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Posted by u/pangoraw 5 years ago
Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?
In the 3D printing world, there are plenty of open source choices, allowing manufacturers to drive down costs. On the other hand, it seems 2d printing is stuck with legacy companies with completely closed drivers and hardware (you have to buy cartridges from the original manufacturer).

Apart from the nozzle why is it hard to manufacture and/or design?

lpfabiani · 5 years ago
I worked for a while in the R&D department of HP printer division. As @jacquesm said, good 2D printer costs peanuts. The amount of R&D in color quality, speed and other parameters is huge. There were a lot of teams involved: mechanical, electrical, software, chemical... And because of that investment, there are thousands of patents that the big players are continuously paying each other for. It's a very old market with a lot of legacy. For most of us, a printer is something for home photos, some documents, and so, but that's only a little part of the cake: the money is in professional printing, ads, designers, etc.

Once that is said, it should be possible to work in a general-purpose open source 2d printer. The open community has achieved bigger goals. The biggest problem I can see is the entry barrier: to get a very basic printer, you have to invest thousands of time with a lot of knowledge in different areas, when a basic printer, even from the large companies, is not very expensive.

I think that one of the only chances we have for that to happen is that a company frees its designs and patents and community starts working from there.

kevstev · 5 years ago
What kind of patents? I had tank of an HP laserjet 3 in the 90s, and patent life is 20 years. For the basic functionality, they should all be expired at this point, and the limiting factor at the time was the high cost of memory and compute.

Shouldn't anything relevant have expired years ago? The first laserjet came out in 1984 it seems. Prices have come down, but I haven't seen any real innovation in printers (not that I really need any- I just want them to print)- since 2000.

Nbox9 · 5 years ago
Do you remember printing in 2000? Literally every printer was suffering from constant paper jams and other mechanical malfunctions. In 2020 a top consumer or business printer will not jam on you.

The business printers in 2000 had slow processors and more ram. It was significantly bad that printing PDFs spent more time processing the file than putting toner on page.

Finally, the interfacing for printers today is fantastic. I know this isn’t about toner on page, but having wifi connection, an LCD touchscreen interface, and them generally being a little smaller has made the experience better.

The only thing that was better about printing in 2000 is that back then printing was more useful because so many people wanted paper copies.

gonzo41 · 5 years ago
I had a burst of creative thought, thinking about getting a typewriter and hooking up a ton of actuators to it so I could just slide it an array of a document to type out. But it'd probably move to fast or slow, jam and then there's feeding it paper.

It'd probably be easier to make a nice block alphabet for a plotter and then just print your documents as biro drawings.

But again, feeding paper seems like a very fiddly problem.

WillPostForFood · 5 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_wheel_printing

Daisy wheel printers were slow, loud, and had huge limits (no kerning, single typeface, no printing family photos), but the print quality was good. And if you are the kind of person who likes mechanical keyboard sounds, the sound of a daisy wheel printer is pretty cool.

https://youtu.be/ZVQkbT-g3aw

mceachen · 5 years ago
> feeding paper ... fiddly

Printer paper came in long, laser-perforated sheets with tabs. You'd load in the start and one sheet pulls in the next.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_stationery

The crank you had to put into the front of the printer to get the steam-powered engine turning could jam in the transmission, though, and you had to watch the temperature of your coal-fired ink tank so it didn't over-boil. Those "electronic" printer guys thought they were so fancy.

Nbox9 · 5 years ago
The problem isn’t building an open source printer, the problem is building a good open source printer.
trynewideas · 5 years ago
2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awxbu8y5cv8

"A reverse-engineered typewriter hack to make it into a printer. Using a simple MOSFET circuit and an Arduino (actually, a Light Blue Bean+ arduino compatible board), I reverse-engineered my IBM Wheelwriter 6 typewriter to print out text and some rudimentary graphics. The GitHub repository is here, and I'll continue to update it with schematics, etc., when I get some time: https://github.com/tofergregg/IBM-Wheelwriter-Hack"

Same user has a similar hack for a 1960s Smith Corona Sterling Automatic 12: https://github.com/tofergregg/smith_corona_printer

adyer07 · 5 years ago
You could look into the IBM Selectric - the typing element is a ball so it can't jam, and it's actuated by little cables that might be hackable. Feed it paper off of a roll, and you have your jam-free, continuous printing solution :)
vekelly09 · 5 years ago
I remember it well. All of us computer hackers back in the late 1970s did something like that with a bunch of solenoids. It worked, but you got about 12 cps on a good day, and only constant width fonts. Also, if one of your solenoids was a bit sluggish it would throw off the registration of some of the characters. The advent of daisy wheel technology killed off the Selectric printers. Remember daisy wheels, especially the early metal ones??

