cb321 (u/cb321) - Readit News

cb321 commented on Removed rust to gain speed prisma.io/blog/announcing... · Posted by u/2233

Ygg2 · 11 days ago

So by that definition yes, as of Nim 2.0 ORC is the default. You need to opt-out of it.

cb321 · 11 days ago

I'm not sure this opt-in/out "philosophical razor" is as sharp as one would like it to be. I think "optionality" alone oversimplifies and a person trying to adopt that rule for taxonomy would just have a really hard time and that might be telling us something.

For example, in Nim, at the compiler CLI tool level, there is opt-in/opt-out via the `--mm=whatever` flag, but, at the syntax level, Nim has both `ref T` and `ptr T` on equal syntactic footing . But then in the stdlib, `ref` types (really things derived from `seq[T]`) are used much more (since it's so convenient). Meanwhile, runtimes are often deployment properties. If every Linux distro had their libc link against -lgc for Boehm, people might say "C is a GC'd language on Linux". Minimal CRTs vary across userspaces and OS kernel/userspace deployment.. "What you can rely on/assume", I suspect the thrust behind "optionality", just varies with context.

Similar binding vagueness between properties (good, bad, ugly) of a language's '"main" compiler' and a 'language itself' and 'its "std"lib' and "common" runtimes/usage happen all the time (e.g. "object-oriented", often diluted by the vagueness of "oriented"). That doesn't even bring in "use by common dependencies" which is an almost independent axis/dimension and starts to relate to coordination problems of "What should even be in a 'std'-lib or any lib, anyway?".

I suspect this rule is trying to make the adjective "GC'd" do more work in an absolute sense than it realistically can given the diversity of PLangs (sometimes not so visible considering only workaday corporate PLangs). It's not always easy to define things!

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

sevensor · 13 days ago

That’s fair. Sounds like the example was composed in haste and may not do the language justice.

cb321 · 13 days ago

I think the example was chosen only for familiarity and is otherwise not great. Though it was the familiarity itself that probably helped you to so easily criticize it. So, what do I know? :-)

FWIW, the "catenation operator" in the Nim stdlib is ampersand `&`, not `+` which actually makes it better than most PLangs at visually disambiguating things like string (or other dynamic array, `seq[T]` in Nim) concatenation from arithmetic. So, `a&b` means `b` concatenated onto the end of `a` while `a+b` is the more usual commutative operation (i.e. same as `b+a`). Commutativity is not enforced by the basic dispatch on `+`, though such might be add-able as a compiler plugin.

Mostly, it's just a very flexible compiler / system.. like a static Lisp with a standard surface syntax closer to Python with a lot of parentheses made optional (but I think much more flexible and fluid than Python). Nim is far from perfect, but it makes programming feel like so much less boilerplate ceremony than most alternatives and also responds very well to speed/memory optimization effort.

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

ThouYS · 13 days ago

100% my beef with it. same style as c++ where you never know where something comes from, when clangd starts throwing one of its fits

cb321 · 13 days ago

PMunch and summarity both already said this, but because maybe code speaks louder than words (like pictures?)... This works:

    from strutils as su import nil
    echo su.split "hi there"

(You can put some parens () in there if you like, but that compiles.) So, you can do Python-style terse renames of imports with forced qualification. You just won't be able to say "hi there".(su.split) or .`su.split` or the like.

You can revive that, though, with a

    template suSplit(x): untyped = su.split x
    echo "hi there".suSplit`

That most Nim code you see will not do this is more a cultural/popularity thing that is kind of a copy-paste/survey of dev tastes thing. It's much like people using "np" as the ident in `import numpy as np`. I was doing this renaming import before it was even widely popular, but I used capital `N` for `numpy` and have had people freak out at me for such (and yet no one freaking out at Travis for not just calling it `np` in the first place).

So, it matters a little more in that this impacts how you design/demo library code/lib symbol sets and so on, but it is less of a big deal than people make it out to be. This itself is much like people pretending they are arguing about "fundamental language things", when a great deal of what they actually argue about are "common practices" or conventions. Programming language designers have precious little control over such practices.

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

nallerooth · 13 days ago

I feel the same way - as I suspect a lot of people here do. Nim posts are always upvoted and usually people say nice things about the language in the comments.. but there are few who claim to actually -use- the language for more than a small private project, if even that.

cb321 · 13 days ago

The only way to really test out a programming language is by trying it out or reading how someone else approached a problem that you're interested in/know about.

There are over 2200 nimble packages now. Maybe not an eye-popping number, but there's still a good chance that somewhere in the json at https://github.com/nim-lang/packages you will find something interesting. There is also RosettaCode.org which has a lot of Nim example code.

This, of course, does not speak to the main point of this subthread about the founder but just to some "side ideas".

