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evanweaver commented on When Technology Follows Art   resobscura.substack.com/p... · Posted by u/benbreen
benbreen · 2 years ago
I think we agree, just define terms differently -- video games are art! In other words, gamers are consumers of artwork, and that consumer demand for a new kind of art drove demand for the hardware to go with it. (Naturally that wasn't the only source of demand - engineering and research applications were there from the beginning too).

Edit: this discussion is interesting because I have always just taken it for granted that video games are a form of art. Clearly others don't see it that way, which is fair! Nevertheless, I think a strong case can be made: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_games_as_an_art_form

evanweaver · 2 years ago
Games are a medium for artistic expression but saying that 3D hardware was designed to improve art production, or that NVIDIA was first in market, is incorrect. The hardware was designed to improve the consumption experience of something that is a mix of programming, game mechanics (which are both math and psychology), and potentially various art forms including visual, music, and narrative. It all needs to add up to fun or it won’t find much of an audience.

Gamers aren’t primarily spending time or money for the art and neither was NVIDIA. I will grant that the hardware improvements did make the visual aspects more lifelike and detailed and that allowed for increased artistic range, but production costs generally increased accordingly.

evanweaver commented on When Technology Follows Art   resobscura.substack.com/p... · Posted by u/benbreen
benbreen · 2 years ago
Author here - thank you for this. I definitely don't claim to be an expert on the history of 3d graphics, and you clearly know a lot more than me about the detailed history of NVIDIA.

That said, starting in the early 1990s is missing the whole first half of the story, no? Searching Google Books with a 1980-1990 date range for things like "3d graphics" "art" or "3d graphics" "special effects" yields a lot of primary sources that indicate that creative applications were driving demand for chips and workstations that focused on graphics. For instance this is from a trade journal for TV producers in 1987: "Perhaps the greatest dilemma facing the industrial producer today is what to do about digital graphics... because special effects, 2d painting, and 3d animation all rely on basically the same kind of hardware, it should be possible to design a 'graphics computer' that can handle several different kinds of functions." [https://www.google.com/books/edition/E_ITV/0JRYAAAAYAAJ?hl=e...]

It's not hard to find more examples like this from the 1985-1989 period.

evanweaver · 2 years ago
The idea didn't spring fully formed from SGI. It was a natural extension of 2D graphics accelerators which were initially used for engineering (high value, small market) and later for business applications generally and games (lower value, large markets). 3D acceleration took the exact same path, but the utility for gaming was much higher than the general business utility.

Of course graphics hardware was also used for more creative purposes including desktop publishing, special effects for TV, and digital art, so you will find some people in those communities vaguely wishing for something better, but artistic creation, even for commercial purpose, was never the market driver of 3D acceleration. Games were. The hardware was designed for gamers first, game programmers second, game artists a distant third, and for nobody else.

The closest thing to an "art computer" around that time was the Amiga which targeted the design/audio/video production markets.

evanweaver commented on When Technology Follows Art   resobscura.substack.com/p... · Posted by u/benbreen
qwery · 2 years ago
I'm not really convinced that the story of Nvidia's origin does have the profound meaning the author seems to think it does.

> the Nvidia GPUs [...] were originally inspired by [...] the needs of computer graphics artists in the gaming industry.

I think this passage demonstrates a misread of the quoted section[1] from the interview with Huang. The RIVA 128 was a 3D accelerator / video card for gamers, not game artists. Further, it was pretty clear by 1997 that 3D graphics for games was not a fad nor by that time was it a radical new approach -- Nvidia successfully entered an established market.

[1] Huang liked video games and thought that there was a market for better graphics chips. Instead of drawing pixels by hand, artists were starting to assemble three-dimensional polygons out of shapes known as “primitives,” saving time and effort but requiring new chips.

evanweaver · 2 years ago
Yeah, this history is just wrong. What really happened is as so:

Early 90s: SGI invented OpenGL to make realtime 3D graphics practical, initially for CAD/CAM and other scientific/engineering pursuits, and started shipping expensive workstations with 3d accelerated graphics. Some game artists used these workstations to prerender 3d graphics for game consoles. Note that 2D CAD/CAM accelerators had already been in market for nearly a decade, as had game consoles with varying degrees of 2D acceleration.

Mid-90s: Arcades and consoles starting using SGI chips and/or chip designs to render 3d games in real time. 3DFx, founded by ex-SGI engineers, created the Voodoo accelerator to bring the technology down market to the PC for PC games, which was a rapidly growing market.

Late 90s: NVIDIA entered the already existing and growing market for OpenGL accelerators for 3D PC gaming. This was a fast-follow technical play. They competed with 3DFx on performance and won after 3DFx fell behind and made serious strategy mistakes.

Later 90s: NVIDIA created the “GPU” branding to draw attention to their addition of hardware texture and lighting support, which 3DFX didn’t have. Really this was more of an incremental improvement in gaming capability.

Early 00s: NVIDIA nearly lost their lead to ATI with the switch to the shader model and DirectX 9, and had to redesign their architecture. ATI is now part of AMD and continues to compete with NVIDIA.

