virtual_void (u/virtual_void)

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

johnnyanmac · 2 years ago

>How do you stand on the idea that someone desperately poor, who cannot afford a text book that would be transformative to their life, pirates said book. Is that still immoral?

immoral, no. Unethical, yes.

That said, I'm glad libraries of all kinds (lending, little free, bookstore giveaways) help give more ethical access to such resources. You don't need the latest and greatest textbook to obtain knowledge.

With all that said, were talking about deluxe media, not foundational knowledge. why does the topic always shift to hyperole when talking about a song/movie/game being pirated? Are we really comparing pirating The Avengers (2012) to finding a way to learn arithmetic?

virtual_void · 2 years ago

Morals and ethics are similar but not the same, i would agree.

They suffer the same problem though in that morals and ethics do not have one universal standard. So something may be unethical to you but not to me but both be in the bounds of reason, or indeed the law.

You seem to accept that there is indeed ambiguity if you believe there to be a difference between a book pirated for a reason that helps someone, and a movie for entertainment in terms of piracy.

In addition, whilst you and i have access to libraries, this is very far from being common the world over.

Why then is it hyperbole? It’s just a simple example to show that piracy can in some cases harm no one and help someone. To wit: not all piracy is bad.

You claim that is unethical - which is all well and good, we do not share quite the same set of ethical values.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

I have in a dozen other places, forgive me if I don't trust you enough to repeat myself yet again.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

No. No you haven’t, at least not a singular unambiguous answer.

A lack of trust is not a reasonable reason to refuse to state a single verb or noun. Trust isn’t really a part of this - we are strangers on the internet.

I don’t believe that you are engaging with the discussion honestly because this is an extremely simple question to answer.

I believe this is because you have realised that you cannot defend the position you have taken.

It’s been an interesting discussion.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

I don't enjoy your tone; it's not what I feel that matters. What matters is what is or isn't the case.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

I was simply using the word feel as a synonym for the word believe. No injury intended.

You still have not answered the very simple question though, and i might be a bit slow off the mark but i don’t see it answered elsewhere in this thread.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

We don't have to discuss anything if you don't like, you replied to me.

Also that's not what trespass means. You don't "deprive" someone of their land when you walk on it without permission, and you don't "deprive" someone of their song when you pirate it.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

Apologies, I wasn’t suggesting i was closing down the conversation. I am trying to find a specific thing in the social contract that you feel is violated. We agree it’s not stealing it seems.

Re trespass, that’s not what the specific tort you referred to means. A chattel is a moveable form of property. You’re talking about the colloquial version of trespass. Happy to talk about that conception of it.

Is the idea of trespass the specific thing you feel is being violated in the social contract? If not, what is?

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

It’s called trespass, I believe the legal phrase is “trespass of chattel” but IANALY.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

No, that tort specifically relates to depriving someone of, otherwise damaging their property.

We've agreed it's not stealing. We've agreed that not all piracy is immoral, for some definition of immoral.

I think we can agree that this specific tort does not apply.

Which specific thing in the social contract, some simple verb such as "stealing" are you equating piracy with. Then we'll have something concrete to discuss I think.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

Sorry but no, this is not a vague concept that we do not share; morality is indeed agreed upon in large strokes, by the very virtue of us interacting in this forum, we already are implicitly agreeing to a number of shared values. For one, you’re not calling me insulting names, you’re accepting I have a point of view, etc.

What I am claiming presumes only that you live in a modern society, and therefore you participate in the social contract. Given that, what I am saying is then a conclusion of that.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

You’re claiming that all piracy is immoral or breaches a social contract. Then you claim exceptions are ok. Thus not all piracy is immoral.

I am trying to get to specifics but you keep waving your hands about this stuff.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

Nope, stealing involves depravation.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

Then which specific thing in your conception of the social contact are you equating piracy with?

The post states that piracy isn’t stealing and you agree.

There must be some other thing in your mind that is equivalent.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

Not at all, I’m claiming piracy generally is immoral. I’m sure you can find exceptions, but the general case is the problem.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

Without a clear definition of morality that is considered universal you cannot make any claims about generality.

There are many examples of piracy where no one loses out yet someone does benefit.

Painting such a complex subject with such a broad brush makes it seem like we’re just talking about your particular feelings rather than something universal.

Which is fine, but you’re making claims of generality without presenting a cogent argument.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

It’s actually very important that we agree on the structure of the social contract, and this is not “my” system at all, but a description of the system we both rely on to not get stabbed in the street for our lunch money.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

Are you are relying on that terminology because you believe piracy to actually be stealing? Depriving a person of something they already own.

virtual_void commented on If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing pluralistic.net/2023/12/0... · Posted by u/jay_kyburz

WendyTheWillow · 2 years ago

You’re presuming all pirates only pirate what they otherwise would not purchase, which is impossible to claim credibly.

virtual_void · 2 years ago

And you are presuming that no pirates do by claiming that all piracy is immoral.

How do you stand on the idea that someone desperately poor, who cannot afford a text book that would be transformative to their life, pirates said book. Is that still immoral?