calebio (u/calebio) - Readit News

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

g-b-r · 17 days ago

The 1994 paper (freely available at https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1341727/m2/...) is actually about proper E2EE.

I addressed the other two at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46132220 .

You did show that the term was already used, but in the current meaning

calebio · 17 days ago

> The 1994 paper (freely available at https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1341727/m2/...) is actually about proper E2EE.

That paper is about PKI-based session setup for End-End which is the ancestor of SSL/TLS. It even mentions a CAE which is effectively a CA and it does a synchronous handshake to establish a symmetric key. It's very clearly about transport layer security from end to end.

It's not about User-User E2EE (akin to Signal) and shares very little other than that data is encrypted from point A to point B.

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

stephen_g · 17 days ago

While what you're saying makes sense, it's not the normal use of the term - in fact, the term 'end to end encryption' was basically coined to differentiate user-to-user encryption (through an intermediary service that can't decrypt the message) from the regular case (user to service encryption) that you're talking about!

calebio · 17 days ago

It wasn't coined, it was reused. It historically meant things that were encrypted from the client to the server, e.g. SSH, SSL, TLS, etc.

RFC 4949 (Internet Security Glossary, Version 2) from 2007: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4949

     $ end-to-end encryption
      (I) Continuous protection of data that flows between two points in
      a network, effected by encrypting data when it leaves its source,
      keeping it encrypted while it passes through any intermediate
      computers (such as routers), and decrypting it only when it
      arrives at the intended final destination. (See: wiretapping.
      Compare: link encryption.)

      Examples: A few are BLACKER, CANEWARE, IPLI, IPsec, PLI, SDNS,
      SILS, SSH, SSL, TLS.

      Tutorial: When two points are separated by multiple communication
      links that are connected by one or more intermediate relays, end-
      to-end encryption enables the source and destination systems to
      protect their communications without depending on the intermediate
      systems to provide the protection.

There's a bunch of older references as well. Since SSL/TLS wasn't really adopted by a lot of services until 2008+ usages of it are mainly in papers, old forum posts, etc. I saw it used and was discussing it back in the day on IRC with folks who were way more knowledgeable than me on this topic and had been in the trenches for a while :D

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

g-b-r · 17 days ago

With three citations I was about to give in, and accept that my experience might have been limited, but then I checked those citations and... are you trolling? Or were those given you by an llm?

1. "End-To-End Arguments in System Design" (https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoe...) argues that it's appropriate to perform various functions at the high-level, application, ends, rather than for example leaving encryption to devices external to the hosts.

It's really a stretch to affirm that it considers "end-to-end encryption" a proper term for transport, client-server encryption.

Actually, I'd say that transport-level, origin-server -> server-destination encryption is precisely one of the things that the paper would not consider end-to-end.

2. "Analysis of the SSL 3.0 Protocol" (https://www.schneier.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/paper-ss...):

  a. it doesn't "outline the plans for ssl", it's an analysis of its third version???
  
  b. It doesn't reference "End-To-End Arguments in System Design" anywhere, and doesn't even contain the expression "end-to-end"

3. "Limitations of end-to-end encryption in secure computer networks" is mostly concerned with warning about side-channels, that they can be used to disseminate information despite encryption.

Its usage of end-to-end encryption is defined in the paper that's being criticized (https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1499799.1499812): «The term end to-end encryption refers to data being enciphered at the source and remaining unintelligible until it deciphered at its final destination.»

calebio · 17 days ago

I'll take the hit on the loose phrasing regarding the SSL paper "outlining plans". That was a poor description of mine of an analysis paper and wasn't a good example of the point I was trying to make. However, you are focusing on the trees and missing the forest. The citations you analyzed actually prove the semantic shift I am describing, specifically the MITRE one.

You quoted the MITRE paper (or the older paper it references) defining end-to-end encryption as:

> "data being enciphered at the source and remaining unintelligible until it deciphered at its final destination."

This is the exact crux of the disagreement. In classic Client-Server architecture, the Server was the "final destination". The application processing the data lived on the server. Therefore, by the definition you just quoted, SSL/TLS from Client to Server was "End-to-End Encryption" because the network (routers/ISPs) could not decipher it.

