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Posted by u/coloneltcb 6 years ago
Ask HN: What are unintended consequences of new tech you've noticed?
3 times in SF this week, a Cruise AV has driven past my car and triggered my automatic windshield wipers, even though it was totally dry out. (probably the LIDAR interacting with wipers' infrared sensors).

Got me thinking about what unintended consequences can spring up because of new technologies. Anyone have other examples, current or historic?

mattlondon · 6 years ago
My favourite one that surprised me and continues to surprise people: kids that have grown up with smartphones and iPads from birth are computer illiterate.

People see their 5 year old using an iPad and the knee-jerk cliche thought/assumption us the classic "oh wow these kids just get technology!" (recall all the "I need my kid to program the VCR" type stuff from the 80s/90s - it is the same thing of older people assuming current children innately understand the current tech)

Yet while today's kids may know how to stab at a screen to get videos of Peppa pig to play, there are people starting to come through to their mid and late teens who don't know how to use a mouse and keyboard with any level of dexterity, or don't know what a "file" is or what folders/directories are etc because that is all hidden away on an iPad. As a result they struggle to do even the most basic tasks that we all take for granted... and they don't get taught because everyone thinks they already know it having grown up with an iPad in their pram.

I chuckle to my self sometimes when I see a toddler walk up to a TV or video advert and try touching it a few times, then walk away confused because what they thought was a touch screen isn't doing anything when they touch it.

Fascinating.

Joeri · 6 years ago
I chuckle to my self sometimes when I see a toddler walk up to a TV or video advert and try touching it a few times, then walk away confused because what they thought was a touch screen isn't doing anything when they touch it.

I also chuckled when my 2yo did this, but stopped chuckling when he actually got it to switch channels. Turns out our tv has small near invisible touch controls beneath the screen and we just didn’t know.

of course, he wouldn’t stop messing with the tv after discovering this, and found a control combination (undocumented) to put the tv in demo mode: superbright, oversaturated and automatically forgetting its settings after a while.

I was not amused.

julienreszka · 6 years ago
Hilarious
apostacy · 6 years ago
Some related threads from a few weeks ago about rising computer illiteracy among kids:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21241535

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21237540

I really have noticed that elderly people who have no computer experience have a better grasp of computing concepts than most kids. They understand physical media stores sounds and pictures, so it easy to explain that pictures and music lives on their sd card, like a phonograph or roll of film, except much more. They understand that you need an internet connection to communicate, like how you need your phone hooked up to make phone calls, since they have all had to deal with the phone company to get their phone working. And it is really simple to explain that a wifi router is just extending the internet into your living room. They understand sending an email and attaching a picture to it (use the paper clip and pick the picture). I was even able to explain the file system to someone, by saying that instead of just printing out his letters, he can store them inside a "folder", and print them out later as many times as he wants.

These concepts seem utterly lost on so many kids. They will send you a series of screenshots of a website instead of just sending the url. They are constantly losing data. They can not tell you where their data "lives"; whether it is in their iCloud or their phone or whatever.

It's not that horrible, but I am disappointed because I honestly thought that by now we would all be more computer literate. Isn't this what schools are supposed to teach?

mchaver · 6 years ago
It seems like when you grow up with some important but finicky technology, it tends to sow a certain amount of knowledge in the populace. I notice there tends to be a lot more car and mechanic knowledge in the older generations than say those in their early 40s and below. To drive a car it seems like you had to do a lot more troubleshooting on your own (didn't have a mobile phone to call the car shop). Same thing for those that were young in the 1990s and had a computer.
kkarakk · 6 years ago
Yup, my bro in law panicked when he realized this - even school assignments are on a touch and record based interface so no interaction- and got my nephew a low powered windows 10 machine(dual core i3 from 2013 so the thing CHUGS) and gives him "assignments" to make something creative with 3D printing or just type a story out in MS Word

The idea is to get him comfortable with older computing paradigms and make him appreciate "new" software via exposing him to low powered hardware and how difficult it is to use comparatively.

