I'm a foreign CTO working in Bangkok and being fully fluent in Thai showed me that it's exactly the same practice in SEA regions: Got to close a deal with a government official? They'll head to the "bathtub massage" area Huai Kwang. Need to bond with a local Business man? Deal closes there as well. Bond with male work mates? On to the bathtub place! Everyone knows it, there's jokes about it and this particular business has licences to run legally, even though prostitution is normally illegal in Thailand. I turned down several invites to such activities and got the usual gay jokes behind my back.
Heck in the US 20 years ago, a coworker of mine was assigned to a job where his first account was some old school east coast bank. One night dude calls "OMG man we are at dinner and the sales guy didn't show up so it's just me and them and they want to hit the strip clubs a couple blocks away after this." I had no good advice as I was a n00b too so I told him to call his boss. He was told "keep them happy" so he spent thousands on dinner, drinks, and strippers for most of the night on the corporate card (cash for the strippers...).
He was sure he would get fired or something. The following Monday his boss told him he heard that everyone had a great time, gave him a pat on the back and noted "I probabbly should have told you they party pretty hard."
I helped a sales focused tech company as their CTO for a few years. The sales team met at the bar for lunch and after work. Drugs were everywhere. The CFO kept a liquor cabinet in his desk drawer. There were parties all the time. Orgies were not uncommon.
They ended up being acquired before they could get full on wolf on wallstreet going but it was damn near close.
I drank with them but never took it any further. It’s a really unhealthy life both physically and emotionally.
~20 years ago I was a sales engineer to the extremely good salesman. We had submitted a substantial quote followed by invoice to one of the tier I carriers in US, but for reason or the other, it wouldn't get processed / paid. Rumor has it that the (now retired) VP blocking the payment at carrier in roundabout ways told to our sales exec that he will be going to Toronto at a given date and that he has never spent a night with sisters. Allegedly arrangements were made, and as soon as he was back, that PO was approved.
Till today, I do not know if that's how it expired. The salesman never admitted to anything. And in all ways he was one the most organized and professional salesman I've ever worked with. And in that vain, I want to believe this is how it also happened.
I think this is not uncommon, even nowadays. Noone likes to admit it because being politically correct and stuff. Even at company parties at big corporations, some Sales and Marketing folks tend go a bit overboard - and employees hooking up with each isn't unusual during such festivities either.
Anecdotally not the only dodgy business practice that excludes women. In Europe some companies (often state-owned) or public administrations are known to be free-masonry strongholds, and being a member of the right lodge is pretty much a necessary step to progress a career. Problem: despite pretending to be progressive, most lodges are either men or women only.
FWIW there is much disapproval in East Asia of these antics, and the guanxi culture emanating from China.
Sadly American business culture seems to be also drinking these guanxi- and gravitas-obsessed kool aids, and less disapproving (from what I have seen) than East Asia.
Others who are more connected and experienced would know more than I do.
>FWIW there is much disapproval in East Asia of these antics, and the guanxi culture emanating from China.
"Disapproval" in the same way that some groups were for tee-totalling in the US. Some small minority is against the practices, but they are extremely prevalent all across Asia (and China has little to do with it, besides being the new big customer in lots of those cases -- Japanese do the same kind of stuff, Koreans, etc.).
Isn't this pretty common in East Asia though? I've heard similar stories about South Korea, and the salaryman culture there is supposed to be pretty bad.
Pretty much. One of the most strange things I experience in America is the insistence that America is somehow the most sexist / racist country. Oh boy!
When the current generation of social justice from America floods its banks and arrives in Asia there is going to be an ugly reckoning.
I think the idea that many of China’s troubles (corruption / pollution / freedom reductions) are a byproduct of the extreme rapid move from poverty to wealth combined with an equally extreme arrival of wealth inequality is true. You simply can’t hit the gas pedal and accelerate 40 years into the future in one decade without creating the potential for major discontent.
But socially speaking, the era of progressivism America has experienced has not yet leaked out but it will.
American millenials think they are oppressed, they have no idea what the rest of the world finds normal. This article is a great example of how the rest of the world is currently socially caliberated compared to the USA.
The truth is that America is a paradise of social justice.
It's always easy to tell someone they have it good when we all live on a power law. Just tell them to look a notch down and see someone half their height, just as long as they don't look up at you and see your waist. The entire structure of the American economy and the attitudes it uses to keep its subjects in check are of this form.