The "modern" definition (post-Signal/WhatsApp) effectively redefined "final destination" to mean "another human user," relegating the Service Provider to a mere hop in the middle. That is a massive semantic shift.

re Saltzer's "End-to-End Arguments": The paper argues that functions (like reliability or encryption) should be moved from the lower network layers (links) to the "ends" (hosts/applications). SSL/TLS is the literal implementation of this argument: moving encryption out of the network links (Link Encryption) and into the application endpoints (Host-to-Host).

The term "End-to-End" in networking *has* historically meant Host-to-Host (Transport Layer), whereas the modern messaging usage means User-to-User. That is why a lot of folks from that era (and the RFCs) called SSL "End-to-End encryption" because relative to the network, it is.

---

RFC 4949 from 2007 (Internet Security Glossary) is quite explicit on this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4949

> $ end-to-end encryption

> (I) Continuous protection of data that flows between two points in

> a network, effected by encrypting data when it leaves its source,

> keeping it encrypted while it passes through any intermediate

> computers (such as routers), and decrypting it only when it

> arrives at the intended final destination. (See: wiretapping. Compare: link encryption.)

>

> Examples: A few are BLACKER, CANEWARE, IPLI, IPsec, PLI, SDNS, SILS, SSH, *SSL, TLS*.

>

> Tutorial: When two points are separated by multiple communication

> links that are connected by one or more intermediate relays, end-

> to-end encryption enables the source and destination systems to

> protect their communications without depending on the intermediate

> systems to provide the protection.

---

RFC 1455 from 1993 (32 years ago) also uses the term in the IP/Host context: https://pike.lysator.liu.se/docs/ietf/rfc/14/rfc1455.xml

> At this time all Internet Protocol (IP) packets must have most of their header information, including the "from" and "to" addresses, in the clear. This is required for routers to properly handle the traffic even if a higher level protocol fully encrypts all bytes in the packet after the IP header. This renders even *end-to-end encrypted* IP packets subject to traffic analysis if the data stream can be observed.

---

Regarding your claim that "no one really used the E2EE term before it got the current meaning," the IETF standards for the internet (albeit an informational RFC and not a standards RFC) explicitly list SSL and TLS as examples of End-to-End encryption. The definition of "End" has simply shifted from the Machine to the User.

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

g-b-r · 17 days ago

> It was only a decade or so ago that "End-To-End Encryption" began to mean something other than "encrypted in transit".

No, before that it was simply not a term, except in some obscure radio protocol (and even there someone competent in cryptography would probably not have chosen that term)

> E2EE now means something wildly different in the context of messaging applications and the like (since like 2014) so this is more of an outdated way of saying "no one is getting your poop pictures between your toilet and us".

The outdated way was saying "Military-grade 128-bit encryption", no one really used the E2EE term before it got the current meaning

> I wonder if they encrypt it and then send it over TLS or if they're just relying on TLS as the client->server encryption. Restated, I wonder how deep in their stack the encrypted blob goes before it's decrypted.

Some homemade encryption added on top of TLS is very unlikely to increase the security of the system

calebio · 17 days ago

> No, before that it was simply not a term, except in some obscure radio protocol

> no one really used the E2EE term before it got the current meaning

It most certainly was a term and no it wasn't simply limited to "some obscure radio protocol".

1994: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/363791

1984: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357401.357402

1978: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA059221.pdf

> Some homemade encryption added on top of TLS is very unlikely to increase the security of the system

"Some homemade encryption" is not what I was suggesting at all. E.g. encrypted-at-the-source (client side) AWS files are still sent over TLS as an encrypted blob within an encrypted blob but remain encrypted past the TLS boundary.

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

g-b-r · 17 days ago

I wasn't a network engineer, but to my recollection "end-to-end encryption" was only used occasionally, probably by people not too knowledgeable in cryptography

calebio · 17 days ago

Well respectfully your recollection is missing lots of references by people that were "knowledgeable in cryptography".

You can easily find these references in the literature, often comparing link encryption with end-to-end encryption. Some of the earliest papers outlining the plans for SSL in the 90s (Analysis of the SSL 3.0 Protocol) are based on this exact foundation from the 80s (End-To-End Arguments in System Design).

Hell, you can even go back to 1978 and see MITRE discussing this exact thing in "Limitations of end-to-end encryption in secure computer networks".

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

lukeschlather · 17 days ago

The two endpoints of the communication with Kohler's app are the client and the server. In WhatsApp's E2EE implementation the endpoints are two client devices. Both are valid meanings of E2EE. You're defining that "end to end" means the server cannot access it but that's simply not what it means.

calebio · 17 days ago

The modern usage of E2EE definitely means that "the server cannot access it". That's the meat of this entire discussion.