OTOH hacking an IBM Executive might have been something. Proportional spacing!! (but a much fiddlier mechanism)

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Vrondi · 5 years ago
You need an 1980s Daisy Wheel Printer. Problem solved.
_def · 5 years ago
> the money is in professional printing, ads, designers, etc.

And ink cartridges

Nbox9 · 5 years ago
Ink cartridges is only a $1B global industry [0]. That isn’t a small market, but the global printing industry, with all digital content being transferred onto any 2d mediums through automatic means is probably closer to $1T. Think about every book, every magazine, every coffee mug with a funny saying, every graphic TShirt. In the world.

The ink cartridges are good money, but it’s not where the money is at.

[0] https://www.rfdtv.com/story/42630937/global-ink-cartridges-m...

shiftpgdn · 5 years ago
That model is juuuuuust about dead. Canon/Lexmark/HP are now all pushing megatank/ecotank continuous ink systems. I bought a Canon Pixma G6020 for printing photos and I'm super pleased with it. It comes with enough ink to do 18,000 black and white pages and 6000 full color pages. Refills are around $40 for the set.

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formerly_proven · 5 years ago
There are lots of DIY plotters, but printers are just way more complicated.

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teknopaul · 5 years ago
bit of a non-argument this. Existence of cheap alternatives misses the point of opensource, its not about cost. ref: free as in beer vs free as in speech.
adwn · 5 years ago
I think you're missing the main argument: It would take a lot of money and cross-domain knowledge to design and build a passable printer from scratch. Contrast that with software, where all you need is time and a low to medium power computer. In fact, compared to software open source, all other open source engineering is non-existent (relative to OSS, not in absolute terms).
ceceron · 5 years ago
Sure, but money is a very effective motivational power. If something is expensive, there is a higher need to produce an alternative.
kiba · 5 years ago
It's a matter of ROI.

There isn't much return or expertise on building an open source 2D printer, as opposed to 3D printers.

pjmlp · 5 years ago
99% of FOSS consumers only care about free beer, hence the uptake on MIT like licenses.
detaro · 5 years ago
Printers are cheap and widely available, which leaves a DIY printer which is going to be slower, more error-prone and more expensive as a very niche idea. There is a clear benefit to buying or building an open hobby 3D printer, whereas that's harder to argue for a 2D one - while there is a lot of crap around, there's enough workable choices, aftermarket inks/toner works, you likely won't be modifying/tuning a 2D printer the same way you maybe would with a 3D printer, ...

Ink delivery is likely the main challenge (although I've seen some low-res attempts), combined with the speed and precision needed for a good printer - reaching a few hundred DPI requires positioning things quite precisely. Laser printers are interesting, but then you need specialized parts like the drum that I'd expect to be difficult to produce in single quantities.

Open pen plotters are a thing, but again not typically used for normal printing duties.

wegs · 5 years ago
I don't think this is quite right. An open source 2d printer would allow for a lot of things commercial printers don't allow for. For example, I'd like to be able to print on things which are not paper. If I had an inkjet head mounted on something, there's a ton I could do with it, from modifying it to print directly on fabric, to integrating it with other fabrication technologies to make decorated objects. Even a CNC mill or laser cutter with an integrated printhead would be invaluable, both for labeling parts and decoratively (for making pretty parts).

There's a massive growth curve too. If we could find a way to print on plastic, we could integrate this with a 3d printer and make decorated parts. I think this would be multiple stages of amateur R&D, but it would eventually happen (yes, I suspect someone will respond with all the technical issues why it can't work with current technology, ignoring all disclaimers -- I am aware this won't work right now).

I think of tons of other use cases.

