My landlord installed a meth detector in my home which looks like a large smoke detector on the ceiling. It apparently communicates via the mobile network, but I have no idea how it actually measures meth. I doubt it actually measures anything (the product is made by http://www.methminder.co.nz/ but there is no actual information there). Point is, it makes tenants feel less secure. Which makes landlords feel more secure (ironically, products like these exploit the moral panic and lack of security that landlords feel regarding the meth crisis). Even if this Alexa for Landlords does nothing nefarious, its real purpose is to create that feeling of insecurity that landlords want.
Maybe, just maybe, the landlord is listening. And we better not refuse the device because maybe they'll get the idea that we don't trust them...
>Q Can I discontinue my monitoring subscription at any time?
No, you'll quickly become addicted to the peace of mind and security you feel from using Meth Minder, finding it near impossible to give up. At this point our montly rate increases to $5K/month and you will do anything to ensure your monthly fix. We've secured $100M in VC on our incredibly low churn due to the addictive nature of our product.
Yeah but the landlords are just gonna pile this costs onto their tenants, aren’t they? So in the end the tenants are the ones paying for it, not the landlords.
Meth contaimination is a huge problem and can be very costly to remediate. It's mostly from cooking meth but even using can contaiminate a house causing 6 figures in damages.
I wish my previous SF apartment had obnoxious chemical detectors. Smells and smokes and chemicals don't just stay in one apartment, and the management couldn't track down their source, despite being strong enough to cause health problems for others.
The war on drugs is total BS, but so is trashing a place and sickening neighbors just for your own selfish high. There are ways to do things that are respectful of others.
Meth Detector, Ha! Meth heads will just place a ziplock bag with a rubber band around just like all of the weed smokers in hotels. Never underestimate the "creativity" of a tweaker.
It’s called Alexa for Residential that, according to Amazon, “makes it easy for property managers to set up and manage Alexa-powered smart home experiences throughout their buildings.”
One aspect I find particularly dystopian is the double-speak of "smart homes", "smart schools", "smart cities".
Whenever I hear the term "smart", I associate it with the countless real-life examples of privacy violations (bordering on unconstitutional), security snafus, and the power it gives to authoritarian tendencies in private companies and public institutions.
In what way? Smart home control? Alexa demonstrably does not listen to your conversations and it would be illegal for a landlord to do so. This just seems like a nice way to build smart home abilities into a house or rental so people don’t have to bring a million bulbs/hubs/sensors with them everywhere.
> Alexa demonstrably does not listen to your conversations
I won't soon forget this story[0]. It listens to everything, and if it thinks it hears the start of a command it starts doing stuff with what it hears. That detection can have bugs, some of them practically unavoidable (like differentiating between a conversation about a person named Alexa and a command).
Amazon themselves have said that "[voice] data is stored remotely" as opposed to on the device[1]. So it seems likely that most Alexa users have had at least some parts of a conversation in which they did not intend to involve Alexa stored on an Amazon server, and possibly reviewed by some number of employees[2].
I think the strongest thing you can say "demonstrably" about regarding Alexa is that it does not store _all_ your conversations.
I'm used to rented properties where you get no control over things like the thermostat (which are all Hive managed) but that's roughly where i draw the line.
Privacy aside, this whole concept seems like it will flop.
This is a great move for Amazon, but I don't really understand the benefit to renters or landlords.
"Luxury" apartments in NYC used to have ipod/iphone docks in the wall the connected to the speaker system. Every single agent talked about this great feature, but it just looked awful. Besides the fact that I'm an Android user, the connector was pre lightning so at some point I'm sure the landlord has to upgrade everyone's wall dock. A feature that only some can use, and fewer will use. Only so they can seem extra fancy to a select crowd.
The point of that antidote is that this Amazon "feature" will likely only be in "luxury" buildings as well. Most landlords don't even allow their rent to be paid online. I doubt they will get "alexa pay my rent" to work reliably.
About half the people I know will not stand have any home spy devices in their home on principal alone, and the other half already have one. Putting this in you're building seems like a way to make half your renter base dismiss you, and redundant for the other half.
>Most landlords don't even allow their rent to be paid online.
I felt like I traveled back to 1990 when I moved to Canada. In Germany I've never paid anything with cheque. We've always had free wire transfers. Online or offline is not visible even to the landlord.
When I found out this doesn't work with Canadian banks I was flabbergasted.
I moved back 10 years ago. Is this still the case in US/CAN?
When I moved to Canada last year, no landlords I talked to took cheques, thankfully. They all required E-transfer, which is free, and near instant. This is in Toronto.
