Happy new year from Ireland!
Readit Newsrwallace commented on Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg ziglang.org/news/migratin... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
It's okay to bring some "natural" language in technical communication. It feels more humane. All the whitewashed corporate language, riddled marketing bullshit feels so soul dead.
Sure. If you feel the need to write "this is shitty code", fair enough, I'm fine with making allowances for that kind of language. But please leave it at that, instead of also insulting the people who wrote it. There are, unfortunately, plenty of ways for bad incentives to result in competent people creating bad products.
rwallace commented on Cybersecurity training programs don't prevent phishing scams today.ucsd.edu/story/cybe... · Posted by u/divbzero
This sounds quite short sighted to me. You can’t imagine needing links being sent in everyday workflow at the office, yet I can’t imagine not using links in emails.
How would people interact with vendors and salespeople that send links to product specs, troubleshooting articles, etc?
In general, if a program is not a Web browser, I do not want that program getting clever with displaying a URL as an active link. Just show it as the URL, https prefix and all, so I can see where it will be taking me if I copy it into the browser. (This is one of my very few gripes with Google docs.)
rwallace commented on Seeing like a software company seangoedecke.com/seeing-l... · Posted by u/praptak
My original comment was one of those "if you know, you know" things.
Topics age out very quickly on this site.
I have two lengths: aphorism or six pages. The graf that you so kindly praise raises more questions than it answers and I am not comfortable with that.
I am also not comfortable with spoon-feeding my own views, which are evidently idiosyncratic. At medium length, that is the effect. To marshal citations and evidence in order to re-attain objectivity really does explode the level of effort. It is worthwhile, but this is a quick-hit forum, things roll off the front page usually in about an hour or two.
The flip side of that is that there will be other opportunities.
Fair enough! If you ever have the time and inclination to write it up as a blog post or such, I would love to read it.
rwallace commented on Seeing like a software company seangoedecke.com/seeing-l... · Posted by u/praptak
Speaking as one such customer, it is all false. Again, a detailed refutation would run to such length as to abuse the hospitality of this forum.
I disagree with your second sentence above. I think it is shallow dismissals that are inappropriate here. Conversely, I have upvoted a number of long explanations of interesting topics.
If you don't have time to write a detailed refutation, that's entirely understandable! But if you do, I would love to read it.
I did appreciate your paragraph length comment on the matter elsewhere in this thread.
Even if you just go for big-O, don't forget that a resizable array won't give you even amortized O(1) delete in many cases. This alone is likely prohibitive unless you can bound the elements in the container to a small number.
And if you're trying to trade away good big-O for better cache locality, don't forget that in many cases, you're dealing with stateful objects that need to be put into the list. That means you likely need to have a list or queue of pointers to these objects. And no matter how flat or cache-friendly the queue is, adding this indirection is similarly cache-unfriendly whenever you have to actually access the state inside the container.
Or unless delete is a rare operation. So yeah, to make the best decisions here, you need to know expected numbers as well as expected access patterns.
As far as I can see, you are indeed going to incur one extra memory access apart from the object itself, for any design other than just 'Temporarily flag the object deleted, sweep deleted objects in bulk later' (which would only be good if deleted objects are uncommon). It still matters how many extra memory accesses; deleting an object from a doubly linked list accesses two other objects.
It also matters somewhat how many cache lines each object takes up. I say 'somewhat' because even if an object is bulky, you might be able to arrange it so that the most commonly accessed fields fit in one or two cache lines at the beginning.
I’m sorry, I did not intend to accuse you of being part of the evangelical community. Your article only prompted the thought I shared.
On the technical point, I think I do disagree, but open to changing my mind. What would be better? I’m working on an async runtime currently, written in C, and I’m using several intrusive doubly linked lists because of their properties I mentioned.
No problem!
As to what would be better - this is also a reply to your sibling comments above - I don't have a single across-the-board solution; the equivalent of std::vector everywhere is fine for some kinds of application code, but not necessarily for system code. Instead, I would start by asking questions.
What kinds of entities are you dealing with, what kinds of collections, and, critically, how many entities along each dimension, to an order of magnitude, p50 and p99? What are your typical access patterns? What are your use cases, so that you can figure out what figures of merit to optimize for? How unpredictable will be the adding of more use cases in the future?
In most kinds of application code, it's okay to just go for big-O, but for performance critical system code, you also need to care about constant factors. As an intuition primer, how many bytes can you memcpy in the time it takes for one cache miss? If your intuition for performance was trained in the eighties and nineties, as mine initially was, the answer may be larger than you expect.
> The last time I used [a doubly linked list] was in the nineties. I know the Linux kernel uses them, but that design was also laid down in the nineties; if you were designing a kernel from scratch today, you would probably not do it that way.
This and sibling comments about the supposed uselessness or outdatedness of linked lists taught me something about the disconnect between many systems engineers resistant to Rust and many members of the (evangelical) Rust community.
To address the technical topic first: a doubly linked list is what you reach for when you’re looking for an intrusive data structure with fast append and fast delete. You need to iterate over it, but don’t need random access. Queues where you may need to remove elements. Think a list of completions that can be cancelled.
Why an intrusive data structure? Because you don’t want to, or can’t allocate. Because you want only a non-owning reference to the object, and you don’t want to have to manage any other lifetimes or dynamic (potentially unbounded, or arbitrarily bounded) allocations. Intrusive data structures are a great tool to minimize allocations, and to keep allocations (and ownership) logically separated across modules.
And now onto the cultural topic. That a member of the Rust community might not know this (which is of course totally fine) is what taught me something, which was maybe obvious to many: Rust brings safety to a C++ style language and audience. For the same reasons many dislike C++, many dislike Rust. For the same reasons many would opt for C over C++ when they have the choice (either across all their projects or for certain projects), many continue to opt for C over Rust.
Rust will not be taking over systems programming for the same reasons C++ did not. Well, by the numbers, it probably did (and Rust probably will too), so maybe better to say that it will not stamp out C for systems programming for the same reasons C++ did not. And it’s not just because of the stubbornness of C programmers.
Systems programming has 2 cultures and practice groups: the C camp, and the C++ camp. The C++ camp is a big tent. I’d argue it includes Rust and Swift (and maybe D). Zig belongs to the C camp.
Safety is important, and maybe Rust has the right model for it, but it is not a solution for the C camp. It likely did not intend to be, and again, by the numbers, replacing C++ is probably the more important task.
To clarify a couple of things:
I'm aware of the reasons Linux uses doubly linked lists. I'm still of the opinion this design decision made a lot of sense in the 1990s, and would make less sense in a new project today. You may disagree, and that's fine! Engineering is constrained by hard truths, but within those constraints, is full of judgment calls.
I'm not a member of the evangelical Rust community. I'm not proclaiming 'thou shalt rewrite it all in Rust'. Maybe you have good reasons to use something else. That's fine.
But if you are considering Rust, and are concerned about its ability to handle cyclic data structures, there are ways to do it, that don't involve throwing out all the benefits the language offers.
Basically, you have to have out of order/speculative execution if you ultimately want the best performance on general/integer workloads. And once you have that, timing information is going to leak from one process into another, and that timing information can be used to infer the contents of memory. As far as I can see, there is no way to block this in software. No substitute for the CPU knowing 'that page should not be accessible to this process, activate timing leak mitigation'.