I think the problem is as others have described. Making a printhead costs peanuts, but engineering one and NREs are astronomical. Ditto for paper handling, and many other parts of the printer. There used to be an printhead open enough for DIY (you could buy them in quantities of 1, and there was a spec sheet), but it's not sold anymore.

adwn · 5 years ago
> An open source 2d printer would allow for a lot of things commercial printers don't allow for. For example, I'd like to be able to print on things which are not paper.

Those kinds of printers already exist commercially. The argument is the same: Printing on clothes or PCBs might be cool, but crappy DIY printers that can do that are even more niche than crappy DIY printers that print on paper.

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tweetle_beetle · 5 years ago
I also wouldn't underestimate the challenge of moving paper. I once spoke to someone who worked for Kodak (or a similar company - it was a long time ago) who said that they acquired another printer company purely because their paper moving technology was excellent and it would have taken years to develop an equivalent quality of engineering internally. This was before the present day race to the bottom in the printer market.
colinb · 5 years ago
If you haven't read it already, https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/12/why-paper-jams... is a lot of fun.
detaro · 5 years ago
Yeah. printing on a single hand-fed sheet: probably "easy". Reliably going through a random pack of 500 pages, not so much.

Something pen-plotters don't do (they typically want paper to be placed down for them, or work of a roll of paper), and the maybe 3D-printer equivalent of preparing the print bed and removing prints from it is a well-known source of problems and manual work.

Inhibit · 5 years ago
Having taken apart a color laserjet to repair the paper uptake I agree. That was a lot of engineering to make sure the paper moves through the path repeatably.
wccrawford · 5 years ago
While I'm sure it's a challenge, after watching 3D printers evolve over the years, I've no doubt that random people will find unique and amazing ways to handle the problem.
imglorp · 5 years ago
How about laser engraving tech? Can a laser engraver be tight focused to 300 dpi and power set (or sensed) to just make a mark on white paper? Does the positioning accuracy also need to be improved to get that 300 dpi?

You'd never run out of toner at least.

Edit, answered at least one question: yes engravers do 500 dpi routinely. Here's one: https://www.troteclaser.com/en-us/knowledge/tips-for-laser-u...

Phillipharryt · 5 years ago
The issue is then speed, you can't engrave at anywhere near the same speed as you can print.
miahi · 5 years ago
I would not consider an engraver for which you have to call to ask the price as "routine". From what I could find, the cheapest trotec is $16k second hand on ebay (and there is another from their cheap line for $56k second hand). You can hire somebody to handwrite everything you need for that kind of money.

Also, high power lasers are consumables.

mattmaroon · 5 years ago
Or we could get rid of paper and just print everything on plywood.
amelius · 5 years ago
> Printers are cheap and widely available

Then how about a printer that can print on a large wall? E.g. with spray paint.

fsflover · 5 years ago
See also: https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d... (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14501894)

Some of the documents that we previously received through FOIA suggested that all major manufacturers of color laser printers entered a secret agreement with governments to ensure that the output of those printers is forensically traceable.

username505 · 5 years ago
This and exactly this; 2D printing technology is sealed tight because of those damn microdots. Lulz
ansible · 5 years ago
I wonder if this is why color printers won't print out black & white print jobs when they run out of color ink, even if they still have black ink.
cocoapuffs7 · 5 years ago
Yes. But this is unrelated to the question they asked.
fsflover · 5 years ago
I don't think so. The current situation suggests that we really need an open-source printer, because otherwise there is no privacy at all.
teknopaul · 5 years ago
[citation needed]
dddddaviddddd · 5 years ago
I work with inkjet printers in research for my Masters program. I found the three blog posts about printing on this blog to be helpful: https://www.kylescholz.com/

The author describes their work to make a very simple DIY inkjet printer for under $1000. While they are using a nozzle that they purchased, you can make a similar one yourself (check out the book "Microdrop generation" by Eric Lee).

All-in-all it's fairly complicated just to start printing droplets, to say nothing of scaling beyond a single nozzle or precisely moving the printhead.

TimSchumann · 5 years ago
And if you're one of the lucky 10,000 today, Bill Hammack over at the EngineerGuy youtube channel has this[0] fantastic video explaining how piezoelectric microdot printers work.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DckWNwE7R4

pritovido · 5 years ago
You answered your question with "apart from the nozzle"

It is the nozzle. Everything else is very simple to make because it is already done for 3d printers that are more complex than 2d printers(if you do not consider the nozzle).