He tried doing a raspberry pi computer for the kid but said it was too underpowered to do anything meaningful+setup was a hassle

siruncledrew · 6 years ago
The funniest related instance I've encountered was:

> at work with a 20 year old intern in the stock room

> clock on the wall above the door

> intern asks "Hey, do you know what time it is?"

> I look at the clock and say, "5:30pm"

> intern says "Thanks, my phone was dead"

I was in shock for the rest of the day a person less than a decade younger than me doesn't know how to read an analog clock.

banmeagaindan2 · 6 years ago
Somebody with a wristwatch can develop a superior sense of timing when working. It is quick and distraction free.

Wristwatches are underrated. In the trades a $20 watch could pay you $x000 a year if it saved some minutes each day.

Terretta · 6 years ago
Not sure if this is different from growing up mechanically illiterate: a whole new generation growing up not knowing what a spark plug or timing belt is.

Engines are finally entering their appliance phase, just in time to be replaced by electric motors.

It’s okay for computers to become appliances too.

Fire-Dragon-DoL · 6 years ago
Not exactly. Being able to use a keyboard or a mouse is different. By comparison, is not being able to drive a car.

I sure know nothing about engine but can drive.

A computer illiterate needs the minimum of being able to maneuver it.

Files might disappear, they are an abstraction after all.

roarl · 6 years ago
My mother is a perfect example of this. She is fascinated that my 6-year old nephew just gets the iPad, he's unafraid to use it and can do so much! At his age I edited the startup of MS-DOS to free up RAM for playing games. Times have changed indeed.
UweSchmidt · 6 years ago
I'm curious if, and exactly when, this might lead to sweet consulting gigs for the then elderly, computer savvy generation that I consider myself part of, similar to old COBOL devs called back from retirement.

It seems that the ressources for people who actually want to learn computers are excellent and are getting better all the time, so maybe there will always be enough well trained people coming up to solve all problems.

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tracer4201 · 6 years ago
Not a parent yet, but I certainly don’t plan on giving my kid a touch device... certainly not with internet access. I grew up using the internet as a 90s kid. Today, the internet is even more messed up.
microtonal · 6 years ago
Our 5yo has an iPod Touch to play music. But she also has a Linux PC (she enjoys typing things and playing gcompris). But probably our best purchase is a Micro:Bit. Her programs are still simple, but it’s clear how much she enjoys being creative and that she can make the Micro:Bit do what she wants.

We are not forcing her to use tech in any way. The Linux PC and Micro:Bit are just there and it’s up to her own curiosity to explore them when she feels like it.

I think the problem is that TV and iPads are convenient for parents. You can put your kid behind one, and they’ll occupy themselves for hours. Whereas with real computers, Micro:Bits, or even Lego, you have to help them understand.

marpstar · 6 years ago
My kids (9 and 6) started with touch devices but are increasingly preferring an actual PC. I just bought a Dell G3 gaming laptop (in addition to the Lenovo PC we already owned) so that I didn't have to give up my MacBook every time they wants to play Garry's Mod.

For first-person "builder" games (current favorite is "Scrap Mechanic") WASD+mouse-look is a lot easier for them than tapping and dragging on a touch screen. Also: larger displays.

Forget mouse+keyboard dexterity...most other kids don't seem to even know about the Esc, Enter, Space, and Shift keys.

d21d3q · 6 years ago
> I chuckle to my self sometimes when I see a toddler walk up to a TV or video advert and try touching it a few times, then walk away confused because what they thought was a touch screen isn't doing anything when they touch it.

I've seen in shopping mall little girl standing in front of aquarium, trying to move around fishes with her finger...

Buldak · 6 years ago
I see this observation on HN pretty often, but I'm not sure I'm convinced. Do later generations know fewer things, or just different things?
diffeomorphism · 6 years ago
That seems like the wrong question.

The topic was computer literacy and knowing different, non-computer things is irrelevant and knowing stuff about Fortnite, while computer-related, is not literacy.

