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angleofrepose commented on Understanding Solar Energy   construction-physics.com/... · Posted by u/chmaynard
epistasis · a year ago
> It seems clear that solar owes it's growth to Germany and California policies which subsidized the global solar industry with taxes on their economies, most disproportionately placed on individual ratepayers. But why couldn't solar research have been long-term funded based on it's fundamental value

I think this is a really important distinction, that between research in the lab versus research on the factory floor. Tesla in particular has talked about how much they value engineers that get down in to the production process versus those that are working in the lab. That's the "doing" that needs to happen. As well as shaking out parts of the upstream supply chains and making all that cheaper.

We can theorize about what's going to work in practice, but the price drops are the combination of 1% savings here, 0.75% savings there, 0.5% there, and until you have the full factory going you won't be able to fully estimate your actual numbers, much less come up with all the sequential small improvements that build on each other. And all that comes together in the design of the next factory that's the next magnitude up in size.

angleofrepose · a year ago
I hear that, it seems a common observation. Maybe a fundamental truth of enterprise.

> until you have the full factory going you won't be able to fully estimate your actual numbers, much less come up with all the sequential small improvements that build on each other.

Why not? Is there a theory or school of management or industry that establishes this foundational principle that seems so commonly invoked? It feels true, but I don't really know why it might be true. There must also be great examples of counterpoints in this too!

Maybe it goes back to learn by doing: it's a common refrain in outdoor recreation that safety rules are written in blood; that many of our guidelines directly follow from bad things that happened. But certainly we can also design safety rules by thinking critically about our activities. Learn by doing vs theory.

angleofrepose commented on Understanding Solar Energy   construction-physics.com/... · Posted by u/chmaynard
pjc50 · a year ago
> why didn't progress in solar and batteries happen sooner?

The rate of progress in cost reduction has been astonishing. It's unlike anything except Moore's Law. This catches people out.

As well as the usual suspects: cheap fossil fuels, failure to take global warming seriously, belief that nuclear power would see similar exponential cost reduction rather than opposite, and of course anti green politics.

But if 95% cost reduction is the result of not taking it seriously, would taking it seriously earlier have been even better? Hard to say.

angleofrepose · a year ago
Right! Good points for optimism here, and acknowledging broken mental models.

We have silicon solar modules in the 1950s, Moore's law in the 1960s. Another take on the question then: today we use Moore's law to describe progress in solar modules, to what extent was that realization possible in the 1960s from the fundamentals, or "first principles"?

If it was clear, why did we not see rapid prioritization of solar and energy storage technology research? Or did we and I don't know the actual history? Or what influences am I undervaluing or not recognizing?

If it wasn't clear, why not? Gaming out many positive impacts of solar technology feels easy today in a way it appears was not easy in the past. Why wasn't it clear in the past?

angleofrepose commented on Understanding Solar Energy   construction-physics.com/... · Posted by u/chmaynard
epistasis · a year ago
Solar and batteries got cheaper when we scaled up and built a lot. You have to pay current prices to get the next price drop, because it's all learning by doing.

If we had pushed harder in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s, solar might have gotten cheaper sooner. Solar fit in at the edges of the market as it grew: remote locations for power, or small scale settings where running a wire is inconvenient or impractical. The really big push that put solar over the edge was Germany's energiwende public policy that encouraged deploying a ton of solar in a country with exceptionally poor solar resources; but even with that promise of a market, massive scale up was guaranteed.

It's in many ways a collective action problem. Even in this thread, in 2025 you will see people wondering when we will have effective battery technology, because they have been misinformed for so long that batteries are ineffective that they don't see the evidence even in the linked article.

Also, most people do not understand technology learning curves, and how exponential growth changes things. Even in Silicon Valley, where the religion of the singularity is prevalent and where everyone is familiar with Moore's law, the propaganda against solar and batteries has been so strong that many do not realize the tech curves that solar and batteries enjoy.

A lot of this comes down to who has the money to spend on public influence too, which is largely the fossil fuel industry, who spends massive amounts on both politicians and in setting up a favorable information environment in the media. Solar and batteries are finally getting significant revenues, but they have been focused more on execution than on buying politics and buying media. They have benefited from environmental advocates that want to decarbonize, without a doubt, but that doesn't have the same effect as a very targeted media propaganda campaign that results in zealots that, whenever they see an article about climate change, call up their local paper and chew out the management with screaming. Much of the media is very afraid of right wing nuts on the matter and it puts a huge tilt on the coverage in the mass media in favor of fossil fuels and against climate science.

angleofrepose · a year ago
Indeed. You widen the conversation here, and remind me of the idea that moneyed influence is underrepresented in analysis and understanding of the world. Maybe the most appropriate way to understand big questions is who is funding the various players.

