sufferers than these other syndromes are in EB infection?
3. There have been huge societal changes that have occurred in the past couple years that can make it difficult to tease out the effects of COVID alone.
Not trying to discount any individual suffering from long COVID symptoms, but I think caution is warranted when trying to ascertain the effects at a society-wide level, especially when all the data for this article appears to come from self-reports.
If one thinks “long COVID” is imaginary, one can read these facts as confirmation of placebo effects or mass sociogenic illness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness
Or, if one thinks it’s plausible, each can be read the other way, for instance:
>> long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups
OK, so groups least likely to choose to isolate, or be able to isolate (because they have to work).
>> Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting.
Put another way, reporting and media sound like what people cite.
>> Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic.
Condition attributed to a disease known to be experienced by a steadily increasing population share, steadily increases share reporting — confirmed!
>> Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
So these go together, and see #1 — everything is as expected.
Remarkable how simultaneously contradictory all four interpretations can be, almost as if crafted to be so.
1. Long COVID is a real disease that can cause debilitating symptoms.
2. A significant number of people who claim to suffer from Long COVID actually suffer from something else.
The only thing that puts me more in the "I think #2 is a lot more prevalent than people think" camp is the astronomical amount of press that "Long COVID" has received, coupled with the fact that the majority of people in the US have been exposed to COVID, so it's easy to attribute any general feeling of being unwell (e.g. fatigue, brain fog, etc.) to the fact that you probably had COVID in the not-too-distant past.
> As of now, the true extent of PAISs remains uncertain, as there is a significant risk that a lot of cases, especially under sporadic circumstances, remain unrecognized.
> The research that is available concentrates on PAISs in the context of either well-monitored acute infectious diseases, or as a follow-up of outbreaks and epidemics.
[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01810-6
Sorry for the complete non sequitur, but this is the first time I've seen a reference to Epstein-Barr outside of the Sopranos (Tony's sister Janice is on disability because of it). I had no idea it was linked to MS.
They then did a massive battery of tests - inflammation biomarkers, nerve damage biomarkers, lung function, congestive ability, etc.
And the conclusion? There was no difference between the groups: there are no diagnostic findings that would allow you to even say for sure that post-Covid even exists, biochemically.
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/search-long-covid
This is the "I closed your bug report because it works on my machine" of medicine.
So we search deeper. And sometimes we find something: https://mylongcoviddiaries.medium.com/i-finally-have-a-diagn...
Has there been any good summaries?
https://doi.org/10.1177/014107688808100608
Unfortunately both long covid and vaccine side effects are underplayed.
If you have issues make sure you have dealt with possible microclotting issues, it is the main thing everyone must check/treat who had covid.
As others mentioned in thread, check FLCCC's IRecover protocol and also study antifibrinogens and Gustavo Aguirre's work. He was months before anyone else from the start regarding both covid and post covid treatment.
I myself manage a hungarian long covid group with almost 6K people now, started 1.5 years ago. Curating resources, translating studies, gathering good docs and protocols.
List of treatments to have a look at: lysine (2000-2500mg, slowly increasing not to break microclots too fast), lumbrokinase/nattokinase/serrapeptase/bromelain, high dose B1 (even 2000-3000mg HCl form), in case of brain fog you might consider fluvoxamine, and of course there is the one which helped A LOT of long haulers I know but is censored...: www.ivmmeta.com Also diet/antihistamines might help for some and in case of low energy (if microclots are surely gone, if not I'd focus on it first) then high dose flush niacin. Proved many times.
It is so absurd they can still censor it and that many docs blindly following orders.
- Robin Sharma
I have had health complications that caused the same problem as long covid seemingly causes; tiny tiny clots wreaking havoc on capillaries. I think it depends on where the viral load landed and grew, but if it was in your lungs, you would maybe need to treat it as if you have chronic bronchitis.
If it was in your sinuses and mouth, messing up your senses, then I'm sorry, idk what to do. ...maybe a similar approach with anti-inflammatories, hopefully something for your nerves too.
Hope you're good atm
Deleted Comment
https://www.cdc.gov/aging/publications/features/lonely-older...
Humans are social animals. COVID response policy to encourage more physical isolation could have deadly implications.
Anecdotes are really not useful for teasing out general effects.
Luckily he's one to take it well when his patients bring up internet-sourced thoughts or suggestions :)
Some anacdata: This strange temperature dysregulation feels somewhat similar to what a too high dosage of my ADHD meds does to me.
Anyway thanks for your comment. I'll be seeing a doctor about this for sure.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31512100
Dead Comment
After I felt better I observed that I was feeling much more tired than I usually felt.
Now, after two months I feel a little better but not that much... Could this be related to my covid infection? Is there a way to improve my situation?
I did a normal check up but didn't get anything abnormal...
In a tweet, here’s the start of a trail of very good information from solid research into these conditions: https://twitter.com/putrinolab/status/1557403364941496320
I found that exercising - starting with 10 min yoga / stretching and then slowly ramping up over 1-2 weeks - got me back to normal.
If any of that sounds familiar, you may want to get some more extensive tests done. I don't know what will come of it, pretty much the only thing that has helped my brother so far is a regular low dose of Benadryl. There's a bit of edgy research or internet driven anecdata (not sure which) that led him to try it, but it is better than nothing, at least.
That supposedly can cause dementia. Just FYI.
I am still getting winded easily and while i was already out of shape i notice after riding a bike or being active for a full day i still feel bad the following day
FLCCC I-RECOVER protocol: https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-recover...
"Could tiny blood clots cause Long COVID's puzzling symptoms?" (article reports some people have had success with anti-coagulant therapies, but be especially careful with those): https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02286-7
Theory of Long COVID as Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (from one of the physicians who pioneered use of fluvoxamine in treatment): https://twitter.com/farid__jalali/status/1315060197988036608
From personal anecdata, I took a PQQ/CoQ10/NAC combo supplement recommended by the local supplements store after both of my two infections, and have never had any long-term symptoms. NAC in particular seems to show up often in the various recovery protocols that are floating around.
Also add, that breaking microclots is the main goal not necessarily with anti-coagulants, they are similar but not the same. Anti fibrinogens are more useful in that post covid phase and it has been shown that live virus DOES live in those microclots so that's why antivirals (eg lysine, shown to bind to spike protein and also wide spectrum antiviral) to be used together with them.
Check out dr Gustavo Aguirre's work, he was months early every time.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344325326_COVID-19_...
Dead Comment
Weird