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api · 6 years ago
Same thing happened with cars. Nobody knows how to work on them anymore because they became easier to use and more reliable.
Fire-Dragon-DoL · 6 years ago
Good, looks like training my 1 year old to use a controller instead of a tablet was a good idea LOL

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unlinked_dll · 6 years ago
Internet usage starts with users querying information they want, and services learning/adapting to deliver information in a format/context based on their activity. This has created some stellar search tools, a personalized network of services and communities available to people, and made the internet a paradise for new content from all over the world.

Despite that all the information in the world is available to us, we only seek out what we want to see/hear/read and then get fed new information based on those queries. It doesn't lead to free exchange of ideas and values, it has created polarized societies where we are digitally segregated by our own sense of identity and community.

People talk a lot about the political side of this, the "echo chambers" online. But I think it's worse than that. We see racial segregation on Twitter, feedback loops of content on YouTube that reinforce themselves, news outlets tailoring their content for users that reach them from their own site and optimizing for usage metrics that feed usage metrics... and we all are in love with it.

It reminds me of Farenheit 451 in the sense that this almost-dystopia wasn't created by some fascist dictator or single-party state; we built it ourselves. We wanted it.

That's not to say there isn't beauty on the internet, and we live in an era where more people talk and share and love and fight more than ever with language and ideas. It's just a strange departure from where most futurists thought we were going to be.

godelski · 6 years ago
> We wanted it.

I'm not entirely convinced this is accurate. It definitely is in part, but not in whole. We wanted these better search tools and we like recommendation systems. But I know a lot of people are frustrated with algorithms like YouTube's recommendation system trapping them. (e.g. watch one Joe Rogan video and you get firehosed with more JRE videos). The thing is we also don't notice that this reinforcement also pushes us away from one another. But the solution sounds very similar to the solution to the complaint. People are complaining about being walled in by the algorithm (I for one am one of those people). People are asking for new suggestions. As in new topics, not just other youtubers doing the same thing. I think the difference is that it has become so obvious now that we're noticing and saying "wait, that'd too far."

pacala · 6 years ago
What is the alternative? Our brains simply cannot cope with an endless sea of fresh faces, each of them requiring an acuqaintance effort, only to disappear in the mass of unfamiliar faces within minutes. The known-host / fresh-guest model lessens the burden, as the host becomes a known quantity after a while. With their temperament, leanings, quirks, idiosyncrasies and all that. Conversely, I've observed myself following a certain guest through a string of hosts, which ended up working well as a host discovery mechanism, better than browsing through random youtube recommendations. Note to self: patent this.
zonidjan · 6 years ago
I would love, so much, for Youtube to just stop targeting recommendations. At least then I'd see new things once in a while...
buboard · 6 years ago
Things like my twitter feed are curated though and I selected the people who curate my stuff. So if it was some kind of echo chamber, i totally willingly chose to do that.
SpicyLemonZest · 6 years ago
But does Youtube's recommendation system trap you any more than old media? I remember having much the same feeling with library books. I've read 10 pages of this author's thoughts and I really want to pick up something else - but I don't have time to go to the library this week, so I guess I'm stuck reading the other 290 pages.
degenerate · 6 years ago
It's almost as if... shiny new technology can't solve the human condition. Have you tried turning it off, and on again?
traverseda · 6 years ago
I mean we've had the technology to solve the human condition since what, the 40s?

Dead Comment

fouc · 6 years ago
I saw an interesting argument that we've always had the so called filter bubbles before the internet, it's only more noticeable NOW, because of public spaces like twitter.
anorakoverflow · 6 years ago
There’s a classic theory in communication science by the German researcher Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann called the “spiral of silence”[1]. It basically says that people have an idea of the general public opinion on a topic, and in case their own opinion differs too much, they will stay silent in order not to be excluded from the group. This was classically seen with the negative result that the publicly acceptable opinion may not be the same as the majority opinion, as more and more people stay silent in a kind of spiral.

