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Posted by u/plg 8 years ago
Ask HN: Does anyone know if Apple plans to address the MacBook keyboard issue?
Does anyone have any idea if Apple is going to DO something about the MacBook keyboard issue? Or if this is simply the new normal for Apple laptop keyboards?

I know that the current butterfly mechanism is v2, it's slightly improved over the very 1st iteration (which appeared on the original 12" MacBook retina).

Will there be a v3?

millzlane · 8 years ago
If anyone knows apple the way that I do. The answer is yes and no. Yes they will address it when it affects their bottom line. No, because they don't consider it an issue to begin with. I'm old enough to remember when they had the logic board issue and specifically gave us (Apple care reps) instructions to not mention it to the customer. So if you called with an unrelated issue, I wasn't allowed to tell you about the recall to replace your logicboard that had an 80% failure rate. Or that the reason the system wasn't booting up was possible the logic board issue.

I don't think a company that knowingly ships a bad product, then, either dodges responsibility. Or puts the onus on the consumer will actually do anything right by the consumer with this keyboard issue. As if it's the consumers fault for buying a shitty product.

ransom1538 · 8 years ago
This. My last trip with my macbook pro to the genius bar went this way. My keyboard didn't work. He looked at my screen, then whispered: "your screen is having a recall -- look at the glossy layer - it is coming off -- we replace it for free".

I mean apple sure knows how to take my payment in 15 seconds at the store with my information and email address. But somehow they can't inform me of a recall.

spenvo · 8 years ago
No joke, since reading this comment I have confirmed in person my MacBook pro is covered and lined up a screen replacement with them. I really would have kicked myself if I found out about this after the coverage period ended. I guess it pays to read HN comments!
augbog · 8 years ago
Wow that is shady as fuck. I've always respected Apple for delivering fairly high quality products because, well, they are all the same (granted for a very high price but some people they are willing to pay that for that kind of service whether it's expected or not)

I'm seriously disappointed they do that.

solomatov · 8 years ago
Even if they have, they are known for super strict security rules, so it won't be disclosed.

I saw a link to their patent application where they patented a way to protect the current keyboard design from dust and crumbs.

Personally, I got tired of their disregard for software developers issues with hardware, and now my working machine in the new XPS 13 from Dell. I am happy with it.

bitL · 8 years ago
Are you an exception within your famous company or did they all abandon Macbooks?
madengr · 8 years ago
As an EE, I despise using laptops, rather want real engineering workstations.

So what is it with software developers and laptops? The portability? Or rather people just being used to a laptop since they are ubiquitous in college. Even plugged into monitors, laptop keyboards just plain suck.

I have an XPS-13, and it's handy for field use with GNU Radio, but can't fathom doing anything productive on it.

gknoy · 8 years ago
I'll echo what others have said: Portability is _not always_ what you want, but when you need it, a laptop is valuable. I normally work at a desk, with my laptop plugged into my extra monitors. (I could use a docking station but I actually like the keyboard + trackpad on this (older) Macbook.)

Here are some times when I've benefitted from having a laptop:

- I can grab it and walk into an enclosed meeting room for a video conference. - A coworker and I can grab a conference room and pair on some task if necessary. - When on-call, I keep my laptop with me when I go home. - I can leave early to run an errand, and then work from home in the evening.

I am much more productive using my laptop than my home desktop, for some reason. It's likely that my laptop has all of my shell aliases, editor settings, source code, SSH keys, etc, but the main thing I think is that I don't need to context switch as heavily -- my editor still has the same things open, my shell has the same history, etc, as when I left work.

The ergonomics of a laptop could be better. I used to have a beastly machine with a nice mechanical keyboard, etc. I miss that a bit, but there are substantial benefits to having a laptop.

danpalmer · 8 years ago
All the replies you've had so far are good reasons for why software engineers might prefer laptops.

As a different way of looking at it, as an Electronic Engineer (I hope I got the right acronym), some of the software you run may well require a bit more performance than most software engineers need.

I think a mobile i7, 16GB of fast RAM, and a fast SSD is pretty good for most developers now, particularly when we're not compiling code - we're mostly using scripting languages (at least the type of devs around here) so the development cycle depends more on reloading and parsing files off disk than on intensive compilation and optimisation steps. There are definitely software engineers who need more, but many will do just fine on a laptop, and the portability wins out.

