I have a long-time friend who tried to get an Amazon Warehouse job after relocating to a new city for his SO’s career. Given all of the negative press he assumed they’d be desperate for employees and he could walk right into the job. It turns out those jobs are highly competitive in the area because they paid relatively well and had good benefits.
The hourly rate alone doesn’t tell the full story. Many more typical warehouse jobs are truly hourly jobs with minimal or no benefits. He said a lot of them tried to hire people for less than full time to avoid having to provide benefits. For all of the negative press, it sounded like the Amazon Warehouse was the place to be if you wanted a decent warehouse job with benefits in his area.
A relative worked at Amazon’s warehouse, he described it as slightly above average pay for the area with above average benefits. However, the job really sucks, injuries are common, and turnover is high at least in VA. There is a huge range of warehouse jobs including many with a lot of paid downtime, the easier the job the less they can pay.
Not the US, but 2 of my siblings have worked in Amazon warehouses in the UK and it's the same story. The pay is decent, the work is simple (if physically taxing), and plenty of overtime is available. Only downside is the warehouses tend to be outside bus/train routes so getting there without a car is an arse, but Amazon set up shuttle buses to compensate for that.
>He said a lot of them tried to hire people for less than full time to avoid having to provide benefits.
There needs to be naming and shaming of those that perpetuate this practice. I know retailers (Tractor Supply) for cashiers.
If you're doing warehouse work, you are part of the logistics backbone, you deserve not to have your chain jerked around. Arguably, no one should be getting their chain jerked around, but I'll call it a win to purge this pathological HR hacking from another business layer.
Software engineers (including me) tend to forget what the labor market is like outside our own bubbles. Most people can’t do things we take for granted like hop to a better paying job when they get bored/unhappy.
Presumably they're being disingenuous and comparing the average salary across the entire industry (including senior positions / management / etc) to Amazon's salary floor, while you are making the appropriate comparison to a warehouse worker.
And even then comparing an average to a minimum would still be disingenuous.
I take data from these sites with a grain of salt because it seems far too easy and tempting to poison the data well for those wishing to see the rates lower than reality. Payscale is a bit closer to what I think reality might be. It's unfortunate how gaming perception and such information is such a potentially successful strategy.
The OOH from DOL puts it closer to $14.66/hr which I put a bit more faith in:
However, if you look at the table below that, even when you differentiate to more specific occupation, median (and certainly mean) wages are above $15. Perhaps there's a further differentiation to "hand laborers and materials movers" that brings this number down further, per the other BLS link in this thread.
>Where are they getting this information? The average wage in the US is lower, like $13-14
Could just be a calculation error. If you just saw indeed's average total yearly salary that would show slightly over $15 an hour but wouldn't factor in overtime hours.
They also seem to pick on "seasonal work". I'm sure there are many people who are willing to take a job that's a bit of a "grind" to have some extra cash for a holiday celebration. If you know you'll only be doing this job for two months, you'll have a different mindset and you won't feel trapped.
So not only are you seriously quibbling over a $0.67 per hour discrepancy - but you're doing so dishonestly (attempting to make a 5 percent discrepancy look more like 15 percent).
A key aspect of company towns is that there's only one serious employer. This then gives that employer a very dangerous amount of power, which is why we don't like this structure.
Possibly this is true in don't places with Amazon, but the article doesn't make the argument. The closest they get is saying that Amazon is a large employer in Seattle, but that's not enough -- the city is large enough that there are tons of non-Amazon options.
Historically, company town companies also paid in their own currency that was only spendable in the company stores. Amazon still appears to be paying in standard dollars.
Every time I pay an employee with a crypto we issued, I always chuckle that I get to pay in corporate scrip
It's like "lol I read the wikipedia article about this!"
anyway, great way to save costs, extend runway and get massive tax deductions at the same time. the best tax deductions are ones that don't require you spending your fiat dollars, so this is pretty high up there.
I just went to Gunkanjima (“battleship”) island in Nagasaki, Japan. At one point it was the most densely populated area on earth.
It was used at the villain backdrop in the 007 movie.
The history of the island is that it was owned by Mitsubishi mining company during Japan’s industrial revolution thru World War II. There they mined coal from the seabed.
Apparently, some 40% of miners died. There also used forced labor from prisoners of war. Japan is filled with UNESCO heritage sites, and this site is one of them, but it’s bid was met with criticism.
In these small towns in Japan, the industrialists and barons have statues erected for them, but the story of the common worker is often lost and not presented during these tours.
The article seems to contain nothing that would qualify for the words "Company Town". It appears to boil down "look amazon is big, surely it means that it must be evil!".
> The article seems to contain nothing that would qualify for the words "Company Town". It appears to boil down "look amazon is big, surely it means that it must be evil!".
I guess this is the difference between a literal v. figurative interpretation of the title. The article itself is speaking to Amazon's efforts to sustain its hiring pipeline in the face of colossal churn, describing activities such as sponsoring secondary schools while installing their own branding as a condition of sponsorship.
