I live and work in France and I am well versed in this type of Visa. It's a very nice arrangement, but it's still France. It's still dealing with the same administrative burdens for everything else. You don't get treated special, you just have a special deal. I've said before that if France wants to attract foreign talent what they need to do is assign someone in the French administration to help workers get established. That is the hard part about coming to work in France. If you've dealt with the DMV in the US, imagine that for everything. You can't just walk into a bank and open an account. You can make an appointment for next week...which is your first consultation. You'll need to bring a long of documentation for your second appointment the week after. You won't get your bank card for awhile, and by the way you'll have to activate it before you can use it. That might take a week. You'll need to go to Paris for a medical check that you can do your job. All French employees must do this. And you have to do it every two years. Pee in a cup. Undress over there. You'll need to go to the prefecture to get your residence permit. It took me 5 months to get my initial appointment and a total of 9 months to get my card, even though the "long term visa" in your passport is only good for 3 months. Some people I know waited 2.5 years for their residence card, another over a year. More? The French healthcare system is pretty good, but you won't get on it until after several trips to the Social Security office. Whoops, your entire file was sent back to you because they needed some additional piece of documentation they didn't tell you about. Make another appointment. Repeat. Repeat. Drivers license? If you are 1 of 14 states you can exhcange easily, but you only have 1 year to do that, after which you have to go to driving school. 3000 euros. Better learn French to pass the test. Better learn French to navigate all the adminstration. So Year 1 you will not be productive. You will be running around trying to stay legally. For an entire year. Ask me how I know.
I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either.
You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy".
That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.
I can speak about Netherlands. The process is super easy and super smooth.
* I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country
* I opened bank account on 4th day
* I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all
Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment.
Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters!
I can speak for Ireland. I am from a south asian country and the who process in Ireland has been a breeze.
Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later.
Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments.
Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license.
Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.
Migrating to Switzerland was a breeze. Everything was set in under a week. Founding a LTD was also easy. In France it took months to get everything solved for immigration (as a EU citizen). I am still struggling to solve those various puzzle pieces for founding a company. The kafkaesque RSI alone requires more time and effort then all the bureaucry in Switzerland together.
I agree that other countries are difficult, too. France moreso I think, but not alone in all of this. Which is why I'm arguing the difficulty in working in or starting a company in France is not money, it's navigating all the administration you need to do. And you won't know all there is to do until you do it. And since the laws change periodically, not even the prefecture will always know. I had immigration lawyers get the prefecture to correct the residency card they were issuing for me because they did it under a different program. How are you to know if the administration is doing it all correctly? And how do you know what all there is to do? And it is all in French. You better learn French or bring a translator. That's what I did.
And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes.
And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story.
Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.
Moving to the US was easier than navigating the French administration as a French citizen.
I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour.
Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.
I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless. No visas, no registration as a foreign worker, just show up and tell the JobCenter you need a National Insurance Number (which took almost a month from the first phone call to getting a cancallation, to getting the number in the post).
Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.
It was a nightmare for my partner and I as well. We lived together in Germany for 3 years with no problems (We are Australian), but moving to Lyon nearly broke me.
I won't go in to details (unless someone asks) but one thing that I want to share is a great option for expats needing a French bank account quickly. It's called Compte Nickel: a fairly new (at the time) startup that is essentially a small bank-like system which requires only a French mailing address, a passport, €20, and a visit to a participating newsagent.
That gets you a bank account with the required RIB so you can get your salary paid, use ATMs, make online payments, and the like. It comes with a Mastercard debit card which the newsagent hands you upon setup in-store. The account has some limits on transactions to prevent laundering but nothing we found a hindrance. It costs €20 a year. If anyone is having issues getting a French bank account just so they can get on their feet, it will be of use to you:
We've since moved back to Germany, which was a huge relief. Being able to just email the local immigration office to give some info or agree on an appointment time... unthinkable in France.
I'm interested in hearing more because my Year 1 in France was very stressful and I am curious to know if it was for other people. And perhaps some poor soul reading this will know how to avoid some pain.
Disclaimer : I might be biased : I am currently waiting for my H1B to process in order to move to San Francisco.
I have worked in France for most of my career so far. My first hand experience is of course limited (I only have 5 years of experience) but I really feel that the FrenchTech is overblown. There are some great startups but they are extremely rare.
We have started hiring non french people in the startup I work for one year ago and the culture clash is tremendous. Things that have bothered me for a while are doubly strange for them :
- Everything takes a LOT of time and nobody prioritizes making the process more efficient. There are many bottlenecks.. after discussing with colleagues in non French companies, they have all found solutions in order to solve them. Here there is no will to do so. So it can take weeks to merge simple changes.
- very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community.
-LOTS of office politics
I don't expect any of these to become perfect in another country but I am more than ready for a change of air.