5 years or so ago I made a 2d plotter with friends at my 3d printers community with the reverse engineering knowledge that we had about a specific cartridge with nozzles on it.

Printing with ink was easy, very easy. But we were interested in using it for 3d print wax, not so easy.

You need to manufacture nozzles, and that requires lots of money. That requires manufacturing plants. Very cheap in volume, but requires volume.

Open source has not volume in the millions, like big companies have, and those companies are not going to sell you the nozzles so you commoditize their professional field like linux did.

abdullahkhalids · 5 years ago
Why can't you 3D print a nozzle? Or are there electronics in there too?
NovemberWhiskey · 5 years ago
... because the channels through which the ink is propelled are only microns wide, and the ink volumes which are distributed per drop are in the picoliter range which requires a complex piezo-electric control system.
vslira · 5 years ago
Friendly reminder that rms launched the FLOSS movement because he was incensed when he couldn't program a printer at MIT to do something he wanted.
jandrese · 5 years ago
I read Kernigan's memoir on Unix and one of the things that surprised me is how much of the book is devoted to Bell Labs trying to get their fucking printer to work. These are people like Dennis Ritchie, Brian Kernighan, Alfred Aho, and the like wasting months on the broken drivers and flaky hardware of their document printer.
callamdelaney · 5 years ago
TIL Richard Stallman's middle name is Matthew.
somehnguy · 5 years ago
Thanks for point this out. In my head it's always Richard 'Mainline' Stallman, like a competitive video game handle, no idea why.. I knew it was absolutely wrong but never cared enough to Google it. Now I know.
tsjq · 5 years ago
So true. And so sad that there's no open source printers yet. :(
dirtybirdnj · 5 years ago
I'm actively working on one of these right now.

What you are talking about I refer to as 2.5 axis machine vs the traditional 3 axis PLA/FDM printer. Aka a plotter. Using an inkjet cartridge or a laserjet toner on a piece of paper outside the context of the printer it was designed for seems foolhardy at best... but what about moving a pen up and down?

Shameless plug, I've been working on a project called Robot Draws You! (www.robotdrawsyou.com). I'm currently using an off-the-shelf machine and the software / cloud hoops it requires me to jump through were enough to convince me to build my own machine. For the proof of concept I'm using a Duet2 board, but eventually I want to write some code that will sit on a raspi and talk to the Duet to allow the machine a more granular drip-feed style control over the "printing" process". More on that later.

"Why is it hard?" The challenge starts with taking in a given SVG file, making sure it scales / fits within the bounds of a given writeable area, and then generating GCODE to send to the printer / plotter. Because there's no extruder, custom GCODE needs to get created to take advantage of the GPIO pins to move a servo up/down to control the pen. The software challenge is replacing the much-hated cloud interface I complain about. It may suck, but it does a lot and it actually works.

The more I use "the cloud", the more I am reminded it does not provide adequate controls/info on:

- The size of the rendered image relative to the writeable area

- The order in which the layers of the file get rendered

- Information about the progress / time left per layer

- Repeatability of failed layers without re-writing entire project

So crazy me decided "I'll make my own plotter UI and hardware!" It's slow going but it's really fun and I enjoy the challenge. The end solution is going to be a mix of hardware and software that allows you to upload an SVG / vector file to a web UI, start/stop/repeat layers and control the order of the rendering. I like to make drawings of people, and also want to use this to make gigantic maps as well.

sleepybrett · 5 years ago
.. I mean I'm working on my own plotter too, but only because I'd like something larger format than my off the shelf axidraw.

There are tons of OS boards and software already developed around this problem, you don't have to do it all yourself.

morpheuskafka · 5 years ago
A 3D printer needs only a comparatively simple metal novel, and the rest of the printer is just moving that around, some other things like heating the pad to help things work smoothly, and processing a file into a set of movement instructions for the head.

A 2D printer needs to deal with four or more liquids (ink) or fine pieces of plastic (toner). Rather than just heating the ink up, a tiny electrical current is used to squeeze out a drop at a time. Everywhere the liquid touches can get dried up, and needs to be self-cleaned. And then you have to address the color mixing algorithm, calibration, ICC profiles, etc. There are waste ink absorbers, print heads, etc. many of which involve specialty materials that can only be made in a precision factory, which would not be available for open source development.