Readit News logoReadit News
Posted by u/bouchardm 6 years ago
Ask HN: My boss ask I take my emails while on vacation
Hi HN !

I recently took on a managerial role / project manager (I manage 2 programmers) at my work. Now that the summer holidays are approaching, my boss asks me, that during my holidays, I take my emails or that I be available to be called (~ 3h week).

He tells me that this is normal and that it comes with the role of manager.

On your side what is the vacancy policy in your company when you are managers ? Have you any advice on how to handle this ?

For the context it is a small business of 6 people.

cjbprime · 6 years ago
This is somewhat cultural: it would not be considered unacceptable in many startups in the US, where I am right now.

But your username and grammar make me wonder whether you're French and in France, are you? If you are, I think it may actually be an illegal request. European attitudes towards work are extremely different to US ones, which are themselves more relaxed than e.g. East Asian.

From https://newatlas.com/right-to-disconnect-after-hours-work-em... :

==

"France, in particular, has been ahead of the world in establishing legal frameworks protecting a person's right to disconnect. Back in 2001 the idea was first floated when the French Supreme Court ruled that employees are under no obligation to bring work home, and as technology progressed the Court continued to update its ruling. In 2004, for example, it was established that it was not misconduct if an employee was not reachable on a smartphone outside of work hours.

The right to disconnect was solidified at the beginning of 2017 with France introducing the El Khomri law, which suggests every employee contract must include a negotiation of obligations required of an employee regarding how connected they are outside of office hours. The law is reasonably vague and doesn't restrict after-hours work communication, but rather obliges organizations to negotiate these terms clearly with prospective employees."

bouchardm · 6 years ago
Haha you almost got me, french yes, france no: Québec Canada :)

I will look up the law to be sure !

ozychhi · 6 years ago
In my opinion, law is a bit irrelevant here. You should know what you want to do, if you don't want to do it then decline and see how it goes; If you feel like doing it accept it. Do not let those small details alter your aspirations, in the end all it matters is what you want to do. You are obviously skilled enough to find another job, so do not be afraid to stand up for yourself.
calyth2018 · 6 years ago
I'm not a lawyer / Je ne suis pas avocat:

https://www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/conges-et-absences/vacances/vacan...

It says you're supposed to be able to take your vacation uninterrupted. You might want to check with them.

olalonde · 6 years ago
I'd say it's a perfectly reasonable request given that you manage over a third of the company. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was a law against it in Québec... worth finding out and informing the CEO if there is.

Is this a matter of principle for you or were you planning to go to some remote are with no Internet? If the latter, you could just explain the situation to your boss and they will probably understand.

andreasduess · 6 years ago
Hi from another Canadian. Here in Ontario it is illegal to ask employees to perform any work-related tasks while on holiday and I am 99.9% sure the same is true in Quebec (we have an office in Montreal). Whether you wish to enforce that is up to you. We actually ask people to unplug and recharge in my company - it makes for better outcomes long term.
smcphile · 6 years ago
I’m in France and I’ve lived here for 30 years. What you’ve written is correct.

However here’s the reality: If your employer dislikes you, they can fire you for some false reason. You then take it to court and you win. You will be awarded some amount, and there’s now a legally defined cap on that amount, which the employer knows before they fire you. The amount is roughly one month’s salary for each year worked at the company. And you don’t get your job back.

Of course not all employers use this strategy for various reasons, but it exists as a possibility, so it has to be taken into account when planning what response is in your best interest.

bobflorian · 6 years ago
This is completely unacceptable. I work for a small company of 9, with 3 programmers (me being one). On vacation we all unplug to the fullest extent. It's all about setting expectations, having redundancy and backups. In fact, the boss hired me so that he could do exactly this, unplug and leave the country to have a solid vacation. I tend to either unplug all the way, or make it impossible to contact me by either being somewhere remote. I haven't come back to a burning fire yet.
mcv · 6 years ago
For every position in the company, there needs to be someone who can fill in if the need arises. You already need that anyway in case someone has a serious accident or something, so you might as well make use of that when people go on vacation.
dathinab · 6 years ago
But especially for manage position this should not be necessary. Most small software companies will do just fine if run for a view weeks without a manager (as long as it doesn't overlap with the start/end of a project).

