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justcool393 commented on Engineered Addictions   masonyarbrough.substack.c... · Posted by u/echollama
mystifyingpoi · 2 months ago
I like stories like these, but I think you just never hit a breaking point with the infra and approaches you got. You've never exceeded your ext4 volume size, so no need for object storage. You've never had a server die, so one dedi box is fine. You've never had a paying customer call you with an issue, so oncall support is not needed.

So I totally agree with your approach.

justcool393 · 2 months ago
yeah, i mean i guess what i'm trying to say is that the breaking point is very far up there as computers have gotten towards breakneck speeds, especially on the technology side, for the goal being achieved. it's downright difficult to hit the limits unless you're throwing effectively a DDoS at it.

i think the big thing though is that it's a community and so people are actually willing to support that even if it means the amount of 9s of availability is slightly fewer (although in practice, many providers bust right through their "9s" SLAs without a care in the world) and given a migration from a VM provider to the dedi occurred, migrations obviously can happen if failure presents itself.

justcool393 commented on Engineered Addictions   masonyarbrough.substack.c... · Posted by u/echollama
Aurornis · 2 months ago
> People pay for software all the time.

Well obviously some people would pay. The hurdle that a company needs to clear is getting enough people to pay to support both an engineering staff and the infrastructure costs.

Do the math on how many people are necessary to run a web site with on-call rotation, minimum moderation, and someone to run the business. The number of $2/month subscription required to make that work is prohbitively high.

> but perhaps lots of smaller, focused social networks at $2/pop could work

Even large, free, well-funded social networks are failing to get significant traction or running into echo chamber problems (Bluesky).

I've been hearing for years that a paid social network would work, but if the unpaid social network competitors can't get any traction, what makes you think adding a $2/month signup hurdle would improve the situation?

If you want to see a real-world example of people squirming out of their claims that they'd pay for ad-free services, take a look at any HN thread discussing YouTube premium or their ad-block evasion efforts. The price for ad-free YouTube is reasonable for as much as people watch it, yet when cornered the same audiences who claimed they'd pay for an ad-free version suddenly come up with a multitude of new excuses for why they're refusing to pay. My personal favorite claim (which invariably surfaces in every thread) is when people say they would happily pay for YouTube premium if they weren't so aggressive about adblockers.

justcool393 · 2 months ago
i think that people vastly overstate the costs of this sort of thing and it's super bizarre. if you're treating this as a big official corporation™ and such and want to pay 500 devs like $200k/year or something to make work, then yeah you're gonna have problems.

but if you want to build a social network and aren't dreaming of being gazillionaires for it (which is quite reasonable), then you can get by very easily. how do I know this? because... well it's being done successfully. not was done successfully, is done successfully.

you can probably even get people to help out on it.

you can build a social network with a dedi running nginx hosting your Python application running on a Linux box backed against Postgres (and redis for session storage, although even that is a bit overkill) for like $80/month deployed with a "deploy.sh" script that you run to kick the damn thing into running (Docker is used in dev only, but could easily work here). should you probably add health checks or whatever? yeah. it still works really well.

this scales well past the 100k users mark.

what about video/images/etc? well, this nginx server happily sends out user uploaded video storing them as files on a bog standard ext4 filesystem. backups exist of the site.

the "stack" i mentioned here isn't fancy or particularly tightly optimized, it's in fact pessimized in a lot of ways. hell I know there were a gazillion ways we could improve performance of our application. show the backend app to a game dev and they'd probably want to start strangling people with how poorly optimized most of the actual app is.

and still, it scales well.

again, I stress that this isn't some theoretical idea, this is actively being executed. the entire venture makes money for the team from the users who willingly (and unforcibly in order to use the service, the actual site is free to use in its full form) give money. this isn't ZFS. this isn't Rust. this isn't using some blue-green deployment. this isn't spending hours toiling away at which sysctl to set to squeeze every last cycle out of each box. this isn't behind some massive CDN with "internet scale" boxen or even (for the video serving part) behind any anti-DDoS service.

it's just a matter of doing actual engineering and being willing to actually build the things you want to build.

justcool393 commented on EFF to Ninth Circuit: No Software Exception to Traditional Copyright Limits   eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03... · Posted by u/nfriedly
o11c · a year ago
Regardless of whether companies like Microsoft should be the final authority, it is indisputable that they try to be. So MAD only has one answer.
justcool393 · a year ago
I would dispute that pretty heavily. They're not, and obviously have never, claimed copyright over the DLL you made or whatever, nor the entire concept of linking to Windows APIs (as an example).

Mostly because that's, like the GPL, currently a way to get laughed out of court.

justcool393 commented on EFF to Ninth Circuit: No Software Exception to Traditional Copyright Limits   eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03... · Posted by u/nfriedly
o11c · a year ago
The GPL is quite conscious of the fact that several of its terms would be useless in a sensible copyright regime.

