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larve commented on MCP doesn't need tools, it needs code   lucumr.pocoo.org/2025/8/1... · Posted by u/the_mitsuhiko
larve · 11 days ago
codeact is a really interesting area to explore. I expanded upon the JS platform I started sketching out in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3oJqan2Gv8 . LLMs know a million APIs out of the box and have no trouble picking more up through context, yet struggle once you give them a few tools. In fact just enabling a single tool definition "degrades" the vibes of the model.

Give them an eval() with a couple of useful libraries (say, treesitter), and they are able not only to use it well, but to write their own "tools" (functions) and save massively on tokens.

They also allow you to build "ephemeral" apps, because who wants to wait for tokens to stream and a LLM to interpret the result when you could do most tasks with a normal UI, only jumping into the LLM when fuzziness is required.

Most of my work on this is sadly private right now, but here's a few repos github.com/go-go-golems/jesus https://github.com/go-go-golems/go-go-goja that are the foundation.

larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
imiric · 2 months ago
> A computer always was a tool to enable people without technical knowledge to build software.

That's just not true.

Every past technology that claimed to enable non-technical people to build software has either failed, or was ultimately adopted by technical people. From COBOL, to BASIC, to SQL, to Low-Code, to No-Code, and others. LLMs are the latest attempt at this, and so far, they've had much more success and mainstream adoption than anything that came before.

The difference with LLMs is that it's the first time software can be built and deployed via natural language by truly anyone. This is, after all, their most advertised feature. The skills required to vibe code are reading and writing English, and basic knowledge to use a modern computer. This is a much lower skill requirement than for using any programming language, no matter how user friendly it is. Sure, there is a lot of poor quality software today already, but that will pale in comparison to the software that will be written by vibe coding. Most of the poor quality software before LLMs was limited in scope and reach. It would never have been deployed, and it would remain abandoned in some GitHub repo. Now it's getting deployed as quickly as it can be generated. "Just fucking ship it."

> LLMs are incredible engineering tools and brushing them aside as nonsense is imo doing a disservice to everybody

I'm not brushing them aside as nonsense. I use these tools as well, and have found them helpful at certain tasks. But there is a vast difference from how domain experts use these tools, and how the general public uses them. Especially people who are only now getting into software development, and whose main interest is to quickly cash out. If you think these people care about learning best software development practices, you'd be sorely mistaken. "Just fucking ship it."

larve · 2 months ago
I don't think that COBOL, BASIC, SQL have failed. They allowed many non-technical people to get started building things with computers. The skills to vibe-code (or more generally building applications with LLMs) are not reading and writing english, they are the skill of using LLMs to build applications.

In the context of people not learning "real programming", you can equate LLMs to say, wordpress plugins or making a squarespace site. Deployment of software has never been gated by how much effort it took to write it, there's millions of wordpress sites out there that get deployed way faster than an LLM can generate code.

If we care about the security of it all, then let's build the platforms to have LLMs build secure applications. If we care about the craft of programming, whatever that means in this day and age, then we need to catch people building where they are. I'm not going to tell people to not use computers because they want to cash out, they will just use whatever tool they find anyway. Might as well cash out on them cashing out while also giving them better platforms to build upon.

As far as the OP goes, these kind of security issues due to hardcoded credentials are basically the hallmark of someone shipping a (mobile|web) app for the first time, LLMs or not. The only reason the LLM actually used that is because it was possible for the user to provide it tokens, instead of replit/lovable/expo/whatever providing a proper way to provision these things.

Every cash~out fast bro out there these days uses stripe and doesn't roll their own payment processing anymore. They certainly used to do so because they just clicked a random wordpress plugin. That's what I think a more productive way to tackle the issue is.

larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
imiric · 2 months ago
> What are we doing?

Building tools that enable people with no experience to create and ship software without following any good software engineering practices.

This is in no way comparable to any previous period in the industry.

Education and support are more accessible than ever. Even the tools used to create such software can be educational. But you can't force people to learn when you give them the tools to create something without having to learn. You also can't blame them for using these tools as they're marketed. This situation is entirely in the hands of AI companies. And it's only going to get worse.

The only thing experienced software developers outside of the AI industry can do is observe from the sidelines, shake our heads, and get some laughs out of this shit show. And now we're the bad guys? Give me a break.

larve · 2 months ago
A computer always was a tool to enable people without technical knowledge to build software. That was true for me as 9 year old in the 80ies.

LLMs are incredible engineering tools and brushing them aside as nonsense is imo doing a disservice to everybody, and especially ourselves if we take our craft seriously. You can literally replace llm with php and post the same take on usenet in 1999, or whenever you started writing software.

I am tired of engineers just throwing their hands up and being defeatist while fully endorsing whatever narratives the ai industry is throwing out there, when what we are talking about is a big pile of floats that is able to generate something that makes it into the App Store. It is unprecedented in its abilities, but it’s also nothing new conceptually. It makes computer things easier.

larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
rockemsockem · 2 months ago
You didn't read the article so your opinion is void.

They spammed their girlfriend's account only which the author had them set up for exactly that purpose.

larve · 2 months ago
fair enough, i missed that part.
larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
mrkeen · 2 months ago
> What are we doing?