Also the problem is he is not asked to provide emergency contacts, he's asked to continue to check all his emails. Which for many people will mean they won't be able to get there had completely it of work and as such majorly degrade the vacation.

e40 · 6 years ago
With 3 programmers, I seriously doubt there is a backup for every function.
bobflorian · 6 years ago
It's all about culture. Try to be the agent of change, or change your expectation on what you can achieve in your current role.
setr · 6 years ago
From the corporate perspective, the problem is that work should not, and cannot, shutdown, because you've gone on vacation. In a company of sufficient resource, you would normally be able to offload the management onto someone else for the duration (eg your #2, or a peer)

But this is not your case -- you have only 6 people -- there's no one to offload onto. The size of your group is such that everyone is presumably vital to the operation, and cannot be removed without surgical intervention.

So you're in the state of having to do one of two things:

1. Solve the problem for the company, and somehow institute policies, tasks and responsibilities to allow your resources to survive on their own for some time (you need to eventually do this anyways so you can work on higher level things)

2. Work minimum hours during vacation to make sure nothing blows up

3. Work no hours during vacation, and if it blows up, it blows up (and accept the backlash for it)

The key thing is that having such responsibilities means that you can't leave things in a broken state -- if that means you have to work extra hours to keep things working, so be it.

ljm · 6 years ago
The only reasonable option there is the third one, and the company itself suffers the backlash for running on such a high bus factor.

Vacation is for vacation, not work. If you're asked to stay on call then you better be paid for it. After all, you're not one of the founders, you're an employee.

If a business can't survive with a week or two of planning or delegation then it has other problems. Eating vacation is just a cop out.

setr · 6 years ago
However, you're not a low-level resource; especially in a 6-man company. Being given responsibility for your team, you are responsible for it -- good or bad. It's your duty to ensure your team is capable of limited autonomy (if they were believed to be capable of full autonomy, your role as manager is redundant, and the hierarchy shouldn't have been created in the first place)

If you haven't yet created the necessary environment that you can just step out for some time, then working beyond working-hours is the inevitable result.

If you've noted and escalated the problem -- that this environment cannot be setup without whatever additional resources/support -- then that's your safety net against any backlash. (It's now your bosses fault if he's aware and does nothing). But if you haven't... the onus remains on you

hazz99 · 6 years ago
I think the second option is entirely reasonable, so long as you are compensated for it and the responsibility was well-communicated in advance (ideally before taking the job, or during onboarding).
seasoup · 6 years ago
This is not quality thinking. Without adequate time to destress and unplug, employees are likely to leave and if an employee leaves, the company will lose far more than someone’s vacation time. Leave employees alone while on vacation unless absolutely necessary.
quickthrower2 · 6 years ago
Vital is a strong word. If he quit they’d find a workaround until they hire a replacement. Use that same workaround while he is on holiday.

Probably delegate some of the short term responsibilities to one of the devs.

brandon272 · 6 years ago
Two things:

1) If there is a legitimate concern that some crisis will arise and be heavily exacerbated by you not being at work during vacation, that is an operational problem in the organization that needs to be dealt with. Who is your backup? What would happen if you suffered a medical emergency and were not in the office for a month? How would they deal with that?

2) It sounds like your expectations and values do not align with your manager's expectations and values. This is something that you should resolve with your manager or consider finding work elsewhere.

The intent of vacation is for you to recharge mentally and emotionally. A vacation where you are still plugged in, still on call, still expected to work, is not much of a vacation.

sloaken · 6 years ago
I would track how much time you spent doing it, and deduct it from your vacation hours. Instead of charging 40 hours, I would charge 37 to vacation.

