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Posted by u/afrederico 3 years ago
Ask HN: Games which will help increase my appetite for risk?
I'm very risk averse IRL and am prone to "turtle" or "hoard" what I have. This mindset does NOT help me with my investments where a certain tolerance for risk is necessary to get reward.

Are there any games (video, not board) that can help me flex my risk tolerance muscle so I'm able to be less "scared" in reality and less risk averse?

Some thoughts on requirements:

- Immediate feedback through a failure state: don't want to spend 90% of the game building and 10% of the time risking what I've built - Less about game proficiency/mechanics and more about provoking an emotional response which I can then confront and work through - Would prefer a controlled, PvE environment so I can remove the variables of exploiters and better players from the equation (though this would be something useful to jolt a plateaued learning curve) - Something that can be done without a sophisticated setup

Here are some games I've thought of and why they won't work (although I may be approaching them wrong):

- Humankind, Civ 6, etc. - Risk occurs late in the game - Feedback isn't immediate and would require analysis - Large amount of build-up - FPS - Requires technical and game proficiency - MMO FPS (Valorant, Overwatch) - Too many uncontrolled variables - Builders, i.e. Rimworld, Factorio, Anno 1800, etc. - More micro-manage-y than risky - Excessive setup before actual risk is faced - Feedback would only occur after analysis

I don't know what I don't know so any ideas/comments are greatly appreciated!

This is an article I found but it's board games: [https://www.creativelive.com/blog/take-more-risks-board-games/](https://www.creativelive.com/blog/take-more-risks-board-games/)

remflight · 3 years ago
Poker with real money. Playing poker with fake money is utterly worthless. There needs to be real money behind your decision making but I promise it is eye opening.

Learning how to play poker is one of the most important skills you can learn in life. It teaches you so many things about life: how to make decisions based on incomplete information and being okay with unfavorable outcomes; knowing how to control your risk and knowing when to push more when the odds are in your favor; learning how to take a bunch of small losses vs less frequent but much larger wins, etc.

Poker really changed my perspective on life and risk management. Being able to fold your hand 80% of the time and seeing those hands going on to win a huge pot, but telling yourself you did the right move because there’s no way you would have known beforehand, is an extremely valuable life skill.

daviross · 3 years ago
"being okay with unfavorable outcomes; knowing how to control your risk"

Isn't the winning move not playing, then? I've never seen the appeal. If I lose, I feel the loss of money; but if I win, that's not enjoyable in the same way losing that equivalent would be displeasing.

And either I'm playing with friends, in which case there's no joy in depriving someone else (if I win); or I'm playing with strangers, in which case why would I care about what's going on at the table?

muzani · 3 years ago
I've always paid poker with fake money and it does the trick too. I've had friends cry over losing lots of Zynga poker money. Losing 10 hours worth of gains in one game hurts.
GnomeSaiyan · 3 years ago
Sounds like they didn't learn bankroll management.
kregasaurusrex · 3 years ago
+1 Online poker was very popular in the late 00's/early 10's (Omaha hasn't had AI dominated play - yet.) where people would self-publish and distribute their tips & tricks to new players if you bought their DVD & PDF set. Decisions made at every stage impact how other players interpret and play the game, and forces you to quickly learn situational awareness in order to best adapt in a changing environment. You could start out with memorizing the starting hand probabilities, read what the strongest 5-card combo on the board could be, and then aspire towards playing GTO to maximize the number of hands won. Even though you'd only be playing with a few dollars, the human element of stubbornness kicks in when having to top up your chips after losing a big hand, and that reward mechanism "spins the same gears" in your brain as the endgame in an RTS video game does. Not to mention the boost it gives to real-life skills of dealing with imperfect information events.
Buttons840 · 3 years ago
In a similar vein, I'm scared of losing the game, my rating, and my ego (how could I possibly lose?) every time I queue up a chess game.
r_hoods_ghost · 3 years ago
Racing games like Asseto Corsa or Automobilista paired with a VR headset and a decent wheel and set of pedals. Learning to race in VR will give you very immediate and visceral feedback about what risks are worth taking. Realistically though, if you want to train yourself to be more risk tolerant you need to take some actual risks in the real world. Try bouldering, abseiling, boxing, anything that makes you uncomfortable like talking to strangers, going to social events on your own if you're shy etc.
dusted · 3 years ago
I'm speculating that risk aversion is a pretty basic trait, and linked to your sensitivity to certain brain chemistry.