That said, although both are "broad" they are quite different concepts. The linked "interoperability" cases involve 3 works/parties A, B, and C, and the EFF's claim is that A should have no rights regarding B+C just because B+A existed first. OTOH, the GPL's relevants to linking is that A has rights regarding A+B.

The US definition of "derivative work" is quite broad, and seems to cover linking just fine.

The Berne Convention, however, doesn't mention "derivative works", only specific traditional examples thereof, so it's possible that countries other than the US may have implemented it in such a way that linking doesn't count as a derived work. TODO look up "compilation" (in the copyright sense) and "collective work", which might actually be more relevant for linking?

Edit: "GPL is MAD in the copyright cold war" is a good phrase to describe things.

justcool393 · a year ago
> The US definition of "derivative work" is quite broad, and seems to cover linking just fine.

the problem is the GPL view seems doubtful and has not only bad implications for software copyright but copyright of... well literally anything else. I mean, remember what linking actually is (especially dynamic linking), you're basically just making references to certain things.

the analogy that I can best describe is this: if you're writing a paper on something whatever, and you link to a page number of a book, that doesn't make your paper a derivative work of that thing per se.

if I say in the middle of my novel new text on foobars and fozzinators, hey "book A page 32" has instructions for how to confabulate your fozzinator or "book B page 42" has the values needed to valienate your foobaz, referring to those things in general makes no sense to consider this originally authored book a derivative of A, B, or A and B.

or for a more concrete example, saying Microsoft should be the final authority on who can interoperate with their products or saying that the people who publish research are automatically derivative works of other peoples research[1] papers or people who write articles can't even REFER to other articles in such a way.

[1]: research itself may come from derivative ideas of course, but I'm talking about the copyrightable elements here; i.e. not the facts necessarily presented within, but rather how such facts are presented and laid out. copyright does not cover facts (true or false[2]), but your presentation of such facts are.

[2]: https://thowardlaw.com/2023/04/false-facts-denoted-as-actual...

justcool393 commented on EFF to Ninth Circuit: No Software Exception to Traditional Copyright Limits   eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03... · Posted by u/nfriedly
Pannoniae · a year ago
This is most likely very unpopular opinion but the GPL also relies on this overly broad interpretation which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

In short, the GPL considers linking your program with it a derivative work, even if the GPL program is not distributed alongside yours. There's some limitations on it which I'm not really qualified to define, but those roughly boil down to that if you use it over a "generic interface" (network, or calling it as a process) then it doesn't count as a derivative work.

The massive problem with this is that it's a huge overreach. You are not distributing anything from their program (only the symbol names in the binary, which shouldn't be considered a meaningful amount of original work) but you are obliged to follow the terms of the licence to interoperate with a GPL-licenced program.

Granted, this is not a huge problem in practice because the GPL specifically is not used by abusive corporations much, but a similar issue happens with the enforcement of "terms of service"-s based on clickwrap "contracts" you never actually agreed to when you visit a website. Those also argue that not following their ToS also counts as either redistribution of their copyrighted work, or unauthorized access to their systems, both are huge overreaches.

justcool393 · a year ago
it's also worth bringing up some arguments made by Theodore Tso over this very issue in 1998[1]:

> Consider the following --- what defines "link"? Does an RPC call mean linking? What about shared libraries? What about making calls via the system call interface? What about running GPL'ed programs via the system() command from a commercial program? If you take things to extremes, a commercial program which uses the system() program will be interfacing with the GPL'ed /bin/bash on most systems --- is that considered "linking"?

> And if not, what is the legal distinction between what /etc/ld.so does when it maps a GPL'ed library into memory and the thread of control is temporarily tranfered from propietary code to GPL'ed library code when a library function is called, and what happens when a propietary program calls system() and the kernel maps /bin/bash into system memory, and the thread of control transfers temporarily from the propietary program to /bin/bash? You can see how things can get quite ridiculous quite quickly.

> [...]

> The FSF assertion also a very dangerous legal argument to make. If this is true, does this mean that if you write code which happens to make use of interfaces developed by Microsoft and implemented by Microsoft DLL's, that Microsoft somehow has a claim over your code which it could enforce via copyright law? What about any i386 assembly code which makes use of the Intel machine language? Does Intel now have a copyright claim on all i386 object code, and can try to prevent people from executing i386 object code on non-Intel processors? (After all, when a Pentium interprets your object code, one could argue that it is "linking" your object code with the Pentium microcode, which is copyrighted by Intel....)

> What the FSF is trying to advocate is one step down the slippery slope of interface copyrights, and we really, really don't want to go there.

i've seen arguments especially after the Google v. Oracle[2] decision and I think one in particular mentioned the sort of "reality distortion field"[3], which I found to be interesting, especially because a lot of open source projects that are GPL tend to rely on the good-naturedness of other users using their code in a way that's positively in spirit with the GPL. (which, to be fair, has probably helped open source immensely.)

but as Tso points out, therein lies a contradiction with GPL that at if its maximal interpretation to be correct, it's much much more dangerous, than if the GPL effectively is equivalent to the LGPL. but I don't think that (barring a world pre-this-case) this world is the one that is so. (no idea how the AGPL fits into this though, that sounds like a PITA.)

if I were ruler of the world, I'd say that symbol names are a matter of fact and thus should probably not be copyrightable by themselves. but then again I don't rule the world, and I'd probably have other things to change as well, even about copyright.