I like to think about "learn by doing". While I have of course lived it, I try to think of counterpoints. It seems clear that solar owes it's growth to Germany and California policies which subsidized the global solar industry with taxes on their economies, most disproportionately placed on individual ratepayers. But why couldn't solar research have been long-term funded based on it's fundamental value? Talk about national security, or geopolitical stability -- especially post 1970s! Skip the intermediate and expensive buildouts of the 2000s, failed companies heavily subsidized and fund research instead to hopefully bring the late 2010s forward in time?

What's a good model here, or concrete example? We see the same side of the history in electric vehicles. I think Tesla and Rivian, to pick two, both lost money on every sale in early years. Why not skip that expensive step in company history, and develop better products to sell at a profit from the beginning of mass manufacturing? Are there industries or technologies where this expensive/slow process went the other way?

angleofrepose commented on Understanding Solar Energy   construction-physics.com/... · Posted by u/chmaynard
mjamesaustin · a year ago
It's a false assumption that technological progress happens automatically or even that it's based upon the passage of time.

Progress happens as a result of many choices made by individuals to invest time and energy solving problems. Why is solar rapidly improving now? Because way more people are invested in making it better.

Nascent technologies almost always face an uphill battle because they compete against extremely optimized legacy technologies while themselves having no optimization at first. We only get to the current rapid period of growth because enough people pushed us through the early part of the S curve.

angleofrepose · a year ago
Sure, that makes sense. This is where I'm coming from with my interest in history:

I heard an interesting argument somewhere that solar cells are an ideal manufactured good. Whether you are building a module for a calculator or a GW scale plant, the modules are the same. This is fundamentally different for steam turbines. On the "concrete-internal combustion engine" spectrum of complexity, solar modules are closer to concrete and turbines are closer to ICEs.

Shouldn't this have led to a special interest in advancing solar module research? Or widespread understanding that eventually the unique set of attributes that define a solar module would lead to it's takeover of a significant portion of global energy generation? Shouldn't that have been apparent from the earliest days of photovoltaic research as a sort of philosophical truth before the advances in material science, extraction or manufacturing of the last fifty years?

angleofrepose commented on Understanding Solar Energy   construction-physics.com/... · Posted by u/chmaynard
philipkglass · a year ago
The article posted by wolfram74 is part one of two, covering solar PV history up through the early 1980s.

Here's part two of the series with more recent history: https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-did-solar-power-g...

Even this fairly long two-part discussion misses some of the more important technical developments of the past 20 years.

Converting trichlorosilane to pure silicon via CVD growth in Siemens-type reactors is now much more energy efficient due to changes in rod geometry and heat trapping via reactor design. A significant minority of purified silicon is now manufactured via even more efficient fluidized bed reactors.

The solar industry is dominated by Czochralski process monocrystalline silicon, but it's now continuous Czochralski: multiple crystals grown from a single crucible, recharging the molten silicon over time; the traditional process used a crucible once and then discarded it.

The dominant silicon material has switched from boron doped p-type silicon to gallium doped p-type silicon (mentioned by pfdietz) to phosphorus doped n-type silicon (used by the currently dominant TOPCon cell technology as well as heterojunction (HJT) cells and most back contact cells).

Changes in wafering that you mentioned (like the reduced kerf diamond wire saw) have reduced silicon consumption per wafer and therefore per watt, even holding cell technology constant.

The dominant cell technology has moved from Al-BSF to PERC to mono-PERC to TOPCon. Heterojunction and back-contact cells are not yet dominant, but they are manufactured on a multi-gigawatt scale and will probably overtake TOPCon eventually. Each one of these changes has eked out more light conversion efficiency from the same area of silicon.

Cells mostly still use screen-printed contacts made from conductive silver pastes, much like 20 years ago, but there has been continuous evolution of the geometry and composition of applied pastes so that silver consumption per watt is now much lower than it used to be. This is important because silver has the highest cost per kilogram of any material in a typical solar panel, and it's the bottleneck material for plans to expand manufacturing past the terawatt scale.

Wafer, cell, and module manufacturing have become much more automated. That reduced labor costs, increased throughput, and increased uniformity.

angleofrepose · a year ago
Thank you and other commenters for the great rundowns here. I'm interested in a related question and I wonder if you or others could point me in the right direction: why was the mainstream consensus around solar power (and/or batteries) apparently so wrong for so long? More specifically -- and maybe a better question -- why didn't progress in solar and batteries happen sooner?