In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe. In other ways it's better. I think if you take an every day liberal or social justice advocate, you'll find that they may be surprised at the level of racism and sexism that pervades other countries, specifically in Asia. But, I don't think you'll find that attitude from activists, academics and others who try to be informed about these things. They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.
>> They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.
I highly doubt that Japan will ever become as "socially aware" as the United States is currently, which is not really that much, if we're being honest. These countries are already very developed and have strong near-monocultures in them, and a pasttime for both Chinese and Japanese people is to make fun of Americans for being "soft" or giving a shit about social justice.
If you adjust your timeline to hundreds of years, maybe. But I really don't think a wave of social justice is likely to happen in those countries at the rate it is happening in the United States.
>In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe.
There is an equal or higher amount of racism in Europe. We may not have as much of the american black type but the cultural and ethnic divide with so many countries as well as the centuries of history has created a very complex situation. Eastern Europe is particularly bad with antisemitism for example. Southern Europe( e.g. Greece) has seen a big rise in fascism( the "hate all outsiders" type). I know immigrants who died in Germany by neo-nazi attacks. The list goes on and on...
A premise that there's less racism in Europe than in the US is just wrong (I'm a European who've spent a lot of time in the US for work and school). US is the PC capital of the world (for better or worse). There's just not a whole lot of non-white folks in Europe even now.
This is so true. Living in Southern China, things are done a certain way, many young women want the "good life" as they perceive it, with all its trappings, and that means becoming mistresses, KTV girls, and everything in between. With a dirth of good paying jobs, people go where the money is. There is a saying, "cry in the back of a BMW vs. laugh on the back of a bicycle". Much more pragmatism here when you don't have to deal with the judeo-christian restraints. Not judging, it is what it is.
> The truth is that America is a paradise of social justice.
If you're white.
Like, I get that racism specifically is way more prevalent other places. But it's pretty fucking bad in the US, especially for certain ethnicities. Not a "paradise" by any means.
There are some aspects of the social justice advocacy in recent years that may have gone a bit far, but your statement was pretty hyperbolic, and sounds a bit like the proverb where the man without limbs tells the man without legs "you have nothing to complain about! Nothing at all!".
It will be truly glorious when the light of social justice shines in Tokyo, transforming it into the paradise of that progressive city on a hill, San Francisco!
I disagree with the progressiveness. There is some, but a lot is actually just discrimination in the other direction. US youth really goes over the top with that stuff.
The article really isn't about the vice. The more interesting part of this conversation is, how do you know you can trust someone? The value of most agreements is not in their letter, but their spirit, and you need to know if you are dealing with someone who will honor the spirit of an agreement.
Probably the most meaningful aspect of this article, "But the purpose of these visits isn’t a good time. It’s to cement business and personal ties, binding men together through the power of taboo and mutual self-exposure, or at least the pretense of it. It lets them judge that the others involved in a potential deal are men of the same stripe."
And one paragraph down, " As one saying that went rapidly around the Chinese Internet in 2011 put it, “It’s better to do one bad thing with your boss than a hundred good things for your boss. Over time, this can extend to an actual exchange of what criminologist Diego Gambetta in his pioneering Codes of the Underworld calls “hostage-information,” mutual knowledge of each party’s sins that acts as a powerful guarantee neither will break their agreements."
And, "But vice serves as a kind of screen, weeding out the rare few who might have moral qualms about future dealings. It tells both sides that they’re playing by the same rules."
It's not just vice. There is an aspect of these transgression trust rituals in pretty much every organization I have seen.
What I read in this article is that vice is collateral in a relationship, where if there is no collateral, there is no basis on which to trust someone.
But as the article points out, it's not actually a good way of building trust:
"I told my husband that if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will cheat us. He said no way, he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a little smug. “Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.”"
It's completely true...if you get the impression that someone has dubious morals, they will just as easily cheat you. I never trust anyone in business who even hints at breaking the law or cheating on anything.
Arguably that particular situation was more a symptom of bringing a paramour to where spouses would be present, demonstrating disrespect for his clients relationships (and in turn his clients). That was the tell.
People generally don't cheat their in-groups, and these vice collateral rituals establish in-group status. Showing disrespect to the values of a group is a good indicator your perceived cost of defection is low. Signalling you don't value your collateral is a good way to put off counterparties.
The guy showing up with a mistress showed not that he was necessarily immoral, but rather, that he didn't value the esteem of his clients or vice collateral he had established.
AFAIK, many foreigners [read: other Asians as well as a sprinkling of non-Asians] (as well nationals from outside a city but who do business in said city) who are married have either "second wives[1]" in these alternate city offices or they have their marriages die in said places.