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

sevensor · 13 days ago

But given the definition of Fibable, it could be anything that supports + and - operators. That could be broader than numbers. You could define it for sets for example. How do you add the number 1 to the set of strings containing (“dog”, “cat”, and “bear”)? So I suppose I do have a complaint about Fibable, which is that it’s underconstrained.

Granted, I don’t know nim. Maybe you can’t define + and - operators for non numbers?

cb321 · 13 days ago

Araq was probably trying to keep `Fibable` short for the point he was trying to make. So, your qualm might more be with his example than anything else.

You could add a `SomeNumber` predicate to the `concept` to address that concern. `SomeNumber` is a built-in typeclass (well, in `system.nim` anyway, but there are ways to use the Nim compiler without that or do a `from system import nil` or etc.).

Unmentioned in the article is a very rare compiler/PLang superpower (available at least in Nim 1, Nim 2) - `compiles`. So, the below will print out two lines - "2\n1\n":

    when compiles SomeNumber "hi": echo 1 else: echo 2
    when compiles SomeNumber 1.0: echo 1 else: echo 2

Last I knew "concept refinement" for new-style concepts was still a work in progress. Anyway, I'm not sure what is the most elegant way to incorporate this extra constraint, but I think it's a mistake to think it is unincorporatable.

To address your question about '+', you can define it for non-SomeNumber, but you can also define many new operators like `.+.` or `>>>` or whatever. So, it's up to your choice/judgement if the situation calls for `+` vs something else.

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

kace91 · 13 days ago

>To be clear, I am not taking some specific position, but I think all these topics inform answers to your question. I think it's something with trade-offs that people have a tendency to over-simplify based on a limited view.

That's fair, I wasn't dimsissing the practice but rather just commenting that it's a shame the author didn't clarify their preference.

I don't think the popularity angle is a good proxy for usefulness/correction of the practice. Many factors can influence popularity.

Performance is a very fair point, I don't know enough to understand the details but I could see it being a strong argument. It is counter intuitive to move forward with calculations known to be useless, but maybe the cost of checking all calculations for validity is larger than the savings of skipping early the invalid ones.

There is a catch though. Numpy and R are very oriented to calculation pipelines, which is a very different usecase to general programming, where the side effects of undetected 'corrupt' values can be more serious.

cb321 · 13 days ago

The conversation around Nim for the past 20 years has been rather fragmented - IRC channels, Discord channels (dozens, I think), later the Forum, Github issue threads, pull request comment threads, RFCs, etc. Araq has a tendency to defend his ideas in one venue (sometimes quite cogently) and leave it to questioners to dig up where those trade-off conversations might be. I've disliked the fractured nature of the conversation for the 10 years I've known about it, but assigned it to a kind of "kids these days, whachagonnado" status. Many conversations (and life!) are just like that - you kind of have to "meet people where they are".

Anyway, this topic of "error handling scoping/locality" may be the single most cross-cutting topic across CPUs, PLangs, Databases, and operating systems (I would bin Numpy/R under Plangs+Databases as they are kind of "data languages"). Consequently, opinions can be very strong (often having this sense of "Everything hinges on this!") in all directions, but rarely take a "complete" view.

If you are interested in "fundamental, not just popularity" discussions, and it sounds like you are, I feel like the database community discussions are probably the most "refined/complete" in terms of trade-offs, but that could simply be my personal exposure, and DB people tend to ignore CPU SIMD because it's such a "recent" innovation (hahaha, Seymore Cray was doing it in the 1980s for the Cray-3 Vector SuperComputer). Anyway, just trying to help. That link to the DB Null page I gave is probably a good starting point.

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

sevensor · 13 days ago

Well, I agree about Fibable, it’s fine. It’s the actual fib function that doesn’t work for me. T can only be integer, because the base case returns 1 and the function returns T. Therefore it doesn’t work for all Fibables, just for integers.

cb321 · 13 days ago

In this case, it compiles & runs fine with floats (if you just delete the type constraint "Fibable") because the string "1" can be implicitly converted into float(1) { or 1.0 or 1f64 or float64(1) or 1'f64 or ..? }. You can think of the "1" and "2" as having an implicit "T(1)", "T(2)" -- which would also resolve your "doesn't work for me" if you prefer the explicitness. You don't have to trust me, either. You can try it with `echo fib(7.0)`.