> > A dozen students sat clustered at work tables inside an air-conditioned classroom, which was designed to emulate the inside of an Amazon facility. On one wall, Amazon’s giant logo grinned across a yellow and green banner. The words “CUSTOMER OBSESSION” and “DELIVER RESULTS” were painted against a corporate-style yellow backdrop. On a whiteboard, a teacher had written the words “Logistics Final Project,” and the lesson of the day was on Amazon’s “14 Leadership Principles.” Each teenager wore a company golf shirt emblazoned with the Amazon logo.
> > Students and staff members expressed pride in being associated with the company. Amazon partnered with the school as part of its five-year anniversary in the Inland Empire, donating $50,000 to start the pilot program, the giant sweepstakes-style Amazon check displayed prominently at the classroom entrance. The students had already taken field trips to tour the nearby Amazon warehouse.
> A public high-school classroom designed to resemble an Amazon facility, with students wearing Amazon logos on their clothing as they memorize Amazon’s leadership principles (which, it is worth noting, also include “Ownership” and “Think Big,” injunctions that hold merit for readers of this magazine when imagining how we might solve the problems exemplified by Amazon). Such a relationship between the company and public goods like a high school is part of what it means to consider Amazon as “the major working-class space of suburban and exurban socialization.”
> I guess this is the difference between a literal v. figurative interpretation of the title. The article itself is speaking to Amazon's efforts to sustain its hiring pipeline in the face of colossal churn, describing activities such as sponsoring secondary schools while installing their own branding as a condition of sponsorship.
Isn't this very banner in the outfield of little league games in America? As in, companies big and small ask for their branding to be visible when they sponsor things.
Even the phrase "company town" itself does not signify anything evil. In fact I'm wondering if such a place might be better than the usual government administered cities and towns.
Honestly, I was hoping Amazon was actually making housing for its workers. I think high density housing within walking distance of your job is the realistic solution for lowering co2 emissions.
Doesn't it? It usually signifies abuses like being paid in company "currency" only usable in company owned stores, being unable to change jobs without having to move ( with the associated inability to refuse whatever the employer throws at you, however hard/illegal/dangerous).
Is there anything positive about company towns? Maybe they're better than towns with no jobs, but I'm not even sure about that..
This article actually quotes her. It's the only part of this article that isn't just a string of abstract jargon. Without the quote, I would have no clue what it's even about.
Like a lot of these stories there’s lots of ways to spin reality.
Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.”
Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.
Labour without a job is almost useless. People with the ability to figure out good use of labour is the limiting factor, not labour itself. And it is really hard to get enough value out of labour to pay modern salaries.
If you disagree, why don't you just hire people yourself and tell them to do stuff? Easy money from exploiting labour, no?
Workers receive compensation for their labor. They aren't entitled to future profit that results from their labor. Otherwise, I'm "exploiting" Apple for make profit off of my work laptop.
Then quit, don’t get another job, and stop complaining about it. But most people can’t, because they aren’t just blindly exploited, they’re compensated for their work and that gives them more freedom and future options. If you want to say they’re not fairly compensated, go work to get a bill passed. Or run for office. Or make your own company. Just do SOMETHING, making flippant remarks online and whining isn’t productive and doesn’t help anyone.
Jacobin finds the act of running a for profit business under any circumstances to be unethical so does it really matter what they have to say past that?
I suppose we'll see how this play out but... I think there are some serious chasms between 19th century manufacturing's take on mass employment and the tech industries'.
Henry Ford's ideal for manufacturing workers was long term employment, high commitment. The modern tech industry's ideal for logistical work is a fluid, low commitment workforces, with "gig economy" at the extreme end. I don't think amazon want to arrive at a place where the average employee has been working in the warehouse for a decade.
Readit News
Where are they getting this information? The average wage in the US is lower, like $13-14.
https://www.indeed.com/career/warehouse-worker/salaries
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Warehouse_Worker/Ho...
The hourly rate alone doesn’t tell the full story. Many more typical warehouse jobs are truly hourly jobs with minimal or no benefits. He said a lot of them tried to hire people for less than full time to avoid having to provide benefits. For all of the negative press, it sounded like the Amazon Warehouse was the place to be if you wanted a decent warehouse job with benefits in his area.
So, just to add another opinion
I've seen only positive comments (sample size around 3) about working in Amazon's warehouse in Poland
There needs to be naming and shaming of those that perpetuate this practice. I know retailers (Tractor Supply) for cashiers.
If you're doing warehouse work, you are part of the logistics backbone, you deserve not to have your chain jerked around. Arguably, no one should be getting their chain jerked around, but I'll call it a win to purge this pathological HR hacking from another business layer.
Dead Comment
And even then comparing an average to a minimum would still be disingenuous.