[1]: https://yarchive.net/comp/gpl_linking.html

[2]: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/18-956_d18f.pdf

[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30404270

justcool393 commented on We have reached an agreement in principle for Sam to return to OpenAI as CEO   twitter.com/openai/status... · Posted by u/staranjeet
highwaylights · 2 years ago
Interesting take.

By all accounts he paid about double what it was worth and the value has collapsed from there.

Probably not a great idea to say anything overtly political when you own a social media company, as due to politics being so polarised in the US, any opinion is going to divide your audience in half causing a usage collapse and driving support to competing platforms.

https://fortune.com/2023/09/06/elon-musk-x-what-is-twitter-w...

justcool393 · 2 years ago
well and he also tried very hard to not buy it until Twitter sued in order to have the contract upheld
justcool393 commented on Emmett Shear becomes interim OpenAI CEO as Altman talks break down   theverge.com/2023/11/20/2... · Posted by u/andsoitis
upwardbound · 2 years ago
One route is if AI (not through malice but simply through incompetence) plays a part in a terrorist plan to trick the US and China or US and Russia into fighting an unwanted nuclear war. A working group I’m a part of, DISARM:SIMC4, has a lot of papers about this here: https://simc4.org
justcool393 · 2 years ago
so the plot of WarGames?
justcool393 commented on Emmett Shear becomes interim OpenAI CEO as Altman talks break down   theverge.com/2023/11/20/2... · Posted by u/andsoitis
theptip · 2 years ago
The big question in my mind is the reported threat from MSFT to withhold cloud credits (i.e. the actual currency of their $10B investment). Is this true? And are they going to follow through?

I don't buy for a second that enough employees will walk to sink the company (though it could be very be disruptive). But for OpenAI, losing a big chunk of their compute could mean they are unable to support their userbase and that could permanently damage their market position.

justcool393 · 2 years ago
was it even reported? i heard a bunch of stuff that seemed to be hypothetical guessing like "satya must be furious" that seemed to morph into "it was reported satya is furious"

i've seen similar with the cloud credits thing, people just pontificating whether it's even a viable strategy.

justcool393 commented on Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI   arstechnica.com/informati... · Posted by u/jncraton
wolverine876 · 2 years ago
> Angel investor Ron Conway wrote, "What happened at OpenAI today is a Board coup that we have not seen the likes of since 1985 when the then-Apple board pushed out Steve Jobs. It is shocking; it is irresponsible; and it does not do right by Sam & Greg or all the builders in OpenAI."

With all sympathy and empathy for Sam and Greg, whose dreams took a blow, I want to say something about investors [edit: not Ron Conway in particular, whom I don't know; see the comment below about Conway]: The board's job is not to do right by 'Sam & Greg', but to do right by OpenAI. When mangement lays off 10,000 employees, the investors congratulate management. And if anyone objects to the impact on the employees, they justify it with the magic words that somehow cancel all morality and humanity - 'it's business' - and call you an unserious bleeding heart. But when the investor's buddy CEO is fired ...

I think that's wrong and that they should also take into account the impact on employees. But CEOs are commanders on the business battlefield; they have great power over the company's outcomes, which are the reasons for the layoffs/firings. Lower-ranking employees are much closer to civilians, and also often can't afford to lose the job.

justcool393 · 2 years ago
it's hilarious how much people for no reason, want to defend the honor of Sam Altman and co. i mean ffs, the guy is not your friend and will definitely backstab you if he gets the opportunity.

i'm surprised anyone can take this "oh woe is me i totally was excited about the future of humanity" crap seriously. these are SV investors here, morally equivalent to the people on Wall Street that a lot here would probably hold in contempt, but because they wore cargo shorts or something, everyone thinks that Sam is their friend and that just if the poor naysayers would understand that Sam is totally cool and uses lowercase in his messages just like mee!!!!

they don't give a shit that your product was "made with <3" or whatever

they don't give a shit about you.

they don't give a shit about your startup's customers.

they only give a shit about how many dollars they make from your product.

boo hooing over Sam getting fired is really pathetic, and I'd expect better from the Hacker News crowd (and more generally the rationalist crowd, which a lot of AI people tend to overlap with).

justcool393 commented on Greg Brockman quits OpenAI   twitter.com/gdb/status/17... · Posted by u/nickrubin
jumploops · 2 years ago
Greg is the one who announced GPT-4. Sam enabled Greg and vice-versa.

The next AI winter may have just begun...

justcool393 · 2 years ago
we can only hope

i'm sick and tired of everyone sticking a chatbot on random crap that doesn't need it and has no reason to ever need it. it also made HN a lot less interesting to read

u/justcool393

KarmaCake day100August 28, 2017
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