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ragnese commented on Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"   phoronix.com/news/GNOME-M... · Posted by u/throwaway7489
pseudalopex · a month ago
You raised GTK stewardship. I replied about GTK stewardship. Why raise GTK stewardship and complain replies are not about Mutter exclusively? Why raise GTK stewardship and dismiss it saying so be it?

The 2 paragraphs you quoted did not represent the 10 you did not.

An Xfce developer saying they can't recommend GTK for new projects outside the GNOME umbrella had information your comment did not. It was not basically exactly what you said.

ragnese · a month ago
Unfortunately, the context starts getting lost as we get deeper into discussion threads like this, but originally, I brought up GTK stewardship because I felt that the top few comments in this thread started to conflate the various projects developed by the GNOME organization. The original HN post was about Mutter, and the first few comments in this reply chain were about software being customizable, etc. Those could've been about whether it's okay or not for Mutter to lose flexibility. But, the one I replied to started complaining about software "imposing limitations on the rest of the ecosystem".

That's when and why I decided to point out that there are different kinds of software projects, and they have different goals and priorities. It's like the old "library vs. application" code: libraries are generic and reusable, and should be written as such, whereas applications are specific and focused.

I brought up GTK simply as an example of a "library project", for which critique of its reusability is warranted, as a counter-example to Mutter, which is an application. Complaining about Mutter's effect on "the ecosystem" is silly. It wouldn't make any less sense to complain about XTerm's effect on the ecosystem by it not supporting Wayland. Anybody in their right mind would just say "So, use one of the other 10,000 terminal emulators in Wayland instead of XTerm"--and rightly so. But, because Mutter is a GNOME project, and GTK is also a GNOME project, I think that people lose focus on what they're talking about.

I did engage with you about GTK because it's interesting, but my point in bringing up GTK was specifically to say "Yeah, those complaints might make sense if we were talking about GTK, but since we're talking about Mutter, they do not." to the comment I replied to.

ragnese commented on How often does Python allocate?   zackoverflow.dev/writing/... · Posted by u/ingve
tialaramex · a month ago
Actually because of provenance the C pointers are their only type which isn't just basically the machine integers again.

A char is just a machine integer with implementation specified signedness (crazy), bools are just machine integers which aren't supposed to have values other than 0 or 1, and the floating point types are just integers reinterpreted as binary fractions in a strange way.

Addresses are just machine integers of course, but pointers have provenance which means that it matters why you have the pointer, whereas for the machine integers their value is entirely determined by the bits making them up.

ragnese · a month ago
It's been a long time since I've done C/C++, but I'm not sure what you're saying with regard to provenance. I was pretty sure that you were able to cast an arbitrary integer value into a pointer, and it really didn't have to "come from" anywhere. So, all I'm saying is that, under-the-hood, a C pointer really is just an integer. Saying that a pointer means something beyond the bits that make up the value is no more relevant than saying a bool means something other than its integer value, which is also true.
ragnese commented on How often does Python allocate?   zackoverflow.dev/writing/... · Posted by u/ingve
jonhohle · a month ago
I’ve tried optimizing some python that’s in the hot path of a build system and a few dozen operations out of over 2K nodes in the ninja graph account for 25-30% of the total build time.

I’ve found python optimization to be nearly intractable. I’ve spent a significant amount of time over the past two decades optimizing C, Java, Swift, Ruby, SQL and I’m sure more. The techniques are largely the same. In Python, however, everything seems expensive. Field lookup on an object, dynamic dispatch, string/array concatenation. After optimization, the code is no longer “pythonic” (which has come to mean slow, in my vernacular).

Are there any good resources on optimizing python performance while keeping idiomatic?

ragnese · a month ago
> Are there any good resources on optimizing python performance while keeping idiomatic?

At the risk of sounding snarky and/or unhelpful, in my experience, the answer is that you don't try to optimize Python code beyond fixing your algorithm to have better big-O properties, followed by calling out to external code that isn't written in Python (e.g., NumPy, etc).

But, I'm a hater. I spent several years working with Python and hated almost every minute of it for various reasons. Very few languages repulse me the way Python does: I hate the syntax, the semantics, the difficulty of distribution, and the performance (memory and CPU, and is GIL disabled by default yet?!)...

ragnese commented on How often does Python allocate?   zackoverflow.dev/writing/... · Posted by u/ingve
whilenot-dev · a month ago
A bit beside the point, but this caught my eye:

> Integers are likely the most used data type of any program, that means a lot of heap allocations.

I would guess strings come first, then floats, then booleans, and then integers. Are there any data available on that?

ragnese · a month ago
Ints probably get a big boost in languages where the only built-in for-loop syntax involves incrementing an index variable, like C. And, speaking of C, specifically, even the non-int types are actually ints or isomorphic to ints: enums, bools, char, pointers, arrays (which are just pointers if you squint), etc...

But, otherwise, I'd agree that strings probably win, globally.

ragnese commented on Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"   phoronix.com/news/GNOME-M... · Posted by u/throwaway7489
pseudalopex · a month ago
Would you like to read what an Xfce developer said about GTK stewardship?[1][2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40568184

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40568042

ragnese · a month ago
I read them, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, or why it's directed at my comment. I mean that genuinely.

This Xfce dev says that GTK4 is less capable than GTK3, and they feel that GTK5 will continue in that direction. They also acknowledge certain things in the first comment:

> [0] Full disclosure: I'm an Xfce developer, and have been disappointed with the direction GTK has been taking for some time. I don't begrudge them their prerogative to do what they need/want to achieve their own goals with the toolkit they've built and maintain. But it really is making life more difficult for me.

