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Posted by u/semisight 6 years ago
Ask HN: Has any progress been made on large format E-ink displays?
Context upfront: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13771203

I'd really like to have a decent (let's say >13") display to hang on a wall in my room and display weather, my todo list, etc. It doesn't necessarily have to be E-ink proper, but I like the idea of having something that doesn't emit its own light. More like an electronic whiteboard.

Alternatives include something like the Vestaboard, which is not cheap, and probably fairly noisy.

Are there products I'm missing here?

GekkePrutser · 6 years ago
If you're interesting in building your own you can get a 12" one from waveshare: https://www.waveshare.com/product/displays/e-paper/12.48inch...

This is the black/white one, they do a black/white/red one too. But beware, they take really long to refresh (the red color takes several refreshes to appear). And the one with red is on backorder till June.

It can be powered by a raspberry pi (or ESP32 or Arduino) and is (much) cheaper than the ereader options of the same size: Only about $170.

PS Beware: You can't simply start up a user interface like X-Windows on it. You have to write software to display on it. The display is addressed in 4 separate sections so it's not super easy.

agys · 6 years ago
I did some experiment with the bare version of this display, both with the b/w and the b/w/r displays. The black and white one can be partially updated (window mode) and is a bit faster. The four sections mentioned above don't have exactly the same size: two sections have slightly fewer pixels in width. I used a STM32 controller which came with the display; it had just enough memory to fit a whole image. It was interesting to write some 'generative' code for it...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6-h1TSBG6x/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B3o6RirB5iU/

bluedays · 6 years ago
Neat. I was looking for one of these. Wanted to make a KindleBerry Pi to do some writing/coding in a destruction free environment.
tinkertamper · 6 years ago
I wanted this for some time, an eink coding experience for outdoor use and good battery life. Do you know of any active projects online where people have got this working?
lolryan · 6 years ago
The technology is there, but E Ink (the company) is steadfastly refusing to lower prices because they believe there's a market for this. Now go to Alibaba and find that you can get a flexible, full-color OLED sheet for the same price as a given size E Ink panel.

Go on eBay and buy an older NOOK device (they all ran Android) for $20, tape it to your wall, and point at your web page of choice.

TaylorAlexander · 6 years ago
A great example of patents strangling innovation. If anyone has more concrete details on the way this company is holding back this technology I’d love to read details. Thanks!
amenod · 6 years ago
The irony is that they are probably limiting their profit too. With lower prices the number of applications would skyrocket and they would get much bigger income.

The only reason I can think of is that scaling the production would be difficult for some reason?

Godel_unicode · 6 years ago
The pertinent patents were filed in '96, so it's almost certainly not that?
okatzzz2 · 6 years ago
What makes you think it’s to do with patents? Maybe there’s just insufficient demand.
crimsonalucard · 6 years ago
I don't think the answer is that simple. Would the initial innovation even be worth pursuing if not the existence of patents? Hard to say. At the very lease we do know that in a decade there's no more strangleholds.
Thorentis · 6 years ago
This is why I believe patent laws (and copyright laws, but that's another story) are completely broken. Innovation is being stilfled because the world is addicted to profit, and not just profit, but easy profit. Gone are the days when making a superior product was the only way to get ahead, no. Companies want exclusive monopolies over anything and everything they create. An engineer just has to draw squiggle on a whiteboard and that becomes the IP of the company they work for. The patent system needs a complete overhaul.
luka-birsa · 6 years ago
They would drop the price if there was a large enough volume play behind it. Do you think they don't want to make money?
christopoulos · 6 years ago
Do you have an example of such OLED sheet that you can recommend?
ipsum2 · 6 years ago
Have you looked at https://remarkable.com/? It's a little smaller, 12" diagonal.

Dasung sells a 13.3" e-ink monitor: https://www.amazon.com/Dasung-Paperlike-13-3-E-Ink-Monitor/d...

dheera · 6 years ago
Can anyone comment on the difficulty (for a hacker) of using Remarkable with Kindle books? I have a Kindle already, if that makes a difference in generating DRM-free files of content I already purchased reading rights to.
frosted-flakes · 6 years ago
It is trivial to convert DRM'd Kindle e-books you own into epub or other formats. Check out Calibre and the Apprentice Alf plugin.

https://calibre-ebook.com/

https://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/

enricozb · 6 years ago
I have never been able to get EPUBs to reliably work on remarkable. My solution is to convert them to PDFs.
varenc · 6 years ago
I love reading on my remarkable but using it with Kindle books has been a pain. You can break the Kindle DRM but it’s cumbersome.