> If you've dealt with the DMV in the US, imagine that for everything. You can't just walk into a bank and open an account
I know the DMV is the ultimate symbol, to a lot of Americans, of the ultimate administrative clutter. But trust me, if any 'public services' of France could run with just half the throughput and efficiency of the DMV, people would be more than happy with that :P
-> For the ultimate kafkaesque experience, just try get a car registration outside of Paris intra-murros, say, Neuf-Trois. You'll discover an alternative universe and might realize that hey, the DMV is awesome!
You'll need to go to Paris for a medical check that you can do your job. All French employees must do this. And you have to do it every two years. Pee in a cup. Undress over there.
Yep the "visite médicale d'embauche" shocks a lot of foreigners... It was suppressed in January [0] for white collar workers but in risky jobs it's still mandatory.
I work for a major French engineering company, and have done so in France - I don't know what job OP has, but my company does NOT make you do this.
Also worth noting that I've had to do this in other countries; I'd say it's more problematic elsewhere.
I would however say that yes, the French bureaucracy is something else entirely. But if you are friendly to them and show your face things will happen faster.
I work in tech in France and in my personal experience, this is fake. You do have to get a medical exam upon employment but that's it. You'll have to get your shirt off for a heart exam. But it doesn't have to be in Paris, no peeing in a cup, and you won't have to do it every 2 years.
There's a medical check but you don't have to pee in a cup (they propose you a urine test but it's optional) and you don't have to undress either, mostly chat with a doctor and pass an eye exam.
And it's only in Paris if you're in Paris, otherwise you'll do it wherever you live.
I don't really see what's shocking, it's just to make sure you're medically apt to do the job your employer is asking you to, and that your employer provides the right environment to work in a way that's safe for you.
For tech jobs it boils down mostly to workspace ergonomics, and a sane work schedule.
Just to add one more point, on the website it says:
"Dependent children under the age of 18 do NOT need a residence permit. However, an underage child travel document (‘document de circulation pour étranger mineur’ – DCEM) must be obtained at your local Préfecture after your arrival in France."
In my prefecture we have been trying to get a DCEM for each child for 1 year. The prefecture is not doing them at all, and they do not know when they will again. And the prefecture says the children cannot re-enter France without them. Our immigration lawyer says "as a practical matter" border control will allow the kids back in if you fly into France (but maybe not another EU country).
The residency for kids is a pretty good deal, but you just may not actually be able to get it (maybe in another year?).
But I actually do really like France. I want to stay here awhile. I've done everything above board, legally, legitimately. The people are really great, not like the stereotypes. It's worth all the hassle I believe, but I think people need to be aware of the reality of the difficulty of the process that France is advertising in trying to attract foreign tech workers.
1. That's not necessarily easy for people coming from outside the Eurozone.
2. For people from inside the Eurozone, it might still not work: I've had a work contract in a Eurozone country that specified that I had to have a bank account in that country. Not sure why, not sure whether it's legal, but not necessarily something you want to fight.
3. In France, it would not work as a practical matter. In other countries, you give people your IBAN in an email and you're set; in France, they require you to give them something called a RIB, which is a piece of paper (or a PDF) issued by your bank carrying your IBAN. Foreign banks do not issue things that would be accepted as a RIB in France, so your employer would say they can't transfer your money. Stupid? Yes! Everyday reality in France? Also yes, sadly.
US citizens should note that US Federal law requires you to file a statement of your overseas accounts every year, and your foreign bank must report your assets to the US government. There are steep fines if the foreign bank does not comply. This puts a burden and risk on many banks so they sometimes refuse to let Americans open bank accounts with them. And even when they do open an account for you, expect to provide a lot of official documentation (passports, social security number). Just another benefit of being from the land of the free.
I've seen some pretty technical things done by some french developers, so for sure they have the talent. Why there are no noticeable companies coming out of France then? I just think the same, they are killing it with bureaucracy.
It looks great on paper but the devil will be in the detail and how well they execute on the admin/bureaucracy side.
If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :)
I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) but this is a country where in 2013 we moved from one department to another and had to close our bank accounts with the branches in the first department and open new ones in the second department because there was no way to migrate accounts between branches of the same bank o_O We literally had to post cheques to a friend in the old department so he could deposit them while we waited for the old accounts to be closed and new ones opened (complete with different cards, chequebooks, account numbers - the works).
Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch. Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one).
Having said all of that, France is awesome despite its flaws and there are lots of reasons to be hopeful with Macron now piloting the ship.
After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life, or paying the significant opportunity cost of learning a new language -- which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business, and which won't help you in the next country in which you live.
What is needed is a joint common language (English) that everyone in the EU learns starting in kindergarten and in which you're guaranteed state services in every member state. But there is no chance the French and German speakers would ever agree to that, it is like a religious issue.
Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe.
(this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).
I'm currently somewhat fluent in 3 europeans languages and will soon attend a month long intensive course to beef up my 4th(french).
Yes it's a bother but it's also the charm of Europe.