It has some intriguing aspects, such as the children of the "first wife" are often seen as more legitimate. Also often the wives tolerate each other. And more[2] in this abstract.
[1] in most cases it's hetero males, ergo the wives part. I believe one of the (perh former) chiefs of Foxconn [from TW] had several "second wives".
> It has some intriguing aspects, such as the children of the "first wife" are often seen as more legitimate.
My wife is Cantonese-American. Her fathers brothers, the ones who remained in Hong Kong, each had second wives. The children of the second wives aren't really considered family "publicly." They're never mentioned at family events or reunions, nor ever invited, either. When we visit Hong Kong we always carve time out to see a couple of her cousins from second wives. It was strange to me at first (as so many things are) but I've come to understand that it was very common among the older generations.
I'm not sure what's going on with her male cousins who are in Hong Kong. I've never thought to ask and don't want to pry but I am kind of curious now to know if it's being picked up by younger generations, as well. I guess in my naivety I had unconsciously assumed the practice would die out.
No, this is definitely not common in HK and is very much frowned upon among the younger generations. In fact, this is the very reason why Jackie Chan is universally hated by the younger generations here, despite his apparent popularity elsewhere.
Yes, the first family has more status and usually will be the ones that get the bulk of the inherited wealth.
It seems to be sort of expected that once you reach a certain level in your business life, you will get a mistress.
This is so prevalent in the Philippines that the family law concerning whether or not you can use the last name of your father is explicitly spelled out.
I don't think so. They'll not fight the man, because the man is the source of money and social security. But they'll certainly fight each other, including physical battles in the parking lot.
I'm surprised at that amount of surprise in this thread. I have a good friend who is (was) in sales. He had to get out once he realised that he'd turned into a full-blown alcoholic and that he'd wouldn't be able to do business if he at all tried to slow down. Heavily dependent on the industry though.
A few female entrepreneurs, however, explicitly reject the values pushed by businessmen. “One of my husband’s business friends got married just two years ago,” explained Li, in her early 40s, who co-owns a steel business with her husband, “We went to his wedding. But when we hosted an event last year, he came with a young girl who was obviously his mistress. I told my husband that if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will cheat us. He said no way, he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a little smug. “Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.”
As women get more powerful in society, they'll stand up a bit more for themselves and their gender. I recall reading an article that I can't find about women working in South Korea. It's difficult for them to get promoted to senior positions because they're often not interested in bringing their customers or business partners to strip clubs and the like, as it makes for an uncomfortable work experience. But the same article quotes men who say they're more comfortable working with people with whom they share dark secrets and experiences.
You can totally see that reason not flying over time if women become more powerful, similar to the woman surnamed Li. After some time, Li probably won't only speak up, she'll probably have more influence over decisions too.
A bit off-topic - well, to be fair, it may have been the other way: the man could have been the one saying "he'll cheat on us", and the women telling him "it's ok". Women are as prone to cheating as men. Women are not inherently faultless just because of their gender.
Power and opportunity corrupt - my sample size of one anecdata is that when a bunch of female magic circle solicitors were away on secondments they held a competition for who could cheat the most on their boyfriends at home.
In a more equal world like the western one we both (probably) live in, absolutely. In a place with strong gender roles (like the one in the article), being successful and female means being purposefully contrarian and acutely aware of gender roles; hence I would trust a female Chinese businesswoman more by default than their male counterparts because she operates in a gendered society.
My point is we have strong evidence people's behavior is effected by society. So in a society with strong gender roles its easier to make assertions about specific genders with less information because of how gender roles operate.
You are probably right, with the same opportunities and power, women should cheat as much as men.
But if it was the wife cheating in public, i'm pretty sure no one would have made a deal with her and her husband would have been warned within the hour. Women are not faultless, but those in power have to hide their faults and vulnerabilities harder than men.
Completely agree on this. Cheating on someone (be it a spouse or a business partner) is the definition of being untrustworthy.
To be clear, obviously I don’t mind how and with who people are spending their nights, as long as they are not deceiving someone. It’s a shame that open relationships are not more accepted, but that’s not an excuse because nobody forced a cheating person to take an engagement in the first time.
> I would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse
> either.
In personal relationships—by all means.
In business matters—it depends, unless you think that someones views about family directly transfers to the business world.
If anything I'd speculate there should be an inverse correlation: the more seriously someone treats their business
the more sloppy they can be about personal relationships. I would not be surprised if workaholism caused more divorces than cheating.