Though my main pain point is that you lose the book position syncing you get with the Kindle hardware/apps.

PatentlyDC123 · 6 years ago
The Boox Max 3 seems to be a better option for the OP. [0]. It has a 13.3" screen, runs Android, and also functions as a monitor for your computer. The refresh rate doesn't seem to be the best, but it looks like a pretty good solution given what is out there so far. I've been looking at it for a while, but I haven't bought one yet. I would love to hear opinions by people who have one. [0] - https://www.boox.com/max3-3/
droidno9 · 6 years ago
I would buy the reMarkable in a heartbeat if it was indeed a 12" display. Alas, the screen is only 10.3".
chacha2 · 6 years ago
Does 2 inches really make that much difference?
JohnJamesRambo · 6 years ago
Looks like I can get the Dasung for $1200 used...

It’s a pity because I’d love that thing to read the web on actually.

ipsum2 · 6 years ago
They might be out due to COVID-related supply issues, I remember seeing them in stock a few months ago. You might have better luck ordering from the company directly.
mortenjorck · 6 years ago
I've long wondered why electrophoretic displays (the generic term for E Ink, which is a proprietary name) continue to be exponentially more expensive at sizes larger than a Kindle while other technologies like OLED have become vastly more affordable in larger formats over a similar timeframe.

The best I can tell is that there just hasn't been an investment in scaling up fabrication anywhere near what the likes of LG (mostly LG, actually) has done with >40" OLED panels. Presumably the demand isn't there yet, and so larger-format electrophoretics remain the product of low-volume, high-cost manufacturing processes.

ScottFree · 6 years ago
That's because OLED has 45 years of active development behind it's belt. EInk only has 24.

[0] The first OLED patent was filed in 1975 and the first practical OLED was created in 1987. Only in the past 5 years (2015-2020) has OLED been used widely enough to bring the price down.

[1] The first patent for an microencapsulated electrophoretic display was filed in 1996. The earliest practical EINK screen I could find was the Sony Librié in 2004.

lostgame · 6 years ago
But e-ink technology isn’t ready to go out of the gate - the refresh rate is still a significant issue that makes it virtually purposeless for much beyond reading. If it is at this point, it just didn’t happen quickly enough.
nitrogen · 6 years ago
I'd like a very large e-ink display for artwork, signage, and metrics. It doesn't have to refresh more than once every several seconds.
akavel · 6 years ago
How about ClearInk? https://youtu.be/kE_byDwLjxk?t=34

Also, ye olde e-Ink has plans for Q3 2020: https://youtu.be/vOTid3I-4EI

arendtio · 6 years ago
A few years ago those Pixel Qi displays had quite acceptable refresh rates (the Notion Ink Adam had one of those displays):

https://youtu.be/193w4JLm5hE?t=286

luka-birsa · 6 years ago
Large format E-ink displays are currently used primarily in digital signage scenarios (outdoor advertising, passenger information systems,...) - examples are Soofa (http://www.soofa.co/) and Mercury Innovation (https://www.mercuryinnovation.com.au/digital-bus-stop).

The largest size currently available is 42" and it is used in outdoor and indoor scenarios. Indoor use is for education purposes as a digital whiteboard - see Quilla (https://www.engadget.com/2017-01-03-quirklogic-s-quilla-is-a...).

None of these are especially applicable for home use due to the price tag (just to be clear, the display itself is very expensive). What you could do is use Sonys larger format eInk tablet, use Remarkable EInk tablet or hack your own solution from an older Kobo reader.

We're offering solutions somewhere in the middle - traditionally we were focused on SME, where our devices are being used as universal digital signage (http://www.visionect.com) or tailored for room booking (http://getjoan.com), so a bit pricy for home use. But we just launched a 6" device called Joan Home (https://getjoan.com/shop/joan-home/) that syncs to your calendar and are looking to expand it with new functionality in the future. We're thing of integrations with home automation, pomodoro timer, IFTTT, etc...

Comments on the Joan Home are welcome - as we're actively thinking of developing this into a more feature rich product in next two months.

Operyl · 6 years ago
What a cool product for meeting rooms! But .. and maybe I'm just not the target audience, there's no way in any universe am I paying 250 bucks for a "do not disturb sign" in my house. That's just way too expensive.
carstenhag · 6 years ago
Same here. My girlfriend just listens whether I'm talking to someone or not. If it's unclear, she taps on the door.