I have a low sensitivity to adrenaline, I need extreme stimuli to feel a "rush" in my stomach.. But like anyone, a good adrenaline rush once in a while is great.. Someone might get that from playing a computer game or watching a horror movie.. or trading stock.. I need to drive a race bike around a track at high speed, or downhill mountainbike or bungee jump or parachute.. When I get back from such a thing, I'm so happy, because I felt "that thing", and then I start reflecting on the risk.. "I'm not doing that again, it went ok this time but what about the next.." months later, I'm planning to do it again, because I do need to feel sometimes sometime.

I'm jealous of people who can get this from watching a horror movie, luxury to have it available, safe in your living room, as much as you want..

You might engage in some risk taking more often to desensitize yourself, even if low risk, but real risk, and it should be risk you actually take, not just simulate.. Just be aware that it's not damaging you too much. I'd not recommend gambling (or stock), because it could devastate you financially.

The real risk of computer games (which I do love) is bad health and obesity.. I don't believe you can become less risk-averse by doing entirely risk-free activities.

Try something like skiing/snowboarding/mountainbiking. These are still relatively safe activities, you have good control over the amount of risk on a per-second basis. Do it often, push your limits.

cptcobalt · 3 years ago
> and linked to your sensitivity to certain brain chemistry.

Yeah, I align with this—I've probably spent a lifetime tuning myself for this.

I present to execs at work frequently and own too many projects for my own good. Peers have asked how I handle the stress..and I don't think I explicitly see or feel it as "stress". I think it's actually that I chase the high of the risk/reward response, and I'm willing to feel the pressure of the "risk" to see something through to the reward.

My second favorite game genre is the management/builder/strategy genre — it's just second because there's not enough of them. I've been playing them all my life, from Civ II on my first PC as a kid, and onward. I think they've kinda trained me for this. These games now feel like a walk in the park, even if I take a weird risk and lose—but as a kid the losses were crushing.

Strategy/4X/Builder/Management games feel like a bit of the same feedback loop, just different nouns and verbs from the day-to-day.

ctchocula · 3 years ago
If it is a basic trait as you point out, I would suggest OP should look into a financial advisor. I don't recommend advisors to everyone, because it is more expensive than DIY portfolios, but having a financial advisor sounds like a good abstraction layer for OP. OP can just tell the advisor financial goals they'd like to reach and the advisor will come up with a portfolio with the appropriate amount of risk to reach those goals.

Given the timing of the post is in a period of economic uncertainty, it could be relevant to point out financial advisors are also good at persuading investors not to make big investment mistakes such as selling when the stock market is down.

aplummer · 3 years ago
Try Starcraft 2. Games are under 20 minutes and you need to fully commit aggressively to win a lot. Constant attack / harassment / probing or risky expansions(or both).

As well, you can watch the replay to see all the times attacking sooner would have won it.

gaetgu · 3 years ago
Another +1 for SC2. This game is great in and of itself, but it also punishes camping. If you camp you will be destroyed, so you have to build an army and fight. Games are pretty short (~20min) so there is a pretty quick feedback loop as well
synicalx · 3 years ago
+1 for SC2, this game really punishes turtling especially when played online. Brood War is great as well but the dated visuals and difficulty involved in managing large numbers of units makes it a bit less friendly.
dcx · 3 years ago
This isn't a video game but it absolutely did the trick for me. Find a theme park with a lot of particularly scary rides, or a holiday town with a lot of "extreme" activities (bungee jumping, etc.). Precommit to doing every single one of them, ideally with a bunch of friends to hold you to your word. And then do them. Don't allow yourself any excuses, especially for the scariest ones.