It depends, really. My first apartment was in a three unit building managed by a small management company. We mailed checks.
My next apartment was a condo we rented directly from the owners. We paid by bank transfer.
Then the third place I rented years later after moving across country was managed by a large management firm and they had an online portal with rental payment, maintenance tickets, and all that. We weren't in large building, it was a townhouse, but they had properties all over the region they managed.
For what it's worth, my last several landlords in Canada have accepted Interac E-Transfers (free instant domestic transfers up to $3000) for rent instead of post-dated cheques when I asked, and many of my friends say they do the same thing.
I've only rented in America once, but in that case the property management company had their own online system that accepted (slow non-instant) bank transfers or (with a surcharge) credit cards.
US: My landlords accept checks and money orders, I have my banks bill pay service send my landlord a check every month, so I never actually have to mail or write a check myself.
> Most landlords don't even allow their rent to be paid online.
This just completely flummoxes me. The US really is a third world nation sometimes.
Here in the Netherlands it is unthinkable to pay your rent in cash. Most people pay their rent via standing order, or for the few people who haven't automated their payments, via direct wire transfer.
I assume they mean cash, in the sense of typically a bank withdrawal via check. In which case, they can almost certainly also set up a recurring check payment via their bank online. I actually send quite a few "checks" but with the exception of my housekeeper and some service people I rarely actually write out a check.
This is done in America mostly for tax evasion purposes. Most larger buildings run by a real entity allow for bill pay, it's mom & pop landlords that usually ask for cash.
Take that with a grain of salt. I've been renting in the US since I got into college, 5 apartment complexes later and I have yet to see a single place that will not let you pay online. This might be the case for some smaller apartments, but anything bigger and they will always have online payments.
I think OP might be a renter in NYC / SF where you have smaller landlords that aren't running 300+ unit complexes.
I pay my rent by "check" but it's still fully automated. You just log into your bank and set up a recurring payment; they print a check and mail it every month (for free).
And? This implying Alexa is spying on your conversations crap is getting out of hand on HN.
The dude is ceo of a cybersecurity company and has very unique and deep insights into global security threats. He’s definitely someone you would want to have around to advise on security especially as foreign threats are ramping up on the digital front.
Alexa, Google assistant, Siri are demonstrably not listening to your conversations, us in the tech industry should know better than to spread this sort of FUD.
Renting a home is a special case since housing is a necessity. It is heavily regulated because of that, but we have to be vigilent to ensure that regulations keep up with the times
For most other items, the amount of control that you need really comes down to priorities. Given my use of computers, I buy the hardware and prefer open source applications since there is a large degree of control. When it comes to entertainment (games, music, etc.) rental is fine since they are not all that important. Some product categories is a blend of the two: some books I buy, others I "rent" (rather, borrow through libraries).
As for Alexa for landlords, this may be a case where some laws need revision. Even if it is not used as a surveilance device, it must be classified as such since the potential is there. It doesn't matter whether that potential is used by Amazon, the landlord, or another authorized or unauthorized party.
If you buy something you no longer control it either. Cars nowadays can be disabled remotely with the press of a button and are not repairable because you don't have access to the software.
That is too often true. But at least you have the right to attempt to control it. Sadly even that is under attack, with laws against circumvention and "reverse engineering" (i.e. looking at how something works).
I agree - the situation described in the article is so so illegal. If a landlord did this they could be sued out of existence. As we move into the future smart homes are becoming ubiquitous. It is only natural that they become built into homes including rentals for those that want it.
If a landlord wanted to spy on you there are far less obvious ways to do it (that are also very illegal).
But it's not entirely unwarranted given Amazon's history of their privacy declarations not being 100% reliable. Their track record isn't as bad as some companies, but I wouldn't trust them without an outside review and they're not going to let that happen for a host of reasions.
Agreed, just pointing out the basis of this article is an assumption that amazon won't have thought about drop in when thinking about their other privacy measures for this product.
Readit News
Maybe, just maybe, the landlord is listening. And we better not refuse the device because maybe they'll get the idea that we don't trust them...
I appreciate the poetics of a rent-seeking company targeting landlords.
No, you'll quickly become addicted to the peace of mind and security you feel from using Meth Minder, finding it near impossible to give up. At this point our montly rate increases to $5K/month and you will do anything to ensure your monthly fix. We've secured $100M in VC on our incredibly low churn due to the addictive nature of our product.
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What’s next? Weed detectors? War on drugs seems to be pure profiteering.
The war on drugs is total BS, but so is trashing a place and sickening neighbors just for your own selfish high. There are ways to do things that are respectful of others.