With kids I bet it's more difficult, but I don't think this technological solution can solve a human/social problem.

luka-birsa · 6 years ago
Yup. We did get a lot of that with our meeting room solution. We'll be expanding the feature set over the near future, to entice home users to go for something like this even with a price tag of 250.
Matrixik · 6 years ago
This is "special offer" for home usage (in Europe for 249€ excluding VAT). Also "Comes with a FREE 30-day Joan Home plan trial" that I can't find anywhere on they page how much it cost or what is providing. Does it even work without this plan?

Jean-6 that's the same device plus front light cost 549€ (without VAT) and monthly premium plans.

https://getjoan.com/shop/joan-6-1/

https://getjoan.com/pricing-plans/

yayr · 6 years ago
I‘d love to see such a device based on Android with 5 years update guarantee. Users could easily use it for any of your envisioned use cases and you could focus on your hardware competency
luka-birsa · 6 years ago
Android will never work in a cordless scenario. We have device with 3 months autonomy and the next gen device currently nearing production drastically increases that as well. We've evaluated everything embedded, especially Android (love the ecosystem), but there is literary no tech that would give you full operation and full wifi connectivity, months of autonomy off a standard phone battery and Android. We had to develop a lot of proprietary stuff...
ThrowawayR2 · 6 years ago
32" e-ink panels exist but are still too expensive to be practical for home use: https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2˝-monochrome-epaper-di...

The only commercial product I know of that uses it is from Visionect but it's a meant for digital signage rather than as a computer display: https://www.visionect.com/product/place-and-play-32/. It's less expensive than their earlier system but still around $2500.

pplante · 6 years ago
I thought that might be an awesome splurge someday, then I saw the refresh rate of 750ms. Nearly an entire second to see a screen repaint every time I move a cursor.
tekknolagi · 6 years ago
For a smaller size, apparently the displays made by Dasung are pretty nice.
robin_reala · 6 years ago
Not just 32”, Eink sell a 42” monochrome panel[1] and a 32” colour panel[2] too.

[1] https://shopkits.eink.com/product/42%cb%9d-monochrome-epaper...

[2] https://shopkits.eink.com/product/31-2%cb%9d-color-epaper-di...

solarkraft · 6 years ago
This isn't perfectly within your search criteria, but you may still find it interesting. Just today I researched the available solutions for driving a ED097OC1 (compatible) display, which was built into the Kindle DX, has a diagonale of 9,7" and can be obtained for about 30€ [0].

There are some projects dedicated to driving the screen with an ESP32, which already has WiFi built in, has good low power modes and is pretty cheap as well [1] [2].

There's also a project driving e-ink displays with an stm32 [3] and one to do it with an FPGA [4].

Beyond 13" things get really expensive and hard to find - best I can do is 12,48" for 150€ [5].

[0]: https://aliexpress.com/item/32983492389.html

[1]: https://github.com/dqydj/PaperBack_EPaper_Display

[2]: https://hackaday.io/project/168193-976-e-paper-controller-ki...

[3]: https://hackaday.io/project/11537-nekocal-an-e-ink-calendar

[4]: https://github.com/vd-rd/project_rorschach

[5]: https://aliexpress.com/i/32929629021.html

solarkraft · 6 years ago
So that's the current state of available stuff - The ESP32 stuff is quite interesting because it's all you need for an IoT module and in the right version it even has enough RAM for full screen updates.

I don't know specifics about the voltage conversion yet (these screens need about -20V - 20V), but I reckon that if you're really frugal you could make a battery powered wall display for under 60€ with this stuff - and that's part 1 of what I'm thinking of doing.

Part 2 would be to stick in a Pine64 SOPINE System On a Module [6], put on a capacitive touch layer [7] and run a mainline Linux with KOReader and maybe even a Wayland compositor to be able to run any Linux app (the high contrast GTK theme seems perfect for this application).

All hopefully for under 200€, which is a lot less expensive than other e-readers if that size and a whole lot cooler.

Any tips?

[6]: https://store.pine64.org/?product=sopine-a64

[7]: https://aliexpress.com/item/32984143128.html

[8]: https://github.com/koreader/koreader

robocat · 6 years ago
I suspect you would be interested in this:

https://hackaday.com/2016/01/19/a-digital-canvas-thats-hard-...

It matches the LCD lighting to the ambient light, so that it doesn’t have that “glowing screen” look, but instead looks like a flat picture.

Something else irrelevant to your question, but trés cool: https://hackaday.com/2019/08/17/great-artificial-daylight-vi...