What we’re seeing today in online spaces is the possibility of people connecting online, forming their own bubbles of people with their own spirals – it has become much easier to sidestep the “general” spiral of silence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_of_silence

abtinf · 6 years ago
> It doesn't lead to free exchange of ideas and values, it has created polarized societies

Technology created polarized society? Before internet search, we were better educated and understood each other better?

ltbarcly3 · 6 years ago
Newspapers were at least, historically at least in the 20th century, were expected to inform and keep a separation between opinion and news. They clearly had a political slant, but they couldn't just ignore facts that they found inconvenient, or only mention them in hit pieces meant to discredit them. Exceptions to this, like Yellow Journalism and Hearst's use of his papers for personal and political ends were at least considered failures of journalism in hindsight.

In the Soviet Union they kept a tight control on the media, and Pravda was controlled by the ruling party to amplify it's message as a tool of propaganda. It would ignore inconvenient facts and stories based on their propaganda value, or if something inconvenient was too well known to ignore it would mention it only to discredit it.

Today many people get most of their news from sites like Breitbart or RawStory. Doing this is voluntarily signing up for Pravda like propaganda. Yes, we have a free society and you aren't restricted to a single source of news like Pravda, but if people intentionally and voluntarily limit themselves to a site that is manipulating stories in the same way as Pravda and for the same motivations, we just have two groups of oppositely propagandized people, and of course that will increase polarization. There is no expectation that these sites would uphold journalistic standards, be generally honest beyond when it is convenient, and their bias is considered a feature.

platz · 6 years ago
Wanting information to be free forced companies to rely on advertising and to spy on us.
imoverclocked · 6 years ago
Noise.

Auditory: I can't tell you how accustomed to hearing stuff constantly everyone is. Cars (even just the tires on a busy street), Air Handling, Refrigerators, Beeping timers (ovens/microwaves/calendar reminders).

Visual: Web notifications, web advertisements, billboards, "news," spam phone calls/texts.

Social: Many people have an expectation that sending a message entitles them to an immediate response. In the age of quick answers from Google, people often forget about slowing down for the speed of thought.

Mental: We (humans) can only make so many decisions in a day yet we are overwhelmed with false dichotomies constantly in order to choose one or the other of basically the same thing.

godelski · 6 years ago
> Visual

Or just the light pollution. I definitely think this has an affect on people. I used to live in AZ for awhile and the nights were so beautiful. I'd spend hours looking at the night sky. Now I'm in the PNW and almost never look up (something I've done pretty much my whole life). I'd think light pollution has similar effects as cloudy skies. I used to do some of my most creative thinking late at night staring at the stars. But maybe that's just a change in me. Maybe both.

mauli · 6 years ago
I came across more bird scare devices [0] lately and most are at ~19-23kHz at -20~30dB (personal measures, device ranges differ). I can hear them and it hurts. Fortunarely they are mainly only deployed near entrances and do not have a broad field of effect. Would be interesting to know how many people do not hear this and feel kinda weird/sick while standing at those places for a longer period of time.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_scarer#Ultrasonic_scare...

jackcodes · 6 years ago
I’d run across these all over Tokyo, practically unavoidable on most walks. The worst ones were when you’d be queuing for a ramen for upwards of 30 minutes but you’d be unable to do anything about it.
Aeolun · 6 years ago
> Social: Many people have an expectation that sending a message entitles them to an immediate response.

This one honestly bothers me the most. “But I sent you a message! You didn’t respond, you could have been dead in a ditch!”.

Or, you know, I didn’t look at my messages for a few days. If you were worried you could have called any time.

gorgoiler · 6 years ago
Journey time calculations in Google maps, Uber etc. mean no one I know is ever on time.

If you need to be somewhere at 8:30 and the journey “takes 17 minutes”, one psychologically sets 8:13 as the deadline for leaving the house. You pick up your keys at 8:13, actually leave a few minutes later, hit traffic or take a wrong turn or two, and end up crossing the threshold at your destination fifteen minutes late.