>

> [1] Part of the argument is that Wayland doesn't natively support things like cross-process embedding, so a cross-platform toolkit shouldn't have these types of widgets (the classic problem of only being able to support the lowest common denominator). But a) you can absolutely build something like that for Wayland (something I've been working on, though it requires tens of thousands of lines of code to do), and b) with other changes, it's incredibly difficult and possibly impossible to even implement the XEMBED protocol on GTK4, for people who do only care about X11.

If the GNOME guys took out stuff from GTK4 or 5 for bad reasons, then I don't like that, either. Which is basically exactly what I said. However, it sounds like some of these changes would be hard to do and maintain well, such as cross-process embedding. Perhaps the GNOME devs made a decision to focus their surely limited resources toward things they think will be long-lasting. And, perhaps, by their estimation, trying to support Wayland and X11 by adding (and maintaining) tens of thousands of lines of code would be a big burden--especially if they believe that X11 is not going to be super-relevant in the near future. I don't agree with that estimation, and I assume that it'll be a very long time before X11 isn't necessary anymore, but so be it.

All that said, it still has nothing to do with Mutter, which is why I replied to the comment that I did. Because GTK, and Mutter, and GNOME Shell, and GNOME apps, and non-GNOME GTK apps, are all different things, and this post was about Mutter.

ragnese commented on Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"   phoronix.com/news/GNOME-M... · Posted by u/throwaway7489
marginalia_nu · a month ago
When I complain about Gnome driving away users with hostility, it's mainly their GTK stewardship I talk of.

That, and things like primarily designing the interface for a touch screen, despite PC touch screens not really taking off. Very out of touch.

ragnese · a month ago
Point taken on GTK, and I can't really disagree since I haven't even poked at writing a GTK GUI in many years.

But, you still couldn't resist complaining about the UI implementations, which sounds more like complaints about GNOME apps and GNOME Shell. Who cares if you think that GNOME Shell looks like it accommodates touch screens? Firefox, for example, uses GTK and doesn't seem to look like a touch screen UI to me as I'm typing into this text box.

ragnese commented on Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"   phoronix.com/news/GNOME-M... · Posted by u/throwaway7489
yjftsjthsd-h · a month ago
Yeah, no. Let me fix that:

Openness, customisation and freedom of choice are great—unless you are offering a software that absolutely refuses to allow customization and freedom of choice, and actively attempts to impose its limitations on the rest of the ecosystem[0], in which case you will get pushback.

[0] My favorite example is https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685#no1

ragnese · a month ago
There are multiple angles. As the stewards of GTK, they should, IMO, try to keep it flexible and customizable to whatever extent is manageable and reasonable. This post is about Mutter, which is a window manager, which should have very little to do with the app "ecosystem". They can, and should, do whatever the hell they want with Mutter, GNOME Shell, Nautilus/Files, etc.

Even in the link you posted, they're talking about GNOME, not GTK.

ragnese commented on Gnome Mutter Now "Completely Drops the Whole X11 Back End"   phoronix.com/news/GNOME-M... · Posted by u/throwaway7489
marginalia_nu · a month ago
A decade of a their trademark hard line "you're holding it wrong" ethos will likely already have driven away what people might object to this sort of change.
ragnese · a month ago
Probably yes. And, good. It's free software. I still use GNOME Shell, and the minute the make a change that I don't want to deal with, I'll change to something else. Easy as that.
ragnese commented on Embracing the parallel coding agent lifestyle   simonwillison.net/2025/Oc... · Posted by u/jbredeche
joshvm · 2 months ago
My suspicion is that it's because the feedback loop is so fast. Imagine if you were tasked with supervising 2 co-workers who gave you 50-100 line diffs to review every minute. The uncanny valley is that the code is rarely good enough to accept blindly, but the response is quick enough that it feels like progress. And perhaps an human impulse to respond to the agent? And a 10-person team? In reality those 10 people would review each other's PRs and in a good organisation you trust each other to gatekeep what gets checked in. The answer sounds like managing-agents, but none of the models are good enough to reliably say what's slop and what's not.
ragnese · 2 months ago
Yes. The first time I heard/read someone describe this idea of managing parallel agents, my very first thought was that this is only even a thing because the LLM coding tools are still slow enough that you can't really achieve a good flow state with the current state of the art. On the flip side of that, this kind of workflow is only sustainable if the agents stay somewhat slow. Otherwise, if the agents are blocking on your attention, it seems like it would feel very hectic and I could see myself getting burned out pretty quickly from having to spend my whole work time doing a round-robin on iterating each agent forward.

I say that having not tried this work flow at all, so what do I know? I mostly only use Claude Code to bounce questions off of and ask it to do reviews of my work, because I still haven't had that much luck getting it to actually write code that is complete and how I like.

ragnese commented on Potential issues in curl found using AI assisted tools   mastodon.social/@bagder/1... · Posted by u/robhlam
1970-01-01 · 3 months ago
Notice it was 'a set of tools'

They're using it correctly. It's a system of tools, not an autopilot.

ragnese · 3 months ago
Well, that's how Mr. Stenberg described it, but he wasn't the one using them. I don't know how the contributor feels about his AI tool(s).

u/ragnese

KarmaCake day2481December 14, 2017View Original