Scandinavia is already part where there. Almost everyone in Denmark, Sweden and Norway speaks English at least decently well. I don't know about Sweden and Norway, but at least in Denmark there is a lot of things that you can get in English as well. But it would probably still be somewhat tricky.
You'll take my own language from my cold, dying hands. I'm sure most Europeans feel the same. I'm not going to go around speaking fucking English. That will never ever happen.
Personally, I've moved two times and I didn't have to do the close/open/cheque stuff. And the direct debit authorization I've since before the first move keep working.
As for cheques, It's very rarely used, I still use the first chequebook I was given when I opened my bank account more than 10 years ago. I've never experienced the "pay by cheque" at the super market since I was a child. Cheques are used in very few situations, the last I encountered was for the "solde de tout compte" when I left my previous job.
I don't live in France anymore and don't have the accounts but they were big banks: Credit Agricole and Caisse D'Epargne. I've heard similar stories with Banque Populaire too.
As for cheque usage, 4 years ago (when I was there) loads of people were still using them (young and old). This is in central and south France (no idea about Paris, never lived there).
At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions (and it goes well beyond Mélenchon voters). You face hostility as soon as you make money, with consequences ranging from being denied places in the kindergarten to the "petit Gregory" affair where the 5 years old son of a newly promoted team leader was drowned. I'm trying to show off as much as I can that I'm sponsoring poverty, donating a lot, making a lot for minorities, etc, because truth is, I'm afraid of getting mugged. People who criticize me, talking as if I belonged to the group of tax evaders, themselves don't have a clean business and evade taxes just as much as Greek citizen, so don't expect any rationality in their despicable criticism. Things can be so simple as, if you don't buy locally-grown groceries, you deserve to be told off in public for not helping the local population.
If you belong to the Christian minority, expect to be harassed by those you say "We need to respect all religions". Everyday you'll face jokes like "priests rape kids, followers are stuck-up, donating is worse than sponsoring a mafia".
President Macron himself is seen as a capitalist enemy by those 20-50%, and this Mélenchon group explicitly denies his legitimacy. There are currently very active groups and many of my friends are preparing the ground on Facebook (God knows what kind of riots they're preparing for September – you think I'm kidding? wait and watch).
French people are entirely hostile to privately-owned companies and average-wealthy managers, so, no, I wouldn't recommend my country for entrepreneurs, not until they make peace with a reasonable dose of capitslism. And that's where I have hope for Macron: If he does the right things, he may tame anti-capitalism sentiments a bit and show that hard works does bring money.
Two of my kids are in lycee (high school) and some of the things they teach there are surprising. I can't speak for what you experienced, but I can say that what they teach in the lycee is not too far off of what you you wrote. Yet the government wants to recruit tech talent. Hmmm. However, most French people I know are not anti-capitalist. It might be more of an issue with the younger generation.
> At least 20% of French people express capitalism-hostile opinions.
In other words, 80% don't. I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make and I don't want to interpret your words as a claim that 20% is far too much.
Until we get an implementation of Capitalism that proves its superiority to all other models and demonstrates its ability to regulate itself, it's probably safe to tolerate alternative points of views don't you think? If it provides moderation and balance, I'm not against it personally.
That said, the de-facto, pavlovian hostility you are probably referring to is certainly annoying: and what I mean is that sometimes it is just purely out of doctrine, without a single argument intelligent or not. But hey, you have the same thing at the other end of the spectrum, on the other side of the Atlantic where for example, the words 'socialist' or 'communist' are slurs.
This is true. I've spent the past couple of months in various areas of France.
I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.
Every person here should watch Yuri Bezmenov's lectures on ideological subversion, you can find them on youtube.
The lecture is 30 years old but everything going on today makes sense after hearing him lay things out. The division in society on race, gender, income, etc is by design to keep the plebes at each others throats.
He has. That being said, he has nominated some semi competent people for tech related things (eg Mounor Mahjoubi as ministre du numérique) so hopefully that was all campaign talk and won't actually get implemented.
I have the Auto Entrpreneur status (even though I'm currently employed). If you understand french, registering to it is a breeze, otherwise you can find help online, I agree that it could be improved though.
You can use an online bank if you think you'll move around a lot. Plus today it has become very easy to switch bank thanks to Loi Macron, and most bank now take charge of everything to attract new customers.
I'm not exactly sure, but i think of the EU countries. Flanders in Belgium would be a better place to start then France.
All developers/people speak: French, English and Dutch.
The only thing is, the taxes are very high. But on the other hand, the health care is awesome and cheap. Flemish people are also known to be hard workers
Anekdote: I'm Flemish, but this is what polls/research of EU-countries also conclude.
The things you hear in the news, is mostly when the Southern part of Belgium is involved ( strikes, political crisis, Brussels-Molenbeek). Due to differences between North and South Belgium ( south = very socialist and even communism since recently, where north is more liberal)
I actually believe the northern part of Belgium has more in common with the Netherlands, than the southern part..