>I would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse either.
I would be careful about that, because that group includes the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr., Stephen Hawking, Einstein, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm inclined to feel the same way, and have ended personal relationships when I found out someone had cheated on their spouse, but some of history's greatest figures cheated on their spouse.
I was just skimming the comment (didn't read the article yet). But to me this feels a lot like Mad Men. In those series similar dark secrets were shared. And to me it seems to be good depiction of sexism in the 1960s in New York.
I'm just noting this since I know that I would have had much less of an image of a quote like this in your ocmment without having seen the series.
“One of my husband’s business friends got married just two years ago,” explained Li, in her early 40s, who co-owns a steel business with her husband, “We went to his wedding. But when we hosted an event last year, he came with a young girl who was obviously his mistress. We discussed it with him, and discovered that the nuances of marriage and relationships in other countries might not comply to our narrow points of view. I told my husband that we should have a more open mind about the kind of relationships people have. He agreed -- he’s a good guy, we can trust him! Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay. But, really, it has nothing to do with how he chooses to live and love.”
I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I believe Koreans and Japanese do this to a certain degree as well as certain other East Asian groups. I've heard Russians do bathhouse deals as well although I could be wrong and there is also the finance sector's strip club visits with their clientele that I've heard of (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-clos...).
It seems so weird to see people have to do things just to do business deals/sales all over and I'm curious as to even why. What advantage does it hold over normal sales?
Same reason as gangs requiring a new initiate to kill someone. If you have someone expose themselves doing something taboo and you yourself do it too, then a mutual bond is built.
It's far more simple than that. Many men absolutely love sex with new women. Humans are heavily social, and moral boundaries are strongly influenced by those that surround them. It is much easier to break certain moral boundaries when those around you also break them, and this gives men an opportunity to fulfill their desires.
Russians do bathhouse/sauna deals without sex (most of the time). In Russian culture, bathhouses/saunas are a very traditional safe place for a group of same-sex friends to socialize and get drunk together. And naturally a lot of unofficial political and business discussion happens in saunas too.
And after a proper session in a Russian-style sauna one is totally exhausted to even think about sex.
Surely there are stories about businesses booking saunas for private events with hookers to bribe officials, but in most cases these are urban legends.
Heck no! There was plenty of dealmaking which was "celebrated" afterwards at Houston strip joints up through the 00's.
(EDIT: I had one coworker who had a kind of perverse "nationalistic" Texan pride around the notion of things like "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" and actual whorehouses.)
I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. The practice of colonialist generals/warlords, typically of a naval background of using brothels as a place/culture to bond with other warlords/generals and their local puppets is the predecessor of the current "elite level" business culture observed in these former colonies.
For a more contemporary example, Thailand did not have this sexpot/sex tourist city reputation until after the Vietnam War. It was the exploitation of Thai beach resorts and cities as RnR locations for US soldiers that created the current conditions.
I'm pretty sure it's always been very normal in Thai society. The sex tourism, at least for westerners, started with the RnR stuff, as the story goes, but Huai Kwang is 98% Thai clients and probably 30X+ the size of any of the more visible Bangkok "sex tourism spots" (patpong, nana, cowboy). 97%+ of the sex being paid for in Thailand is being paid for by Thai people. The main thing that changed due to foreign influence was Thai people letting the sex workers spill into the streets instead of working more discretely.
Social bonding gone inappropriate. You like to buy from a (pseudo)friend more than a stranger. You've heard about the entire 'wining and dining' part of sales correct?
This article reminded me of a primatologist reporting on a social behavior of a group of bonobos.
I speculate that sex as social norming behavior is something many in the west are far-removed from. The heavy drinking is still present -- alcohol seems to lubricate anything -- but the pressure for sexual activities isn't anywhere near as strong here as it is in other places.
We commonly think of sex as romantic, even a quick fun-filled romp. We don't think of it very often as being a group social sorting event. Fascinating. Thanks for the link!
Readit News
He was sure he would get fired or something. The following Monday his boss told him he heard that everyone had a great time, gave him a pat on the back and noted "I probabbly should have told you they party pretty hard."
They ended up being acquired before they could get full on wolf on wallstreet going but it was damn near close.
I drank with them but never took it any further. It’s a really unhealthy life both physically and emotionally.
Till today, I do not know if that's how it expired. The salesman never admitted to anything. And in all ways he was one the most organized and professional salesman I've ever worked with. And in that vain, I want to believe this is how it also happened.