It’s no big deal and quite a grumpy old man thing to say, and I also don’t know if tech is the root cause, but squeezing travel into unrealistically small and algorithmically created windows of time has killed most people’s sense of punctuality, including mine if I’m not careful.

cheschire · 6 years ago
Yeah I wish there was a "door-to-door" buffer that was enabled by default. I don't think a lot of people are ever taught the concept of backwards planning.
lordnacho · 6 years ago
I'd guess it isn't because of specific services like Google, but the fact that you can now say "I'll be 5 mins late" while you're on the way. People used to not be contactable until the appointed time, now it feels like you're already there with them.
jaclaz · 6 years ago
And this gets us back to the classic xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/612/

pbosko · 6 years ago
Google's estimation for my country is always less than what is achievable if you stick to the speed limit. I guess they calculate it based on other drivers.
onion2k · 6 years ago
In practical terms speeding actually makes very little difference to your journey time.

Eg if you have a 100 mile drive on a 70mph road and you drive the entire way at 85mph your reward is saving about 10 minutes on a 1.5 hour trip.

The downside risk is getting charged for speeding and being delayed for much more than 10 minutes.

I've never though the cost/benefit shows it to be particularly worthwhile.

pmjordan · 6 years ago
For Austria at least, their car travel estimates are eerily accurate in my experience, including accounting for normal levels of traffic for that time of day/week. Traffic jams mess with it to some extent of course, as they appear and disperse relatively suddenly. And no, I don’t speed.

Their bike estimates are consistently wildly optimistic however. If it’s an easy route and I pedal flat out with no traffic and without hitting any red lights, I can get close to the estimated time.

OK, I don’t have a road racing bike or e-bike, and there are people who are more athletic than I am, but I’d say I’m fitter than the median. Their model seems to assume around 25km/h average speed, which isn’t really sustainable (Or safe) in everyday cycling with other road users about.

alecco · 6 years ago
I recently rushed to catch public transport earlier than the one in the Google Maps trip and now all trips estimate my walking time as running time.
kkarakk · 6 years ago
It does. Speed limit in my hometown is 30km/h but google always estimates it based on 60km/h that people actually go at.
wodenokoto · 6 years ago
Google also bikes a bicycle exceedingly fast in cities. Sometimes you have to double the estimate for it to be realistic.
jkoudys · 6 years ago
The plus side is that I can kill time on my phone while I wait for late people to arrive.
winrid · 6 years ago
Google should calibrate it by how long it takes to leave your house :)
tlrobinson · 6 years ago
Or cross reference calendar events with directions lookups and actual arrival times, and if you’re consistently late then overestimate the time.
busterarm · 6 years ago
My Uber estimates usually end up being half as long as the trip actually takes in NYC anyway.
basq · 6 years ago
Additionally those time estimates aren't always accurate. I used to do deliveries all over my county using gmaps, and it was usually 5 minutes off, even as much as 10 minutes off for some of the further destinations.
remus · 6 years ago
That's interesting, as for me it's eerily accurate and consistently gets it right within a minute or two for short journeys and within 5 to 10 mins for longer journeys (3± hrs). I guess it could be pretty location specific?
fouc · 6 years ago
I always have to buffer it, but I never quite know how much to buffer. Usually I add 5-10 minutes to the number. Or round it up.
trianglem · 6 years ago
I feel exactly the opposite. Google's estimates are usually accurate down to a couple of minutes for me.
AnimalMuppet · 6 years ago
Motion-sensing automatic doors can be opened by deer, bears (which has led to some excitement in hotels and hospitals), and even birds. I've seen birds that can activate the doors in the hardware store near me, and that know where the birdseed is on the shelves in the garden department.
kkarakk · 6 years ago
yup my favorite story of animals adapting to human environments is dogs riding subways in Russia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxJf2L2B5fY
zupa-hu · 6 years ago
Hilarious :)
JDiculous · 6 years ago
Depression. People are spending the majority of their lives staring at a screen, and then wondering why they're depressed.

In the moment it might not feel lonely. Exchanging DMs and posting on Reddit / HN / social media might feel like real communication. But ultimately there's a sense of emptiness to it, and it can't substitute real flesh-to-flesh human connection.

But it feels like we're always expected to be on our "grind", always bettering ourselves in an increasingly competitive labor market, so it's harder to go offline and just enjoy life because there's always that lingering sense of guilt that one is being left behind in our collective arms race to...nowhere.