PS. I'll probably be downvoted, but please add your opinion. I know it's very controversial. That doesn't mean i'm wrong. If you think i'm wrong, i'm open for alternative opinions as always.
The Belgian administration is an even bigger mess than France. I have a colleague that had to wait 8 month in Brussles for his residency card, which is required for a ton of stuff (ie. getting a phone number in belgium).
Also in actual Flanders, some people in the administration will only ever talk to you in Dutch, even if they understand English and French.
I went through a similar situation myself and had a similar yet more positive experience.
> Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch.
Not true for all banks, national ones (like BNP) always allowed to deposit anywhere, and for most you could mail directly to the account branch (no need to go through a friend). Also, online banks solve this nicely.
> Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one).
"Half" is overemphatic, even for 2013. This is not the case anymore, huge majority now pays via chip and pin cards and waiting in line is not so much of a problem with self-checkout machines.
Startups do well when they improve things for people who vote with their wallets (buying this or that service).
Bureaucracies though are a completely different beast. Better value? Happier customers? They care not a bit. You need different levers to (sloooowly) move them.
Absolutely not. The reason things are like described ( although it's not as bad today), is because many sectors are heavily regulated, and belong to a few actors abusing their monopolistic position. There's a reason the european union gave a 500millions fine to the french bank a decade ago ( but things didn't move a lot).
As an example, all the online banking start ups belong ( or were created as subsidiaries of) big banks. All of them.
I definitely understand you in the banking thing. We found out a lot of their banks aren't actually banks but regional credit unions. Our bank in rive gauche was not the same bank in Picardi or Bordeaux. Getting new cards required us to drive down from Paris to our actual branch in Bordeaux.
We eventually transferred to a large multinational bank. It requires us to keep a lot of funds in their account. But I can deposit a check anywhere in France.
This seems sort of like the kind of visa system the USA would advertise to attract a particular talented group, does it not? The founder visa looks quite friendly and easy, but it's four years. What happens after that? And what if the startup fails, does the founder have to leave France?
I also wonder how appealing these international visa programs will be in light of the changing US immigration and visa system. Will the USA lose out on talent? Will the USA lose on half of the next generation of billion dollar+ startups? Assuming the past trend mentioned in WSJ persists, anyway
"The founder visa looks quite friendly and easy, but it's four years. What happens after that? And what if the startup fails, does the founder have to leave France?"
I think that ambiguity is by design, to attract certain type of demographics for people falling under the employees and founders groups. (i.e. young, unattached, adventurous)
For people falling into the investor group, I seriously doubt getting visa renewed after 4 year will be an issue as long as they are willing to bring in additional capital.
It says right there on the page that it's renewable. Also, if you are in the country legally for four years, and you work and pay taxes, it should be easy to get some other kind of permanent residence permit. After one more year, you can even apply for citizenship.
Here is a country that refused to give me knowledge when i needed it but it's now trying to lure me in.
A decade back i finished my high school in a French speaking country with honors and got an admission in a French university to study Business Administration. I've been refused the entry visa for some imaginary reasons. Unofficially i was part of the group of potential foreign students who may refuse to go back to their home-country after graduation.
I then stayed in my country went to university to get a "useless" B.A. that couldn't help me to face the socio-economic realities of the world.
In 2015 i read a book "Googled" by Ken Auletta that shacked me to the core and pushed me to learn how to code.
I'm now a self taught programmer with skills that will benefit any French Tech startup and products' projects that could create 1000s of jobs in France if i decide to start my companies there.
That said, I would not go to France because it didn't welcome me when i wanted to get in order to acquire knowledge. Now France "needs" me to come and boost their shrinking economy with the tech-knowledge i have acquired elsewhere.
Sorry Monsieur le President, I ain't coming.
It should not be that personal. This a weird way to think of it, France is 20 million times different from the "France" of that person or persons, who decided you do not go there. I was turned down from getting an entry visa to a country when I needed it the most, yet go it later very easily for something that I was not very keen to travel for it. By the way, I went to France last month and loved every minute of it.
Don't let anybody kid you. It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of shit every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell.
-- Mario Puzo
I've been working on relocating to France, and while I'm very excited to do it it's been frustrating to try to get information about this program. People don't seem to know what documentation is required, and replies come after weeks (if ever) from government bodies.
As far as trades/professions are concerned, you need a degree or a certificate of some kind for virtually everything in France (from being a hairdresser all the way up to doctors/lawyers).
That's so fucking backwards. France was, is and will remain a shit place for any serious entrepreneur. Literally no single unicorn founder from the US would have satisfied these old fashioned conservative anti-progression requirements.
...as well as millions of other non-graduates you never heard of, with good reason. For any random field, it is easy to pick outliers. The question is, what matters more to you - rejecting a few false negatives or a lot more false positives.