While you are technically correct in a network topology sense (where the "ends" are the TCP connection points), that definition has been obsolete in consumer privacy contexts for a decade now due to "true" E2EE encryption.

If we use your definition, then Gmail, Facebook, and Amazon are all "End-to-End Encrypted" because the traffic is encrypted between my client and their server. But we don't call them E2EE because the service provider holds the keys and can see the data.

In 2025, when a company claims a camera product is "E2EE", a consumer interprets that to mean "Zero Knowledge". I.e. the provider cannot see the video feeds. If Kohler holds the keys to analyze the data, that is Encryption in Transit, not E2EE. Even though in an older sense (which is what my original comment was saying), it was "End to End Encrypted" because the two ends were defined as Client and Server and not Client to Client (e.g. FB Messenger User1 and FB Messenger User2).

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

kstrauser · 17 days ago

I’m pushing back on that one. I’ve been running websites since the ‘90s, and I’ve never heard E2EE used that way until very recently by vendors who, bluntly, want to lie about it.

calebio · 17 days ago

It was pretty common to call client-side encryption/SSL "end to end encryption" among network engineers who were analyzing data flowing through their networks[0] as well as those who were implementing SSL/TLS into their applications[1]. The ends were the client and the server and the data was encrypted "end to end". The goal at that time was to prevent MITM snooping/attacks which were highly prevalent at the time.

Papers in academia and the greater industry[2] also referred to it in this way at the time.

Stack Overflow has plenty of examples of folks calling it "end to end encryption" and you can start to see the time period after the Signal protocol and WhatsApp implemented it that the term started to take on a much wider meaning[4]

This also came up a lot in the context of games that rolled out client side encryption for packets on the way to the server. Folks would run MITM applications on their computer to intercept game packets coming out of the client and back from the server. Clever mechanisms were setup for key management and key exchange[3].

[0] as SSL became more common lots of tooling broke at the network level around packet inspection, routing, caching, etc. As well as engineers "having fun" on Friday nights looking at what folks were looking at.

[1] Stack Overflow's security section has references from that era

[2] "Encrypting the internet" (2010) - https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1851275.1851200

[3] Habbo Hotel's prime and generator being hidden in one of the dynamic images fetched from the server as well as their DH mechanism comes to mind.

[4] Jabber/XMPP however used E2EE in the more modern sense around that time as they were exploring going beyond TLS and having true E2EE.

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

boomboomsubban · 17 days ago

Creating a new term for the less secure definition doesn't work, as they'll just continue to call it E2EE encrypted.

calebio · 17 days ago

I think part of the problem is that prior to WhatsApp's E2EE implementation in like 2014, TLS was very often called "End to End Encryption" as the ends were Client and Server/Service Provider. It got redefined and now the new usage is way more popular than the old one.

I can't blame most people for calling TLS "E2EE", even some folks in industry, but it's not great for a company to advertise that you offer X if the meaning of X has shifted so drastically in the last decade.

calebio commented on Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera varlogsimon.leaflet.pub/3... · Posted by u/TimDotC

calebio · 17 days ago

It was only a decade or so ago that "End-To-End Encryption" began to mean something other than "encrypted in transit".

E2EE now means something wildly different in the context of messaging applications and the like (since like 2014) so this is more of an outdated way of saying "no one is getting your poop pictures between your toilet and us".

It also feels like it would never make sense for this to be "E2EE encrypted" in the modern sense of the term as the "end user recipient" of the message is the service provider (Kohler) itself. "Encrypted in Transit" and "Encrypted at Rest" is about as good as you're going to get here IMO as the service provider is going to have to have access to the keys, so E2EE in a product like this is kind of impossible if you're not doing the processing on the device.

I wonder if they encrypt it and then send it over TLS or if they're just relying on TLS as the client->server encryption. Restated, I wonder how deep in their stack the encrypted blob goes before it's decrypted.

calebio commented on Occult books digitized and put online by Amsterdam’s Ritman Library openculture.com/2025/08/2... · Posted by u/Anon84

elmomle · 4 months ago

Also reflected in Vedic/Hindu philosophy: conscious experience (cetanā) arises from the interfacing of ātman (the immaterial self / soul) with śarīra (the physical body).

calebio · 4 months ago

It's turtles all the way down.