Compared to Electronic Engineering, I remember some of the software that EE students used at the uni I went to required some beefy hardware to run on. It was large complicated software, that I'd put in the same category as 3D modelling suites, or video editing/effects/rendering. It required high performance workstations, and higher performance simulation servers. I can totally see why an Electronic Engineer would prefer a workstation (although I think to call it a "real" workstation would be a little disingenuous, it depends what your engineering is!)

rootusrootus · 8 years ago
At my company we have laptops because the company wants people to secure them when they're not at their desk, by taking them with them. Home, meetings, you name it.

Almost nobody uses their laptop keyboard, however, unless they're using the laptop away from their desk. We all have 2-3 monitors and external keyboards & mice.

vorpalhex · 8 years ago
> what is it with software developers and laptops?

I've had to do emergency patches while sitting in a car on a cross-state roadtrip. I've had to ssh in to verify issues in national parks. Sometimes I just like sitting in a coffee shop or a park when I'm writing mindless code.

I run an older macbook, with some semi-heavy docker containers for dev work. It's fine enough for most of my work.

civilitty · 8 years ago
I think it boils down to UI navigation. With a window manager, terminal, and an editor/IDE I don't really need to use the mouse to work effectively as a programmer. Once my muscle memory adapts to the keyboard layout, I'm set. However, navigating a 2D schematic/PCB/drawing or a 3D part with a touchpad is a nightmare and most software doesn't support the touch screen mechanics that I need to effectively replace navigation with a physical mouse. Even with a 3dconnexion portable 3D mouse, there's just too much clicking and precise movement involved in a UI like Altium or Solidworks to be usable.

That and I've never seen a portable laptop that can handle a Solidworks multi-hundred part assembly or a 20 layer Altium PCB, except for massive 17" workstations that are ostensibly laptops.

twblalock · 8 years ago
Plug it in to a keyboard and mouse as well as a monitor when you are at your desk and the problem is solved.
adrice727 · 8 years ago
For me, it's the portability. I can work from my desk, a coffee shop, a park, or the floor of my living room, which is where I am right now. Working remotely is never an issue because I have everything I need with me.
marrone12 · 8 years ago
People who work in businesses frequently need to take their computer along to meetings, or for pair programming, or if they're going to work remotely.
s_kilk · 8 years ago
> So what is it with software developers and laptops? The portability?

Yes, the portability, that bit is non-negotiable. Plus, when I'm seated at a desk I can always plug in a good mechanical keyboard and external monitor.

volkk · 8 years ago
personally, i like to work from random areas and not be confined to a desk per se.

> I have an XPS-13, and it's handy for field use with an SDR, but can't fathom doing anything productive on it.

im just a lowly developer working on the backend of sites running rails. im pretty sure i can code on a toaster if need be. probably highly depends on what kind of architecture youre coding on. i'd wager that game developers need beefy machines.

rodwyer · 8 years ago
I got sick of it myself and switched to a Lenovo X1 Carbon. Comparison here: http://blog.richard.do/index.php/2018/05/2018-macbook-pro-vs...
randlet · 8 years ago
I moved to an X1 Carbon (running Ubuntu) from a MBP too. Very happy with it. Keyboard and trackpad are both great.
dhruvkar · 8 years ago
Did the same (MBP --> X1 Carbon) running Lubuntu 16.04.

Few minor irritations - super sensitive touchpad, multi-monitor setup isn't seamless (but works), FN (touch) keys don't all work. Volume keys don't work, but brightness keys do.

All in all, happy with it far. Had to get used to a more keyboard-based workflow rather than touchpad-based -- switching to apps & desktops, moving windows, copy-paste, etc. all now using keyboard.

happimess · 8 years ago
Thanks for the concise review. Off-topic question, though:

> but due to the ports issue (which Apple are taking the piss with)

What does "taking the piss with" mean in this context?

s_kilk · 8 years ago
In British English this would mean "playing a joke", essentially.

If I tried to convince you that London is actually located on Mars, or that Brexit is a good idea, I'd be taking the piss.

qop · 8 years ago
Not taking seriously, fucking around, joking about, assuming a less than professional attitude about, etc
bitL · 8 years ago
Can you Hackintosh it? Like ZenBook? Meaning you can run Linux, Windows 7/10 and macOS on the same comp without any compromises?
d3sandoval · 8 years ago
hiram112 · 8 years ago
I've heard X1 Carbon 5th is great for Linux, but 6th gen still had issues. Anyone know if the 6th gen is okay with Linux yet?
davidmr · 8 years ago
It’s still a bit iffy. The lack of a proper S3 sleep state is a big, big problem for me. I lose about 6% of the battery life an hour in sleep on F28, and it generates enough heat that I don't feel comfortable putting it in its sleeve while in sleep. Some people have had good luck patching the ACPI tables, but that doesn't work on every distro. I can hibernate okay, but that's really much worse than sleeping.