I believe a "Masters" in France is roughly equivalent to a Bachelors in USA/Canada. At least that's my understanding from friends in France who basically refer to a high school diploma as Baccalaureate.
Nope. At the university, a "master" is something you get after studying for 5 years, roughly. After 3 years, you get a "licence", which is equivalent to a BA/BS. Engineering schools use a slightly different system, but it's roughly equivalent.
I don't have a degree (just 35 years of experience shipping products at companies you have definitely heard of). Some of the best engineers I've worked with haven't had degrees. One guy I know (who will never have to work again) didn't even bother to graduate from high school. A few of them have written papers published in academic journals. There is definitely more than "a few lines of code" involved in their careers.
I guess if you're a bureaucrat designing a visa, requiring a degree makes sense. But saying that people lacking degrees aren't good engineers is crazy.
The best developper I know didn't even finished school. I train every month plenty of terrible devs for a living. They all have better formal education than I, yet I'm paid 5 times their salary to teach them how to do their job.
The education system should be giving you clues on who you should hire. But it doesn't fulfill its mission at all.
And Europe wonders why it doesn't have any serious Facebook/Google competitors.
An engineer is anyone who uses technology to solve a problem. Now there's a massive spectrum of quality there, but a piece of paper or two and some classwork doesn't make you an engineer. Or even a particularly good engineer. Just the other day I explained how Hash Tables work to someone with a Masters.
I'm a self taught dev with 15+ years' experience. I only got a degree a few years ago (did it while working). Honestly, I learned exactly nothing useful that I didn't already know.
I do a lot of hiring and, in my experience, having a degree (or indeed the class/score of said degree) has no relation to the real-world abilities of candidates.
When I got my job at NeXT computer I remember Steve Jobs saying to me that there were only two people there without degrees, and he was one of them (and I was the other.)
I've never been comfortable with the widespread use of the term "engineer" in software design and development contexts, but that doesn't change the fact that it's kind of a joke to try requiring a master's degree for what's ostensibly a startup/tech oriented visa program. I certainly have the impression that many founders and developers have only bachelor's degrees, or are self taught.
I have a bachelor's degree in EE but do software now and am mostly self taught in that department. I have met my fair share of incompetent programmers with masters degrees though. I like the idea of moving to Europe and working there for a while, but I get the distinct impression they are far more concerned with degrees and credentials over there and I am not sure I would fit in.
Yes, I think the term has been abused and overused, but it's equally wrong in the other direction to dismiss all tech talent simply for lacking a graduate degree.
If they're looking to attract founders, founders will obviously care about exits. It might not be the #1 concern, but it's up there. France has a reputation for very high taxes and a seeming contempt for very large cash windfalls. I'd be curious how they plan to improve this international image.
They're requiring masters degrees for entrepreneur visas. One thing Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Lei Jun, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Travis Kalanic and Cheng Wei all have in common is a lack of a master's degree.
Why would France add a restriction to their visa that would have eliminated the founders of Amazon, Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX, Apple, Xiaomi, Facebook, Microsoft, Oracle, Uber and Didi Chuxing?
Are they pinning all their hopes on someone following the path of Larry Page or Robin Li, except choosing to immigrate to France to start their search engine? Are the people who made the rule just not aware how few of the top tech company founders have master's degrees? Is it some kind of intentional low-beta strategy to try to scoop up a bunch of more certain, smaller wins?
I truly don't understand what kind of reasoning went into to this program. It's just making France look out of touch.
Edit: ok apparently the founder needs money and it's employees who all need masters degrees (nearly as bad).
It doesn't make sense in French to look for less than a master level, whereas the standard is the bachelor in the USA.
"Everyone" has a master in France. The curriculum is 5 years straight in France (either 2 or 5 years). There isn't really such a thing as a 3-4 years bachelor level in engineering.
Some numbers: 60% of programmers have at least a master in France, less than 30% in the USA.
Ah, that's good it doesn't apply to founders. On the other hand, it's still pretty disastrous if your startup does well and you need to hire people. Nearly all the key early hires at the companies I listed above also lacked master's degrees.
> "This is just silly."
It's worse than silly. It's a baked in design flaw that literally would have prevented the foreign successes the program is in theory trying to replicate. It is silly to heavily credentialize an industry focused on doing new things, but it's also destructive.
The US has some enormous hurdles related to immigration, but it also has a network. Once someone is looking at the world outside SV/SF, there are many other places in the world trying to attract startups. Some of them have both stronger tech scenes and less regressive (though I still wouldn't say visionary) immigration requirements.
Why would a founder pick someplace like France, instead of South Korea or Australia where they could have a path to citizenship and a much easier time hiring talent?
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You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy".
That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.
* I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country
* I opened bank account on 4th day
* I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all
Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment.
Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters!
* software developer: http://grnh.se/0fotp8
* front-end developer: http://grnh.se/xl658q
* product owner (e-commerce): http://grnh.se/6gfqds
* ux designer: http://grnh.se/1qhylg
Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later.
Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments.
Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license.
Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.
And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes.
And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story.
Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.
I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour.
Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.
I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.
Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.
I won't go in to details (unless someone asks) but one thing that I want to share is a great option for expats needing a French bank account quickly. It's called Compte Nickel: a fairly new (at the time) startup that is essentially a small bank-like system which requires only a French mailing address, a passport, €20, and a visit to a participating newsagent.
That gets you a bank account with the required RIB so you can get your salary paid, use ATMs, make online payments, and the like. It comes with a Mastercard debit card which the newsagent hands you upon setup in-store. The account has some limits on transactions to prevent laundering but nothing we found a hindrance. It costs €20 a year. If anyone is having issues getting a French bank account just so they can get on their feet, it will be of use to you:
https://compte-nickel.fr
We've since moved back to Germany, which was a huge relief. Being able to just email the local immigration office to give some info or agree on an appointment time... unthinkable in France.
I have worked in France for most of my career so far. My first hand experience is of course limited (I only have 5 years of experience) but I really feel that the FrenchTech is overblown. There are some great startups but they are extremely rare.
We have started hiring non french people in the startup I work for one year ago and the culture clash is tremendous. Things that have bothered me for a while are doubly strange for them :
- Everything takes a LOT of time and nobody prioritizes making the process more efficient. There are many bottlenecks.. after discussing with colleagues in non French companies, they have all found solutions in order to solve them. Here there is no will to do so. So it can take weeks to merge simple changes.
- very large aversion to new technology. Pretty much constantly lagging 1 to 2 years behind the rest of the community.
-LOTS of office politics
I don't expect any of these to become perfect in another country but I am more than ready for a change of air.
If by "technology" you mean web framework, then that sounds like a feature!
I know the DMV is the ultimate symbol, to a lot of Americans, of the ultimate administrative clutter. But trust me, if any 'public services' of France could run with just half the throughput and efficiency of the DMV, people would be more than happy with that :P
-> For the ultimate kafkaesque experience, just try get a car registration outside of Paris intra-murros, say, Neuf-Trois. You'll discover an alternative universe and might realize that hey, the DMV is awesome!
Is it a joke? Never heard of that in 30 years..
[0] http://www.lemonde.fr/emploi/article/2017/03/16/la-fin-de-la...
In certain industries, the company pays for you to go and get a thorough physical checkup every two years, on company time.
It's the unions that negotiated this, it's a benefit to the employee.
Also worth noting that I've had to do this in other countries; I'd say it's more problematic elsewhere.
I would however say that yes, the French bureaucracy is something else entirely. But if you are friendly to them and show your face things will happen faster.
And it's only in Paris if you're in Paris, otherwise you'll do it wherever you live.
I don't really see what's shocking, it's just to make sure you're medically apt to do the job your employer is asking you to, and that your employer provides the right environment to work in a way that's safe for you.
For tech jobs it boils down mostly to workspace ergonomics, and a sane work schedule.
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"Dependent children under the age of 18 do NOT need a residence permit. However, an underage child travel document (‘document de circulation pour étranger mineur’ – DCEM) must be obtained at your local Préfecture after your arrival in France."
In my prefecture we have been trying to get a DCEM for each child for 1 year. The prefecture is not doing them at all, and they do not know when they will again. And the prefecture says the children cannot re-enter France without them. Our immigration lawyer says "as a practical matter" border control will allow the kids back in if you fly into France (but maybe not another EU country).
The residency for kids is a pretty good deal, but you just may not actually be able to get it (maybe in another year?).
But I actually do really like France. I want to stay here awhile. I've done everything above board, legally, legitimately. The people are really great, not like the stereotypes. It's worth all the hassle I believe, but I think people need to be aware of the reality of the difficulty of the process that France is advertising in trying to attract foreign tech workers.
2. For people from inside the Eurozone, it might still not work: I've had a work contract in a Eurozone country that specified that I had to have a bank account in that country. Not sure why, not sure whether it's legal, but not necessarily something you want to fight.
3. In France, it would not work as a practical matter. In other countries, you give people your IBAN in an email and you're set; in France, they require you to give them something called a RIB, which is a piece of paper (or a PDF) issued by your bank carrying your IBAN. Foreign banks do not issue things that would be accepted as a RIB in France, so your employer would say they can't transfer your money. Stupid? Yes! Everyday reality in France? Also yes, sadly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
If my experience a few years ago with the auto entrepreneur scheme and URSAFF are anything to go by, you'll need a lot of patience, the ability to speak half decent French and a sense of humour if you want to avoid ripping all your hair out :)
I love France (have even married one of their citizens!) but this is a country where in 2013 we moved from one department to another and had to close our bank accounts with the branches in the first department and open new ones in the second department because there was no way to migrate accounts between branches of the same bank o_O We literally had to post cheques to a friend in the old department so he could deposit them while we waited for the old accounts to be closed and new ones opened (complete with different cards, chequebooks, account numbers - the works).
Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch. Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one).
Having said all of that, France is awesome despite its flaws and there are lots of reasons to be hopeful with Macron now piloting the ship.
After having lived and worked in multiple EU countries, I'm convinced that language is the single biggest barrier to true freedom of movement of workers in the EU. In Germany, for example, you cannot assume any daily task can be accomplished without the German language. You're then faced with either constantly dealing with communication problems with everything in your life, or paying the significant opportunity cost of learning a new language -- which you will likely never learn to high enough degree to fluently use in business, and which won't help you in the next country in which you live.
What is needed is a joint common language (English) that everyone in the EU learns starting in kindergarten and in which you're guaranteed state services in every member state. But there is no chance the French and German speakers would ever agree to that, it is like a religious issue.
Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe.
(this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).
Debatable. I feel that business level fluency/proficiency is easy: limited vocabulary, limited jargon, overall formal tone.
Getting to a conversational level in any kind of social settings, now that's the hard part of any language, in my opinion.
Example: Some court proceedings in Germany can now be done in English:
http://www.fgvw.de/en/news/archive-2015/the-introduction-of-...
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Personally, I've moved two times and I didn't have to do the close/open/cheque stuff. And the direct debit authorization I've since before the first move keep working.
As for cheques, It's very rarely used, I still use the first chequebook I was given when I opened my bank account more than 10 years ago. I've never experienced the "pay by cheque" at the super market since I was a child. Cheques are used in very few situations, the last I encountered was for the "solde de tout compte" when I left my previous job.
As for cheque usage, 4 years ago (when I was there) loads of people were still using them (young and old). This is in central and south France (no idea about Paris, never lived there).
If you belong to the Christian minority, expect to be harassed by those you say "We need to respect all religions". Everyday you'll face jokes like "priests rape kids, followers are stuck-up, donating is worse than sponsoring a mafia".
President Macron himself is seen as a capitalist enemy by those 20-50%, and this Mélenchon group explicitly denies his legitimacy. There are currently very active groups and many of my friends are preparing the ground on Facebook (God knows what kind of riots they're preparing for September – you think I'm kidding? wait and watch).
French people are entirely hostile to privately-owned companies and average-wealthy managers, so, no, I wouldn't recommend my country for entrepreneurs, not until they make peace with a reasonable dose of capitslism. And that's where I have hope for Macron: If he does the right things, he may tame anti-capitalism sentiments a bit and show that hard works does bring money.
In other words, 80% don't. I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make and I don't want to interpret your words as a claim that 20% is far too much. Until we get an implementation of Capitalism that proves its superiority to all other models and demonstrates its ability to regulate itself, it's probably safe to tolerate alternative points of views don't you think? If it provides moderation and balance, I'm not against it personally.
That said, the de-facto, pavlovian hostility you are probably referring to is certainly annoying: and what I mean is that sometimes it is just purely out of doctrine, without a single argument intelligent or not. But hey, you have the same thing at the other end of the spectrum, on the other side of the Atlantic where for example, the words 'socialist' or 'communist' are slurs.
Who would mug you?!?
I can't speak for all ages, but the youth are incredibly passionate about politics and many hold strong anti capitalism beliefs and will enthusiastically riot at the chance to have their opinions heard.
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The lecture is 30 years old but everything going on today makes sense after hearing him lay things out. The division in society on race, gender, income, etc is by design to keep the plebes at each others throats.
Fingers crossed.
You can use an online bank if you think you'll move around a lot. Plus today it has become very easy to switch bank thanks to Loi Macron, and most bank now take charge of everything to attract new customers.
All developers/people speak: French, English and Dutch.
The only thing is, the taxes are very high. But on the other hand, the health care is awesome and cheap. Flemish people are also known to be hard workers
Anekdote: I'm Flemish, but this is what polls/research of EU-countries also conclude.
The things you hear in the news, is mostly when the Southern part of Belgium is involved ( strikes, political crisis, Brussels-Molenbeek). Due to differences between North and South Belgium ( south = very socialist and even communism since recently, where north is more liberal)
I actually believe the northern part of Belgium has more in common with the Netherlands, than the southern part..
PS. I'll probably be downvoted, but please add your opinion. I know it's very controversial. That doesn't mean i'm wrong. If you think i'm wrong, i'm open for alternative opinions as always.
Also in actual Flanders, some people in the administration will only ever talk to you in Dutch, even if they understand English and French.
> Why did we need to migrate accounts? Because you could only deposit cheques in the same department as your local branch.
Not true for all banks, national ones (like BNP) always allowed to deposit anywhere, and for most you could mail directly to the account branch (no need to go through a friend). Also, online banks solve this nicely.
> Why were we depositing cheques?! Because half of France (including my fiancées' employer at the time) still uses them for everything (which is also great fun if you're in a rush in Super-U and the person in front decides to pay with one).