I'm surprised they didn't just invite you to a place that caters for both.
Dead Comment
Sadly American business culture seems to be also drinking these guanxi- and gravitas-obsessed kool aids, and less disapproving (from what I have seen) than East Asia.
Others who are more connected and experienced would know more than I do.
"Disapproval" in the same way that some groups were for tee-totalling in the US. Some small minority is against the practices, but they are extremely prevalent all across Asia (and China has little to do with it, besides being the new big customer in lots of those cases -- Japanese do the same kind of stuff, Koreans, etc.).
When the current generation of social justice from America floods its banks and arrives in Asia there is going to be an ugly reckoning.
I think the idea that many of China’s troubles (corruption / pollution / freedom reductions) are a byproduct of the extreme rapid move from poverty to wealth combined with an equally extreme arrival of wealth inequality is true. You simply can’t hit the gas pedal and accelerate 40 years into the future in one decade without creating the potential for major discontent.
But socially speaking, the era of progressivism America has experienced has not yet leaked out but it will.
American millenials think they are oppressed, they have no idea what the rest of the world finds normal. This article is a great example of how the rest of the world is currently socially caliberated compared to the USA.
The truth is that America is a paradise of social justice.
In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places, namely in Europe. In other ways it's better. I think if you take an every day liberal or social justice advocate, you'll find that they may be surprised at the level of racism and sexism that pervades other countries, specifically in Asia. But, I don't think you'll find that attitude from activists, academics and others who try to be informed about these things. They know it is the structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.
I highly doubt that Japan will ever become as "socially aware" as the United States is currently, which is not really that much, if we're being honest. These countries are already very developed and have strong near-monocultures in them, and a pasttime for both Chinese and Japanese people is to make fun of Americans for being "soft" or giving a shit about social justice.
If you adjust your timeline to hundreds of years, maybe. But I really don't think a wave of social justice is likely to happen in those countries at the rate it is happening in the United States.
There is an equal or higher amount of racism in Europe. We may not have as much of the american black type but the cultural and ethnic divide with so many countries as well as the centuries of history has created a very complex situation. Eastern Europe is particularly bad with antisemitism for example. Southern Europe( e.g. Greece) has seen a big rise in fascism( the "hate all outsiders" type). I know immigrants who died in Germany by neo-nazi attacks. The list goes on and on...
If you're white.
Like, I get that racism specifically is way more prevalent other places. But it's pretty fucking bad in the US, especially for certain ethnicities. Not a "paradise" by any means.
There are some aspects of the social justice advocacy in recent years that may have gone a bit far, but your statement was pretty hyperbolic, and sounds a bit like the proverb where the man without limbs tells the man without legs "you have nothing to complain about! Nothing at all!".
Probably the most meaningful aspect of this article, "But the purpose of these visits isn’t a good time. It’s to cement business and personal ties, binding men together through the power of taboo and mutual self-exposure, or at least the pretense of it. It lets them judge that the others involved in a potential deal are men of the same stripe."
And one paragraph down, " As one saying that went rapidly around the Chinese Internet in 2011 put it, “It’s better to do one bad thing with your boss than a hundred good things for your boss. Over time, this can extend to an actual exchange of what criminologist Diego Gambetta in his pioneering Codes of the Underworld calls “hostage-information,” mutual knowledge of each party’s sins that acts as a powerful guarantee neither will break their agreements."
And, "But vice serves as a kind of screen, weeding out the rare few who might have moral qualms about future dealings. It tells both sides that they’re playing by the same rules."
It's not just vice. There is an aspect of these transgression trust rituals in pretty much every organization I have seen.
What I read in this article is that vice is collateral in a relationship, where if there is no collateral, there is no basis on which to trust someone.
"I told my husband that if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will cheat us. He said no way, he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a little smug. “Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.”"
It's completely true...if you get the impression that someone has dubious morals, they will just as easily cheat you. I never trust anyone in business who even hints at breaking the law or cheating on anything.
People generally don't cheat their in-groups, and these vice collateral rituals establish in-group status. Showing disrespect to the values of a group is a good indicator your perceived cost of defection is low. Signalling you don't value your collateral is a good way to put off counterparties.
The guy showing up with a mistress showed not that he was necessarily immoral, but rather, that he didn't value the esteem of his clients or vice collateral he had established.
It has some intriguing aspects, such as the children of the "first wife" are often seen as more legitimate. Also often the wives tolerate each other. And more[2] in this abstract.