These kinds of activities are designed to be scary to your monkey / lizard brain, but also to give a consistent payoff in fun and social bonding. I did this for about a week for a buck's trip, and something clicked in my brain associating fear and reward. It lasted for years afterwards; it's been over a decade and I can still feel a shadow of it now. And as you're hoping, the benefits carried over into my professional life.

It makes me think that painful, risky male bonding rituals are almost definitely a feature, not a bug. They turn up in almost all cultures afaik (bullet ant gloves, anyone?). And being able to overcome irrational primate fear is good for everyone including you.

thesuperbigfrog · 3 years ago
XCOM and XCOM2 in Ironman mode (only one autosaved game--all choices are permanent) are excellent choices to learn how to deal with risk.

Gameplay is turn-based so you can plan what you want to do calmly, but results are fairly immediate--if you miscalculate a move your soldiers get hurt or die.

You have to take risks: you must move your team of soldiers ahead into the darkness to accomplish a mission, but there could be aliens around the corner waiting to ambush them.

You can take a risk and have a soldier move ahead to grab some loot (meld) which can grant huge bonuses, but it could expose them to danger. You must decide what they will do.

muzani · 3 years ago
Both are vastly different games though. XCOM allows you to completely turtle though EW expansion countered that. XCOM 2 seems to overly punish safe play and reward aggression.

The downside of the XCOM games is you can lose a whole game on a 80% roll, so it might not condition you properly. The game snowballs, so if you get far enough without losing someone, or lose someone too early, you've basically lost Ironman but it doesn't inform you when.

Battle Brothers is of the genre, with similar flaws. Basically the whole "you lose on day 110 because you didn't knife enough mercenaries on day 31".

Xenonauts I think strikes a good balance. You can lose almost everyone and still continue the game. It's more strategic and less tactical, meaning that if you write the correct SOPs and use sufficient explosives, you should win.

XCOM feels a bit like chess sometimes, in that you lose because you didn't examine the map properly or positioned your sniper too far back.

ed_voc · 3 years ago
If you want to learn about risk, modern XCOM is a bad choice. Modern XCOM lies to the player in order to make the player feel better

It gives a distorted view on how likely 60% really is since the percentage shown is not the same as the one used to calculate the hit or miss.

The game secretly changes the odds for sequential misses making hits more likely after misses. This teaches the player that the gambler's fallacy is not a fallacy at all.

tomjakubowski · 3 years ago
XCOM more than any other game taught me to weigh much more heavily the consequences of the downside, even when it's unlikely to happen. Be in a position to maximize the probability of success, take the shot, and have a backup ready for when it all goes wrong.
VoodooJuJu · 3 years ago
I don't have a game to answer with, but want to share some related sentiments.

"Risk tolerance" is a trait you acquire only when you've never known hunger. Only when you've never been faced with homelessness. Only when you've never been so poor that you can't afford to throw something away, less you may one day need it.

When the worst thing that can come of your failure is going home to a supportive and connected family, a hot meal, and a feather pillow to rest your head, of course you'll be "risk tolerant".

I don't think any game can give you this trait. The only way to acquire it is to be born and raised in a house of abundance.

...though at the same time, the threat of destitution could be a great way to really push one to succeed. "Burn the ships", "necessity is the mother of invention", and all that.

BizarroLand · 3 years ago
I disagree.

I've been hungry. I've been homeless for over a year, both as a child and as an adult. I've been so poor that I can't afford to throw away broken shoes because I couldn't afford to replace them.

But, that was temporary. I'm doing better now, and I have some risk tolerance.

Maybe not as much as someone who didn't experience what I experienced, but still. Tolerance for risk comes from an acceptance of possible outcomes. You can accept an outcome regardless of your personal circumstances, after all, people with lung cancer sneak out of chemotherapy to smoke cigarettes, and people who are about to have their lights turned off still gamble their paychecks away.

trinovantes · 3 years ago
You can try rogue-like games like Hades where you are expected to fail/die. Your future attempts are improved by what you've accomplished/collected in previous attempts.