"If you wanted to have sex, you should've checked the tenancy agreement before you signed it."
Edit: this was my attempt at a joke! it's satirical
Can't say I've ever smelled it. Is it very distinct?
That could get really dystopian.
Whenever I hear the term "smart", I associate it with the countless real-life examples of privacy violations (bordering on unconstitutional), security snafus, and the power it gives to authoritarian tendencies in private companies and public institutions.
I won't soon forget this story[0]. It listens to everything, and if it thinks it hears the start of a command it starts doing stuff with what it hears. That detection can have bugs, some of them practically unavoidable (like differentiating between a conversation about a person named Alexa and a command).
Amazon themselves have said that "[voice] data is stored remotely" as opposed to on the device[1]. So it seems likely that most Alexa users have had at least some parts of a conversation in which they did not intend to involve Alexa stored on an Amazon server, and possibly reviewed by some number of employees[2].
I think the strongest thing you can say "demonstrably" about regarding Alexa is that it does not store _all_ your conversations.
0. https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/woman-says-her-amazon-devic...
1. https://privacyinternational.org/news-analysis/2819/mystery-...
2. https://time.com/5568815/amazon-workers-listen-to-alexa/
I'm used to rented properties where you get no control over things like the thermostat (which are all Hive managed) but that's roughly where i draw the line.
In what country is this legal?
I usually have the heater off except when it's below zero outside. I would be really mad if somebody heated my apartment against my will.
This is a great move for Amazon, but I don't really understand the benefit to renters or landlords.
"Luxury" apartments in NYC used to have ipod/iphone docks in the wall the connected to the speaker system. Every single agent talked about this great feature, but it just looked awful. Besides the fact that I'm an Android user, the connector was pre lightning so at some point I'm sure the landlord has to upgrade everyone's wall dock. A feature that only some can use, and fewer will use. Only so they can seem extra fancy to a select crowd.
The point of that antidote is that this Amazon "feature" will likely only be in "luxury" buildings as well. Most landlords don't even allow their rent to be paid online. I doubt they will get "alexa pay my rent" to work reliably.
About half the people I know will not stand have any home spy devices in their home on principal alone, and the other half already have one. Putting this in you're building seems like a way to make half your renter base dismiss you, and redundant for the other half.
I felt like I traveled back to 1990 when I moved to Canada. In Germany I've never paid anything with cheque. We've always had free wire transfers. Online or offline is not visible even to the landlord.
When I found out this doesn't work with Canadian banks I was flabbergasted.
I moved back 10 years ago. Is this still the case in US/CAN?
My next apartment was a condo we rented directly from the owners. We paid by bank transfer.
Then the third place I rented years later after moving across country was managed by a large management firm and they had an online portal with rental payment, maintenance tickets, and all that. We weren't in large building, it was a townhouse, but they had properties all over the region they managed.
I've only rented in America once, but in that case the property management company had their own online system that accepted (slow non-instant) bank transfers or (with a surcharge) credit cards.
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I’m sure the reich likes the nationalism but that sort of flame bait isn’t allowed on HN
This just completely flummoxes me. The US really is a third world nation sometimes.
Here in the Netherlands it is unthinkable to pay your rent in cash. Most people pay their rent via standing order, or for the few people who haven't automated their payments, via direct wire transfer.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
And I don’t know anyone else who has either.
If I were to rent another apartment, I would expect to pay by check.
I think OP might be a renter in NYC / SF where you have smaller landlords that aren't running 300+ unit complexes.
Dead Comment
Dead Comment
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/9/21429635/amazon-keith-alex...
The dude is ceo of a cybersecurity company and has very unique and deep insights into global security threats. He’s definitely someone you would want to have around to advise on security especially as foreign threats are ramping up on the digital front.
Alexa, Google assistant, Siri are demonstrably not listening to your conversations, us in the tech industry should know better than to spread this sort of FUD.
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This is why we should all be very worried about the move towards as-a-service economies.
For most other items, the amount of control that you need really comes down to priorities. Given my use of computers, I buy the hardware and prefer open source applications since there is a large degree of control. When it comes to entertainment (games, music, etc.) rental is fine since they are not all that important. Some product categories is a blend of the two: some books I buy, others I "rent" (rather, borrow through libraries).
As for Alexa for landlords, this may be a case where some laws need revision. Even if it is not used as a surveilance device, it must be classified as such since the potential is there. It doesn't matter whether that potential is used by Amazon, the landlord, or another authorized or unauthorized party.
That’s some high quality journalism.
If a landlord wanted to spy on you there are far less obvious ways to do it (that are also very illegal).