Other than the power issues, it's a lovely laptop.

I don't regret buying it at all because I don't really mind shaking out problems with new hardware and I usually keep my laptops for ~6 years, but if it's a big deal, I'd buy a used 5th gen X1. Those work flawlessly.

zerr · 8 years ago
How does Dell XPS compare to Lenovo?
sofaofthedamned · 8 years ago
Had both, pretty similar. Better keyboard on X1 Carbon, nicer form-factor on XPS 13, better camera placement on X1 (but I don't use it, so...), X1 is just better. This is using Fedora, you need a later kernel for both of them (4.17+) to stop bad things happening.
code4tee · 8 years ago
Let’ss Hope soo becausse it’s gettiing to be quitee annnnoying.
peterhadlaw · 8 years ago
I laughed and then I cried and then I laughed tears at this commment.
slouch · 8 years ago
I bought a 2015 refurb instead of a new macbook because of the keyboard issues. It'll get me over this issue and into 2020, I believe.
atombender · 8 years ago
I bought a new 2015 model, although in my case the Touch Bar was the main reason -- I absolutely hated the new keyboard layout (lack of Esc, no physical function keys, arrow keys are now arranged in way where your fingers can't easily find the right keys without looking down).

Unfortunately, turns out they're no longer made with a discrete GPU -- they only have an Intel Iris integrated graphics chip now, no AMD Radeon. The discrete model was discontinued in 2016.

As a result, graphics performance is horrible. It's especially noticeably bad with the scaled Retina mode. I have to use the scaled mode on my external 4K display because otherwise the UI becomes so small the text is unreadable. That's when you realize that Apple's approach to resolution independence is pretty crappy. You'd think they could just run in 1:1 and just render text, buttons and so on a little larger, but that's not possible.

notadoc · 8 years ago
That is what my entire office did too, holding out hope the next generation has a reliable keyboard and no touch bar
jacquesc · 8 years ago
Same at our office. mid 2015 model 15" is the standard issue for developers. A few people go the latest model and all have regretted it.

Seems like Apple can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. iPhone and Watches is all they care about and they don't put any thought into Macs anymore.

mamcx · 8 years ago
I'm hit with the not support of mojave with my 2011 iMac, and all the options now are bad, and cost a LOT for me (specially because SSD upgrades cost so much).

The ironic bit is that old machines are almost as costly as new ones...

greglindahl · 8 years ago
I have the 12" MacBook, so it's the v1 keyboard, and after I got used to it, I was OK with it.
txcwpalpha · 8 years ago
I'm not exactly sure which "issues" the OP is talking about, but one of the biggest issues isn't just "getting used to" the new keyboard, but the fact that the new keyboard breaks so easily and then costs so much to replace. At that point it doesn't matter how much you like the new style of keyboard, because if your S key is broken, the keyboard is practically unusable.

I have a v2 butterfly keyboard and I actually do prefer the tactile feel over older MacBooks, but the fact that a single piece of hair/dust has broken my keyboard is really unacceptable and something I definitely would like to see addressed.

greglindahl · 8 years ago
Breakage applies to a subset of users. Everyone has to get used to typing on it. Typing on it was the issue I was referring to.
chisleu · 8 years ago
I also didn't like it at first, but after some getting use to, I love it. I like it better than my mid 2015 MBP.

edit: I also bought a new MBP 13" and I like it the best. I prefer a 13" form factor, but I primarily got it because it has physical keys instead of the bar.

pentae · 8 years ago
Do you remember when Apple laptops had the best keyboards in the business? I miss those days.
ppetty · 8 years ago
I wonder what it’s like on Apple’s campuses? I’d guess their employees all have new laptops, or at least Touch Bar equipped models. How many have the Bluetooth Magic Keyboard & Track Pad at their work station too? If they do use external keyboards how do they charge them? From a monitor’s USB3 ports? wall outlet with charger nub? USB C to USB 3 dongle? You have to have one of those methods to charge by Thunderbolt on the Touch Bar laptops … Seriously, that seems like a viable metric to understand satisfaction with the onboard keyboard & trackpad. Or maybe Apple doesn’t think this is as big an issue as it is because so many people are now relying on alternate input devices.