I'm less interested in blame than in a systems analysis of how in the last half century powerful players seem to have missed the opportunity to start earlier investment in solar and battery technology. Solar and batteries are unique in energy infrastructure, as even any casual observer knows by now, and is certain to change many aspects of politics, industry and culture. It seems an inevitability that energy infrastructure will evolve from large complex components towards small and simple components, and I'm interested in engaging with the history of why "now" is the moment, rather than decades ago.

angleofrepose commented on Sioyek is a PDF viewer with a focus on textbooks and research papers   github.com/ahrm/sioyek... · Posted by u/simonpure
felipefar · 2 years ago
I've been working on having my notes better integrated with the content I read. I try to gather references to where an idea is developed/contradicted in the literature, or just collect good ideas.

Cahier (https://getcahier.com), the software I'm developing, supports creating cards with references to passages in the PDFs read.

It's exciting to see the developments that are being made in this area in the past few years.

angleofrepose · 2 years ago
Could you expand on what you see as exciting developments? I’ll have to check out the op post link as well as yours and others in the thread.

It’s been a few years since I seriously looked at options for my personal use, but I remember being quite disappointed in the options I found. Zotero and org-noter seemed two of the best (though in completely different ways) pieces of software I could find regarding reading or organizing pdfs. I trialed OneNote for a year and liked it in the moment, but zero support for navigation or discovery or review of information make it untenable for building a knowledge base or doing literature review.

I imagine that software which makes reading and connecting document information (in any form: pdf, html, video or other) could be so much better than what I use daily.

angleofrepose commented on A proposal to add signals to JavaScript   github.com/proposal-signa... · Posted by u/beeman
hoten · 2 years ago
angleofrepose · 2 years ago
A great resource that I should have found on my own. Thank you. I’ll look through this later. Giving it a quick glance now I see some of the same language I see other places; here that macros are “too far.”

I don’t know why macros are approached with apprehension. As I briefly get at in my first comment, I’m aware of a lot of dismissals of macros as a tool, but those dismissals don’t make sense to me in context. I’m missing some backstory or critical mind-share tipping points in the history of the concept.

What could be a good set of sources to understand the background perspective with which TC39 members approach the concept of macros?

angleofrepose commented on A proposal to add signals to JavaScript   github.com/proposal-signa... · Posted by u/beeman
angleofrepose · 2 years ago
Off topic, but I’m wondering if anyone attracted to this topic could help me understand why JavaScript doesn’t have macros.

I’m aware of much conversation around dismissing macros, often in the context of bad dev experience — but this sounds like a shallow dismissal to me.

At the end of the day, we have some of the results of macros in the JavaScript ecosystem, but rather than being supported by the language they are kicked out to transpilers and compilers.

Can anyone point me to authoritative sources discussing macros in JavaScript? I have a hard time finding deep and earnest discussion around macros by searching myself.

angleofrepose commented on The Elements of Dynamic Symmetry (1919) [pdf]   archive.org/details/bwb_O... · Posted by u/marttt
angleofrepose · 2 years ago
I picked this up at a used bookstore a while back for a dollar or two, and enjoy flipping through it from time to time. There’s something deeply satisfying about the quantity and density of the graphics in the book, and the visual simplicity of the prints.

Why do you post it here? What do you think about the book?

angleofrepose commented on Natto.dev – A Canvas for JavaScript   natto.dev... · Posted by u/stigi
ikurei · 5 years ago
Would you mind sharing other interesting examples of projects in this vein? Thanks!
angleofrepose · 5 years ago
The future of coding link in the parent has a large list of similarly spirited projects. I have scattered lists of similar projects but none handy or packaged well. I'll point you to the Ink&Switch article on end user programming. https://www.inkandswitch.com/end-user-programming.html And encourage you to check out personal sites of the people involved. The lively kernel is a programming kit project that's been around in various incarnations for a long time. https://lively-next.org/ The history of Eve (also linked by that future of coding page) is rich and full of references to other projects http://witheve.com/ VPRI similarly is a gateway to lots of history on personal computing http://www.vpri.org/ of particular interest to me there is the graphical language Nile and the meta compiler Ohm. http://worrydream.com/ Bret Victor's site is another gateway you may have heard of, and the researchers at Dynamicland are also well worth exploring. More future of coding resources https://github.com/d-cook/SomethingNew

For more actual environments you can use I recommend https://observablehq.com/, https://starboard.gg/ and emacs along with the links above.

u/angleofrepose

KarmaCake day298January 17, 2018View Original