Nim is Choice in many dimensions that other PLang's are insistently monosyllabic/stylistic about - gc or not or what kind, many kinds of spelling, new operator vs. overloaded old one, etc., etc., etc. Some people actually dislike choice because it allows others to choose differently and the ensuing entropy creates cognitive dissonance. Code formatters are maybe a good example of this? They may not phrase opposition as being "against choice" as explicitly as I am framing it, but I think the "My choices only, please!" sentiment is in there if they are self-aware.

cb321 commented on Nimony (Nim 3.0) Design Principles nim-lang.org/araq/nimony.... · Posted by u/andsoitis

kace91 · 13 days ago

I’d like to see their argument for it. I see no help in pushing NaN as a number through a code path corrupting all operations it is part of, and the same is true for the others.

cb321 · 13 days ago

There is no direct argument/guidence that I saw for "when to use them", but masked arrays { https://numpy.org/doc/stable/reference/maskedarray.html } (an alternative to sentinels in array processing sub-languages) have been in NumPy (following its antecedents) from its start. I'm guessing you could do a code-search for its imports and find arguments pro & con in various places surrounding that.

From memory, I have heard "infecting all downstream" as both "a feature" and "a problem". Experience with numpy programs did lead to sentinels in the https://github.com/c-blake/nio Nim package, though.

Another way to try to investigate popularity here is to see how much code uses signaling NaN vs. quiet NaN and/or arguments pro/con those things / floating point exceptions in general.

I imagine all of it comes down to questions of how locally can/should code be forced to confront problems, much like arguments about try/except/catch kinds of exception handling systems vs. other alternatives. In the age of SIMD there can be performance angles to these questions and essentially "batching factors" for error handling that relate to all the other batching factors going on.

Today's version of this wiki page also includes a discussion of Integer Nan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NaN . It notes that the R language uses the minimal signed value (i.e. 0x80000000) of integers for NA.

There is also the whole database NULL question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_(SQL)

To be clear, I am not taking some specific position, but I think all these topics inform answers to your question. I think it's something with trade-offs that people have a tendency to over-simplify based on a limited view.

cb321 commented on Experimenting with Robin Hood Hashing twdev.blog/2025/11/robin_... · Posted by u/signa11

tialaramex · 20 days ago

I'm not at all convinced I need to be read "charitably". I think it's just straightforwardly true that most people writing C++ with a std::unordered_map do not use this property of std::unordered_map.

In particular the "deleting arbitrary other entries while walking the unordered map" is a weird thing to be doing. It's not necessarily wrong but it's weird to need precisely this (which it so happens the std::unordered_map can do) but not e.g. inserting arbitrary stuff into the map (which might grow and thus invalidate your iterator)

Note that "Delete yourself if you want" is an operation we can afford in the otherwise more optimal containers, so if that is the only deletion you want then you again over-paid by choosing this weird container type with pointer stability.

I do not believe that Stepanov chose this particular hash table because this one had properties he specifically wanted, maybe you have a reference which can prove me wrong? I think this was the type he was most familiar with, and the STL is illustrating generic programming - an important idea - not showing off the most optimal data structures and algorithms.

cb321 · 20 days ago

I tried to defend you against a hard to support "most people didn't want this" with a workload (either static or dynamic) assertion. You come back saying you don't need such charitability while simultaneously clarifying in terms of a static workload! Seemingly, "most written C++" (again charitably moving from "people writing" to "written code" because the latter is probably more relevant and surely more auditable/studyable - "source code files easier than people").

I think you should be more careful about claiming you know what people want or know. Many people I know don't seem to know what they want.. it's some melange of desiderata with various eternal tensions. As just one example, I would doubt most people even want performance above all else. I really doubt most people understand well how their various static and dynamic workloads relate to their performance. I doubt I'm alone in having known many C++ programmers who, from spoken conversation, revealed they thought STL map was a hash table, for example.

I only said "one of the main" and almost added "with pointer stability being the bigger", but it had already been observed by rurban. Delete-while-iterating has close ties with cell motion (though convoluted workarounds may exist, they may well cost more than you personally would like, it sounds). How to best explain all these things is always questionable, but I was trying to supplement. It's generally not easy without visual aids and definitely not if people are being combative. Python has ever & always since the late 80s used open addressing but only more recently tried to `raise` on dict edits during iterations.

It seems to be flip-flopping that you are now calling separately chained hash tables a "weird container type" when 3 months ago it seemed to be news to you that they were NOT the main strategy for decades before open addressing on some Nim -ish comment on a Carbon thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44754821

Anything else I would say, such as Stepanov not even choosing a hash table in the first place, gpderetta said very well in a sibling. For the record, I still very much disagree with the early (& later) design of the STL and am no fan of WG21. Have a good weekend.

cb321 commented on A Remarkable Assertion from A16Z nealstephenson.substack.c... · Posted by u/boplicity

spuz · 20 days ago

The earliest use of this term I can find is here: https://andrewbrown.substack.com/p/the-inhuman-centipede

It was also used as the title for this post by Cory Doctrow discussing the same problem: https://pluralistic.net/2024/03/14/inhuman-centipede/#enshit...

cb321 · 20 days ago

There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumancentiPad (which is almost surely an homage to the movie) which was 2011 and tied in all kinds of tech-aspects like licensing and iPads.