"Half" is overemphatic, even for 2013. This is not the case anymore, huge majority now pays via chip and pin cards and waiting in line is not so much of a problem with self-checkout machines.
Some doctors are also hell-bent on not taking carte vitale and "tiers payant", nor credit card. In such cases checks are practical.
Bureaucracies though are a completely different beast. Better value? Happier customers? They care not a bit. You need different levers to (sloooowly) move them.
As an example, all the online banking start ups belong ( or were created as subsidiaries of) big banks. All of them.
We eventually transferred to a large multinational bank. It requires us to keep a lot of funds in their account. But I can deposit a check anywhere in France.
Don't they have the printers that will fill in your check?
I also wonder how appealing these international visa programs will be in light of the changing US immigration and visa system. Will the USA lose out on talent? Will the USA lose on half of the next generation of billion dollar+ startups? Assuming the past trend mentioned in WSJ persists, anyway
https://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2016/03/17/study-immigrants-fou...
I think that ambiguity is by design, to attract certain type of demographics for people falling under the employees and founders groups. (i.e. young, unattached, adventurous)
For people falling into the investor group, I seriously doubt getting visa renewed after 4 year will be an issue as long as they are willing to bring in additional capital.
It says right there on the page that it's renewable. Also, if you are in the country legally for four years, and you work and pay taxes, it should be easy to get some other kind of permanent residence permit. After one more year, you can even apply for citizenship.
A decade back i finished my high school in a French speaking country with honors and got an admission in a French university to study Business Administration. I've been refused the entry visa for some imaginary reasons. Unofficially i was part of the group of potential foreign students who may refuse to go back to their home-country after graduation. I then stayed in my country went to university to get a "useless" B.A. that couldn't help me to face the socio-economic realities of the world. In 2015 i read a book "Googled" by Ken Auletta that shacked me to the core and pushed me to learn how to code. I'm now a self taught programmer with skills that will benefit any French Tech startup and products' projects that could create 1000s of jobs in France if i decide to start my companies there. That said, I would not go to France because it didn't welcome me when i wanted to get in order to acquire knowledge. Now France "needs" me to come and boost their shrinking economy with the tech-knowledge i have acquired elsewhere. Sorry Monsieur le President, I ain't coming.
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Or later, they could click on the 'Investor' link
Other engineering fields have less opportunities for self-taught people and innovation in those fields are driven by people with higher degrees.
Thereby proving that the emperor has no clothes.
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We don't have people calling themselves engineers just because can type a few lines of code.
I guess if you're a bureaucrat designing a visa, requiring a degree makes sense. But saying that people lacking degrees aren't good engineers is crazy.
The education system should be giving you clues on who you should hire. But it doesn't fulfill its mission at all.
An engineer is anyone who uses technology to solve a problem. Now there's a massive spectrum of quality there, but a piece of paper or two and some classwork doesn't make you an engineer. Or even a particularly good engineer. Just the other day I explained how Hash Tables work to someone with a Masters.
I do a lot of hiring and, in my experience, having a degree (or indeed the class/score of said degree) has no relation to the real-world abilities of candidates.
Why would France add a restriction to their visa that would have eliminated the founders of Amazon, Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX, Apple, Xiaomi, Facebook, Microsoft, Oracle, Uber and Didi Chuxing?
Are they pinning all their hopes on someone following the path of Larry Page or Robin Li, except choosing to immigrate to France to start their search engine? Are the people who made the rule just not aware how few of the top tech company founders have master's degrees? Is it some kind of intentional low-beta strategy to try to scoop up a bunch of more certain, smaller wins?
I truly don't understand what kind of reasoning went into to this program. It's just making France look out of touch.
Edit: ok apparently the founder needs money and it's employees who all need masters degrees (nearly as bad).
Only the employee's visa requires a masters degree. All the big names you dropped were people that never intended to be employees.
I'm not sure what the problem is.
> It's just making France look worse.
This is just silly.
It doesn't make sense in French to look for less than a master level, whereas the standard is the bachelor in the USA.
"Everyone" has a master in France. The curriculum is 5 years straight in France (either 2 or 5 years). There isn't really such a thing as a 3-4 years bachelor level in engineering.
Some numbers: 60% of programmers have at least a master in France, less than 30% in the USA.
> "This is just silly."
It's worse than silly. It's a baked in design flaw that literally would have prevented the foreign successes the program is in theory trying to replicate. It is silly to heavily credentialize an industry focused on doing new things, but it's also destructive.
The US has some enormous hurdles related to immigration, but it also has a network. Once someone is looking at the world outside SV/SF, there are many other places in the world trying to attract startups. Some of them have both stronger tech scenes and less regressive (though I still wouldn't say visionary) immigration requirements.
Why would a founder pick someplace like France, instead of South Korea or Australia where they could have a path to citizenship and a much easier time hiring talent?
It's sad, there is so much myths and fantasies around those specific guys.