Dead Comment
The OOH from DOL puts it closer to $14.66/hr which I put a bit more faith in:
https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/m...
However, if you look at the table below that, even when you differentiate to more specific occupation, median (and certainly mean) wages are above $15. Perhaps there's a further differentiation to "hand laborers and materials movers" that brings this number down further, per the other BLS link in this thread.
I'd be curious about regional differences though, e.g. in Bessemer https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-w...
https://www.aboutamazon.com/workplace/employee-benefits
Could just be a calculation error. If you just saw indeed's average total yearly salary that would show slightly over $15 an hour but wouldn't factor in overtime hours.
Not all sources support that claim: https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/warehouse-w...
That’s probably the discrepancy, fwiw.
Possibly this is true in don't places with Amazon, but the article doesn't make the argument. The closest they get is saying that Amazon is a large employer in Seattle, but that's not enough -- the city is large enough that there are tons of non-Amazon options.
For tax purposes, even things like free lunch are considered paymeny aswell.
It's like "lol I read the wikipedia article about this!"
anyway, great way to save costs, extend runway and get massive tax deductions at the same time. the best tax deductions are ones that don't require you spending your fiat dollars, so this is pretty high up there.
How can you staff a warehouse for $15/hr in places were a studio starts at $1250/mo?
I wouldn't be one bit surprised of Amazon starts getting into real estate, offering employees monthly "rent vouchers".
There are cases like remote locations where an employer can provide housing tax-free but likely not near an expensive city.
It was used at the villain backdrop in the 007 movie.
The history of the island is that it was owned by Mitsubishi mining company during Japan’s industrial revolution thru World War II. There they mined coal from the seabed.
Apparently, some 40% of miners died. There also used forced labor from prisoners of war. Japan is filled with UNESCO heritage sites, and this site is one of them, but it’s bid was met with criticism.
In these small towns in Japan, the industrialists and barons have statues erected for them, but the story of the common worker is often lost and not presented during these tours.
I guess this is the difference between a literal v. figurative interpretation of the title. The article itself is speaking to Amazon's efforts to sustain its hiring pipeline in the face of colossal churn, describing activities such as sponsoring secondary schools while installing their own branding as a condition of sponsorship.
> > A dozen students sat clustered at work tables inside an air-conditioned classroom, which was designed to emulate the inside of an Amazon facility. On one wall, Amazon’s giant logo grinned across a yellow and green banner. The words “CUSTOMER OBSESSION” and “DELIVER RESULTS” were painted against a corporate-style yellow backdrop. On a whiteboard, a teacher had written the words “Logistics Final Project,” and the lesson of the day was on Amazon’s “14 Leadership Principles.” Each teenager wore a company golf shirt emblazoned with the Amazon logo.
> > Students and staff members expressed pride in being associated with the company. Amazon partnered with the school as part of its five-year anniversary in the Inland Empire, donating $50,000 to start the pilot program, the giant sweepstakes-style Amazon check displayed prominently at the classroom entrance. The students had already taken field trips to tour the nearby Amazon warehouse.
> A public high-school classroom designed to resemble an Amazon facility, with students wearing Amazon logos on their clothing as they memorize Amazon’s leadership principles (which, it is worth noting, also include “Ownership” and “Think Big,” injunctions that hold merit for readers of this magazine when imagining how we might solve the problems exemplified by Amazon). Such a relationship between the company and public goods like a high school is part of what it means to consider Amazon as “the major working-class space of suburban and exurban socialization.”
Further (and quite interesting) reading on the concept of a company town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
Isn't this very banner in the outfield of little league games in America? As in, companies big and small ask for their branding to be visible when they sponsor things.
Dead Comment
Oh, I'm surprised that is allowed on HN.
Like one step above tabloids.
Dead Comment
Is there anything positive about company towns? Maybe they're better than towns with no jobs, but I'm not even sure about that..
For a better analysis of Amazon's entrenched relationship with the Inland Empire in California, check out Erika Hayasaki's writing for the NY Times Magazine: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/magazine/amazon-workers-e...
Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.”
Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.
> it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another
If you disagree, why don't you just hire people yourself and tell them to do stuff? Easy money from exploiting labour, no?
Midwit theories of Utopia always seem to single in on one thing they can turn into a boogieman, and ignore the rest of the complex system.
If you want to call it exploitation than call it exploitation. I'm fine with exploitation if the definition of exploitation is "jobs"
Jacobin is left Breitbart.
I'm reminded of the old Soviet joke than under capitalism, man exploits man, but under socialism it's the other way around.
In the ideal Jacobin world, all towns would be company towns ("owned by the people"). Please keep that in mind.
Henry Ford's ideal for manufacturing workers was long term employment, high commitment. The modern tech industry's ideal for logistical work is a fluid, low commitment workforces, with "gig economy" at the extreme end. I don't think amazon want to arrive at a place where the average employee has been working in the warehouse for a decade.