We are listening to our bosses tell us that "we're way behind in AI adoption" and that we need to catch up to vibe coders like this.

I don't mind these data points at all.

larve · 2 months ago
what about having vibe coders catch up to experienced software developers also using LLMs / AI tools?
larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
cityofdelusion · 2 months ago
What should happen? Probably what happened here — disclose and when the developer chooses to ignore it, bring in the shaming and pressure campaign. Someone’s right to tinker and learn doesn’t trump the rights of the victims they are exposing. Releasing code for public consumption has responsibilities and no one is entitled to make money at the expense of others. If I started selling dodgey go karts made from scrap metal to kids it would be the same principle. I am entitled to mess around and even ride it myself, but bringing other people into your orbit of incompetence is another thing.
larve · 2 months ago
maybe the article should reflect that? This just seems like "I found an app that has a security hole and I'm being a dick about it". Sure, feel free to do it, I don't think it's productive, and actually toxic. This is not a new situation, this is a pattern that we have observed since the internet existed, vibe coding or not. However, compared to 30 years ago, we now have better investigation and disclosure procedures, as well as a much better understanding of how to build secure applications and teaching people about them. It's not about this guy Christian, it's about a whole generation of new developers that are joining us more senior developers. I think that is fantastic.
larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
hammyhavoc · 2 months ago
> As for “it’s just prompting an AI”, who cares, this person built an application that people find useful.

I feel you've rather missed my point.

You said that we should educate people. I said that the app was just created via prompting. How can we impart years worth of information unto someone who is LARPing as a dev and doesn't even know the fundamentals?

This is the programming equivalent of a kid getting access to their father's gun. The only thing you can do is tell them to stop, explain why it was wrong and tell them to educate themselves. It isn't our job to educate at that level as bystanders and perhaps even victims.

larve · 2 months ago
I feel like it is. What should happen? Everybody born after 2015 is forbidden to use a computer? Or should only be allowed under strict supervision to be typing in code by hand? When people told me that in the nineties, with my linux, putting up shoddy cgi-bins, I just gave them the finger and said "whatever man".

The people who made an influence in my life and taught me how to do things properly were those that took me seriously as someone building software. And this person built software, the same way I now build software without having to think about every byte and malloc, and knowing that I don't really have to gaf about how much memory i allocate. It's fine, because we have good GCs and a lot of resources to learn about memory management when things hit the limit. The solution wasn't to say that everybody not programming C or assembly would not be allowed near a computer.

larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
throwaway150 · 2 months ago
> Not only would you contact the author first

They did. They claim that the author was not keen on fixing the problems.

> There’s also some pervasive view that handcrafted human code is somehow of superior quality which… uh…

That's completely orthogonal to the issue here. Nice bait, but I'm not biting!

Whether handcrafted or vibecoded, a service is being shipped here to actual users with lives and consequences. The developer of the service is making money. The developer owes it to themselves and their users to conduct a basic security audit. Otherwise it is gross negligence!

larve · 2 months ago
right, do you think this article is going to be very productive in that regard? If the author of the blog approached the author of the software in that manner (hey, you have kids on the app, btw I spammed them with porn humor), do you think they would wave it away?

As for the human code thing, it's not bait. I don't know if you were around in the php or early node days, but beginners were... not writing that kind of code.

I agree that the ease of vibecoding things that turn out to be useful that people do immediately want to pay money for it means that tackling security issues is a priority.

Saying that certain people shouldn't be allowed on the internet, based on your decades of experience _being_ on the internet, is just going to cause you to wither away and drown in cynicism.

larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
hammyhavoc · 2 months ago
Is it really toxic though? The dev shipped something that compromises the privacy of their users and shows zero regard for quality or law. Once you cross the line of shipping something, it's no longer a hobby thing, and likewise, this is something that Apple approved into the App Store. Both the dev and Apple failed in their due diligence.

The post points out exactly what's wrong, however, if it wasn't, it should have been sent to the dev prior to publishing the vuln(s). How can you educate somebody who doesn't actually know how to develop something? It's just prompting an AI.

The real story here is that Apple has continually slipping standards.

larve · 2 months ago
Not only would you contact the author first, but spamming users with edgy notifications is puerile at best. As for “it’s just prompting an AI”, who cares, this person built an application that people find useful. This is the world we are at now, where a new set of people can use computers to make things happen. More senior developers can rage against the clouds, but that only gets you so far. This kind of gatekeeping happens at each wave of democratization of building software.

There’s also some pervasive view that handcrafted human code is somehow of superior quality which… uh…

larve commented on "Just Fucking Ship It" (Or: On Vibecoding)   coal.sh/blog/pandu_bad... · Posted by u/coal320
larve · 2 months ago
This take is toxic. You could write the same article in 2001 and lament all the newcomers writing insecure applications in php3, or in 2009 with all the newcomers writing insecure applications with node.js.

The solution is not to aggressively shame people into doing things the way you learned to do them, but to provide not just education and support, but better tools and frameworks to build applications such as these securely.

What are we doing?

u/larve

KarmaCake day2495January 27, 2011
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