Mid 00s: NVIDIA releases CUDA, which adapts shaders to general purpose computation, completing the circle in a sense and making NVIDIA GPUs more useful for scientific work like the original SGI workstations. This later enabled the crypto boom and now generative AI.

Of course, along the way, OpenGL and GPUs have been used a lot for art, including art in games, but at no point did anybody say "hey, a lot of artists are trying to make 3D art, we should make graphics hardware for artists". Graphics hardware was made to render games faster with higher fidelity.

evanweaver commented on SPAs Were a Mistake   gomakethings.com/spas-wer... · Posted by u/andrei_says_
simonw · 4 years ago
It's been so frustrating watch this play out over the past decade.

I keep seeing projects that could have been written as a traditional multi-page application pick an SPA architecture instead, with the result that they take 2-5 times longer to build and produce an end-result that's far slower to load and much more prone to bugs.

Inevitably none of these projects end up taking advantage of the supposed benefits of SPAs: there are no snazzy animations between states, and the "interactivity" mainly consists of form submissions that don't trigger a full page - which could have been done for a fraction of the cost (in development time and performance) using a 2009-era jQuery plugin!

And most of them don't spend the time to implement HTML5 history properly, so they break the URLs - which means you can't bookmark or deep link into them and they break the back/forward buttons.

I started out thinking "surely there are benefits to this approach that I've not understood yet - there's no way the entire industry would swing in this direction if it didn't have good reasons to do so".

I've run out of patience now. Not only do we not seem to be learning from our mistakes, but we've now trained up an entire new generation of web developers who don't even know HOW to build interactive web products without going the SPA route!

My recommendation remains the same: default to not writing an SPA, unless your project has specific, well understood requirements (e.g. you're building Figma) that make the SPA route a better fit.

Don't default to building an SPA.

evanweaver · 4 years ago
I know people for whom the traditional way of building a web app is completely foreign. I am curious how you would describe the concept and tools to someone who has never encountered them before outside an SPA architecture.
evanweaver commented on Reducing complexity by integrating through the database   fauna.com/blog/reducing-c... · Posted by u/evanweaver
DeathArrow · 4 years ago
I wouldn't integrate through a database but I wouldn't refuse to integrate through a distributed cache.

Anyway using REST for inter services communication decreases performance and increases latency and 99% of projects still do it.

evanweaver · 4 years ago
Curious what makes a cache better to you.
evanweaver commented on Reducing complexity by integrating through the database   fauna.com/blog/reducing-c... · Posted by u/evanweaver
cogman10 · 4 years ago
Tell me about it. This is the current system I maintain. While new products have (mostly) started using non-integrated DBs, all the legacy systems we have use a giant integrated db.

It SUCKS.

Let me count the ways.

- You can't update a table schema without updating and deploying a bunch of applications in sync (even if that's part of a stored proc). Which for something like this, means that getting out of this situation is WAY harder than getting into it.

- You end up putting WAY too much logic into the DB which makes it hard to ultimately figure out WHAT is supposed to happen

- DBs have TERRIBLE development stories. That's ultimately because the code and data all live in the same place and you can update code without any sort of revision control to help you understand or see a change that's been made to db schema (Forcing a bunch of painful process around updating DB capabilities).

- DBs are resource bottlenecks that SUCK to figure out how to scale out. Putting a bunch of apps into one DB complicates that process. Scaling a single app in a single DB is simply WAY easier.

- At least my db (but I assume a bunch of other DBs) have really crappy performance diagnostic tools. Further, the more complicated the queries against it, the more likely you are to go from "Hey, stats are making things fast" to "OMG, why is this thing taking 10 seconds to run now!". It's really bad when the only solution that seems to fix things is dumping stats.

I could MAYBE see something like this for a macro service dedicated to a domain, but I'd never build a complex system like this from scratch. Colocating apps in the same DB would have to be for some crazy performance reasons why bypassing a microservice makes sense. An exception, not the regular course of action (And I'd still hate it :) )

evanweaver · 4 years ago
I mean, yeah, this is why people stopped using this pattern. But these problems are getting solved, especially in Fauna:

1. Schemaless/document/schema-on-need databases like Fauna don't mandate the application breakage on every change that SQL does

2. It's hard to reason about if its not transparent, but it can be transparent now, see below

3. Fauna is a temporal database, which acts like version control on your stored procedures, so you can easily check and revert any change

4. Fauna is serverless and horizontally scalable without consistency/latency impact

5. This was definitely a problem when you were occupying precious CPU cores on a vertically scaled RDBMS with business logic, but compute in Fauna or in serverless lambdas scales horizontally indefinitely

evanweaver commented on Reducing complexity by integrating through the database   fauna.com/blog/reducing-c... · Posted by u/evanweaver
evanweaver · 4 years ago
Stored procedures and the integration database have come back for our users in a big way. It would be great to hear examples of how others are applying this pattern with other databases and APIs.

u/evanweaver

KarmaCake day1687February 1, 2017
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