That said I check my email on vacation, typically redirect it to someone to address. I would say I spend 10 to 20 mins a day doing this while eating breakfast or in the library (if you know what I mean).

jameshush · 6 years ago
I agree this is how it SHOULD work, but it really depends on the company culture. Ideally you set up systems in advance where they don’t have to reach you.
pestaa · 6 years ago
It's strange because I'm normally a law abiding citizen, but still totally going to steal that library phrasing.
SamWhited · 6 years ago
With the disclaimer that I am not a manager: this is somewhat normal at smaller companies I've been at, but it is still completely unreasonable to ask you to check emails while on vacation, even at a 6 person company. I have always taken a hard line on this as a non-manager, and so should you. If they give you actual vacation hours that they have to pay out instead of nonsense like the "unlimited vacation" policies a lot of companies have (meaning they don't have to pay out and can rely on most employees feeling pressured to come back quicker), you have the choice of accepting their terms but only if you deduct the time from your vacation hours taken (although trust me, for your own mental health, take the time and don't think about work at all).
nepthar · 6 years ago
Re: "nonsense like "unlimited vacation" - I've worked at a few companies with unlimited vacation and felt no such pressure. I not only took more vacation than the typical American two weeks, but it gave me flexibility to take advantage of things like last minute ski/camping trips. This really allowed me to put my life first and be a relaxed productive member of the company.

I gather that some folks do feel this kind of pressure, but maybe the answer is to help them overcome that feeling, rather than call the policy nonsense.

SamWhited · 6 years ago
Lucky you. It's not just a feeling though (although there is that). My bosses have basically all constantly asked me when I was coming back if I tried to take more than a few days, and with no chance to earn vacation time there was no chance of it being paid out when I left.
mjayhn · 6 years ago
Didn't you tell me recently that you started to get really into backwoods camping? It's unfortunate that signal is so bad in the woods, eh?
em-bee · 6 years ago
not to mention the lack of electricity, and the weight limit on my backpack. and the kids needing constant attention. we'll also be kayaking from place to place, through some wild streams. the only electronics i'll be able to take is my waterproof camera.
blaser-waffle · 6 years ago
Backwoods camping in Canada? Good luck getting any sort of signal out through all of those mosquitoes (and ticks, if you're in Eastern Canada).
munchbunny · 6 years ago
That's normal, sort of. For context: I've worked in a 6 person startup as a founder, a 60 person startup as management, and right now a tech giant as a peon. My policy for myself and anyone under me has been the same in all three cases, and it's been consistent with my colleagues in all three cases. (Exception: there are 100%, definitely, guaranteed, examples of unreasonable managers at the tech giant I work for, I'm just not personally aware of them.)

1. In general, talk to and designate someone to cover for you for the responsibilities that have to continue while you're on vacation. If that's not possible, see #2.

2. In general, don't answer emails. Activate your out-of-office auto-response feature. Set a protocol with your colleagues for how to flag urgent issues in email, such as an [Urgent] tag, and mention it in your out-of-office auto-response. If you're not going off the grid, then once a day check for urgent emails and respond to those. Ignore the rest. If you're going off the grid, make sure everyone knows you're off the grid (mention it in your out-of-office auto-response).

3. If you anticipate potential emergencies where you have to be involved, then set a protocol for how to contact you quickly in case of emergency, and bring your work with you just in case everything catches on fire. I always used "email me, call me on my Google Voice number, leave a message if I don't pick up, text me, and message me in company chat, in that order."

The key point is that sometimes it's urgent and the bus number is 1, and you're that one person, and in those cases it makes sense to ask that you be reachable. In all other cases your vacation should be respected and you should be left alone.

jameshush · 6 years ago
This is all great advice. My company uses slack instead of email, what’s helped me is silencing slack but telling people they can call me if there’s a fire. Before then I set up all the systems I can to prevent anything from slipping through, so I haven’t been called on vacation yet.

It’s all about setting expectations and delegating responsibility in advance.

foogazi · 6 years ago
Having a backup plan helps.

Also making full use of the available tools:

- calendar OOO messages

- automated email replies

- slack status messages showing OOO dates