WilliamEdward · 6 years ago
This is the exact position i am in right now. I crave the outside world and human contact like a drug. I am not clinically depressed, just in a state of constant longing for social interaction. I keep telling myself my work will allow me to one day enjoy the outside, ironic really.
shantly · 6 years ago
If you don't have to have home Internet service and an Internet-connected phone for work... shut off those services.

It's fine. There's more stuff to do without the Internet than a person can reasonably do, anyway, even if you're pretty picky.

StanislavPetrov · 6 years ago
Join some sort of a club. A bowling league. Some sort of scheduled team activity. The less competitive leagues will be filled with people looking to just socialize, unwind and have a few beers once a week.
hundreddaysoff · 6 years ago
This is one reason I changed careers from research to medicine. Now social interaction is built into my job, whether I want it or not, and I'm a much happier man for it. Sometimes all the grind does have a useful endpoint.
buboard · 6 years ago
This is a real problem and , oddly the solution is to build even more immersive technologies that bring people closer together, thus making the jump from virtual life -> real life smoother. We can't expect to just tell people to "go out and meet people", because people's expectations have changed, and the street has no "mute" and "block" buttons.
zbentley · 6 years ago
> We can't expect to just tell people to "go out and meet people", because people's expectations have changed

And they can't/won't change again? That seems wrong.

PrototypeNM1 · 6 years ago
I find it important to note that small communities where it is reasonable to know everyone and expect to be known are just as "real" as offline communites. I think there were a few years - at least for myself - where social media were mistaken and masqueraded as the same as small communities.
RickJWagner · 6 years ago
Word.
muzani · 6 years ago
We've learned that better tools doesn't actually create more productivity. Lots of people talk about how they dread email. A singular mega tool like Facebook or Evernote isn't great. Lots of disparate little tools isn't much better.

We've learned that data is unreliable. The highest click through rates come from nudity, or totally gross things like gore and trypophobia triggering holes. The highest CTR on text comes from well, clickbait. At this point everyone realizes this but some still don't notice that data-driven decisions optimizes for weird things.

IOT doesn't scale as well as we thought, because hardware doesn't scale at the rate of web software that we're used to. So hardware companies do more poorly than expected. Replace "hardware" with anything else that's hard to upgrade, and you get software-other hybrids like Uber and WeWork which didn't scale as well as anticipated.

concordDance · 6 years ago
> We've learned that better tools doesn't actually create more productivity. Lots of people talk about how they dread email. A singular mega tool like Facebook or Evernote isn't great. Lots of disparate little tools isn't much better.

I'm struggling to figure out what you mean by this.

Obviously it's not literally true (I've saved my colleagues thousands of hours with some of the tools I've made), but I can't figure out what else you could mean.

muzani · 6 years ago
I think it's more like some people walk in the office, comment and tag on Trello, reply emails, deal with messages on Slack, convert and forward files on Dropbox. Then it's lunch.

After lunch, they reply to some more emails, take a meeting on Zoom (waiting half an hour for that one guy to fix his microphone). Then they have 1 hour of work before the evening scrum stand-up, which is done on Slack or Zoom because half the team is remote.

But the CEO doesn't use Slack and his inbox is always full, so we forward him a report on WhatsApp, which has to be converted to PDF, which he then manually puts in his Prezi presentation for a client meeting tonight.

beerandt · 6 years ago
I think of it as a type of supply-side vs demand-side economics.

I think most employers assumed that employees with a 2x faster computer would send 2x the emails (or whatever task) in the same amount of time. In reality, they might send the same number of emails in half the time, then go home early.

kkarakk · 6 years ago
In my experience, hardware scales exponentially. Until business figures out a "need" for all the extra data they have they tend to under value IOT and use it counter productively - like monitoring employees in draconian ways.

There are lots of efficiencies that only show up once you monitor equipment for a couple of years but project leads don't really have that kind of time to show benefits

carapace · 6 years ago
Not exactly the same kind of thing, maybe, but I love London's accidental solar furnace.

"This London skyscraper can melt cars and set buildings on fire"

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/london-skyscrap...