[1] in most cases it's hetero males, ergo the wives part. I believe one of the (perh former) chiefs of Foxconn [from TW] had several "second wives".
[2]journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184X11412171
My wife is Cantonese-American. Her fathers brothers, the ones who remained in Hong Kong, each had second wives. The children of the second wives aren't really considered family "publicly." They're never mentioned at family events or reunions, nor ever invited, either. When we visit Hong Kong we always carve time out to see a couple of her cousins from second wives. It was strange to me at first (as so many things are) but I've come to understand that it was very common among the older generations.
I'm not sure what's going on with her male cousins who are in Hong Kong. I've never thought to ask and don't want to pry but I am kind of curious now to know if it's being picked up by younger generations, as well. I guess in my naivety I had unconsciously assumed the practice would die out.
It seems to be sort of expected that once you reach a certain level in your business life, you will get a mistress.
This is so prevalent in the Philippines that the family law concerning whether or not you can use the last name of your father is explicitly spelled out.
I don't think so. They'll not fight the man, because the man is the source of money and social security. But they'll certainly fight each other, including physical battles in the parking lot.
As women get more powerful in society, they'll stand up a bit more for themselves and their gender. I recall reading an article that I can't find about women working in South Korea. It's difficult for them to get promoted to senior positions because they're often not interested in bringing their customers or business partners to strip clubs and the like, as it makes for an uncomfortable work experience. But the same article quotes men who say they're more comfortable working with people with whom they share dark secrets and experiences.
You can totally see that reason not flying over time if women become more powerful, similar to the woman surnamed Li. After some time, Li probably won't only speak up, she'll probably have more influence over decisions too.
Humans are flawed
My point is we have strong evidence people's behavior is effected by society. So in a society with strong gender roles its easier to make assertions about specific genders with less information because of how gender roles operate.
But if it was the wife cheating in public, i'm pretty sure no one would have made a deal with her and her husband would have been warned within the hour. Women are not faultless, but those in power have to hide their faults and vulnerabilities harder than men.
Nor would I want to hang out with colleagues at a strip club if we were not friends outside of work.
I don’t think this is some gender thing. Maybe be men are more likely to be coerced into doing these things. But I think they’re having fun.
To be clear, obviously I don’t mind how and with who people are spending their nights, as long as they are not deceiving someone. It’s a shame that open relationships are not more accepted, but that’s not an excuse because nobody forced a cheating person to take an engagement in the first time.
I would be careful about that, because that group includes the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr., Stephen Hawking, Einstein, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm inclined to feel the same way, and have ended personal relationships when I found out someone had cheated on their spouse, but some of history's greatest figures cheated on their spouse.
I'm just noting this since I know that I would have had much less of an image of a quote like this in your ocmment without having seen the series.
Except Li is from the same country, so your attempt at writing her story off as a foreigner's biased view doesn't really work.
Probably not gonna happen in China. Just google around to see how #metoo was turned down in mainland at least.
It seems so weird to see people have to do things just to do business deals/sales all over and I'm curious as to even why. What advantage does it hold over normal sales?
Same reason as gangs requiring a new initiate to kill someone. If you have someone expose themselves doing something taboo and you yourself do it too, then a mutual bond is built.
The article says as much.
Surely there are stories about businesses booking saunas for private events with hookers to bribe officials, but in most cases these are urban legends.
Heck no! There was plenty of dealmaking which was "celebrated" afterwards at Houston strip joints up through the 00's.
(EDIT: I had one coworker who had a kind of perverse "nationalistic" Texan pride around the notion of things like "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" and actual whorehouses.)
I see this as one of the effects of European colonialists on East Asia and South East Asian colonies. The practice of colonialist generals/warlords, typically of a naval background of using brothels as a place/culture to bond with other warlords/generals and their local puppets is the predecessor of the current "elite level" business culture observed in these former colonies.
For a more contemporary example, Thailand did not have this sexpot/sex tourist city reputation until after the Vietnam War. It was the exploitation of Thai beach resorts and cities as RnR locations for US soldiers that created the current conditions.
No. There were brothels somewhere in Asia, basically forever. Rough men have made deals in and around them, basically forever.
I speculate that sex as social norming behavior is something many in the west are far-removed from. The heavy drinking is still present -- alcohol seems to lubricate anything -- but the pressure for sexual activities isn't anywhere near as strong here as it is in other places.
We commonly think of sex as romantic, even a quick fun-filled romp. We don't think of it very often as being a group social sorting event. Fascinating. Thanks for the link!