amval (u/amval) - Readit News

amval commented on Reflections on 2 years of CPython's JIT Compiler fidget-spinner.github.io/... · Posted by u/bratao

jerf · 2 months ago

I was active in the Python community in the 200x timeframe, and I daresay the common consensus is that language didn't matter and a sufficiently smart compiler/JIT/whatever would eventually make dynamic scripting languages as fast as C, so there was no reason to learn static languages rather than just waiting for this to happen.

It was not universal. But it was very common and at least plausibly a majority view, so this idea wasn't just some tiny minority view either.

I consider this idea falsified now, pending someone actually coming up with a JIT/compiler/whatever that achieves this goal. We've poured millions upon millions of dollars into the task and the scripting languages still are not as fast as C or static languages in general. These millions were not wasted; there were real speedups worth having, even if they are somewhat hard on RAM. But they have clearly plateaued well below "C speed" and there is currently no realistic chance of that happening anytime soon.

Some people still have not noticed that the idea has been falsified and I even occasionally run into someone who thinks Javascript actually is as fast as C in general usage. But it's not and it's not going to be.

amval · 2 months ago

> I was active in the Python community in the 200x timeframe, and I daresay the common consensus is that language didn't matter and a sufficiently smart compiler/JIT/whatever would eventually make dynamic scripting languages as fast as C, so there was no reason to learn static languages rather than just waiting for this to happen.

To be very pedantic, the problem is not that these are dynamic languages _per se_, but that they were designed with semantics unconcerned with performance. As such, retrofitting performance can be extremely challenging.

As a counterexample of fast and dynamic: https://julialang.org/ (of course, you pay the prize in other places)

I agree with your comment overall, though.

amval commented on Python can run Mojo now koaning.io/posts/giving-m... · Posted by u/cantdutchthis

Staross · 2 months ago

Funny how the already weak case for not working on Julia instead of creating a new language is becoming even more flimsy :

FAQ:

> Why not make Julia better? > We think Julia is a great language and it has a wonderful community, but Mojo is completely different. While Julia and Mojo might share some goals and look similar as an easy-to-use and high-performance alternative to Python, we’re taking a completely different approach to building Mojo. Notably, Mojo is Python-first and doesn't require existing Python developers to learn a new syntax.

https://docs.modular.com/mojo/faq/#why-not-make-julia-better

Now :

>We oversold Mojo as a Python superset too early and realized that we should focus on what Mojo can do for people TODAY, not what it will grow into. As such, we currently explain Mojo as a language that's great for making stuff go fast on CPUs and GPUs.

amval · 2 months ago

Even funnier: https://github.com/tensorflow/swift/blob/main/docs/WhySwiftF...

> Julia: Julia is another great language with an open and active community. They are currently investing in machine learning techniques, and even have good interoperability with Python APIs.

amval commented on Python can run Mojo now koaning.io/posts/giving-m... · Posted by u/cantdutchthis

fnands · 2 months ago

They've backed off a little from the Python superset claims and leaned more into "Python family".

> I'd argue that I am not sure what kind of Python programmer is capable of learning things like comptime, borrow checking

One who previously wrote compiled languages ;-). It's not like you forget everything you know once you touch Python.

amval · 2 months ago

The second part of the sentence is very important ;)

"... but would struggle with different looking syntax"

amval commented on Python can run Mojo now koaning.io/posts/giving-m... · Posted by u/cantdutchthis

Certhas · 2 months ago

I think it was pretty clear immediately that running python code was a far away goal. There was a lot more talk about lifetimes and ownership semantics than details about Python interop. Mojo is more like: Can we take the learnings of Swift and Rust and solve the usability and compile time issues, while building on MLIR to target arbitrary architectures efficiently (and call it a Python superset to raise VC money).

That said, the upside is huge. If they can get to a point where Python programmers that need to add speed learn Mojo, because it feels more familiar and interops more easily, rather than C/CPP that would be huge. And it's a much lower bar than superset of python.

amval · 2 months ago

It marketed itself explicitly as a "Python superset", which could allow Python programmers to avoid learning a second language and write performant code.

I'd argue that I am not sure what kind of Python programmer is capable of learning things like comptime, borrow checking, generics but would struggle with different looking syntax. So to me this seemed like a deliberate misrepresentation of the actual challenges to generate hype and marketing.

Which fair enough, I suppose this is how things work. But it should be _fair_ to point out the obvious too.

amval commented on Python can run Mojo now koaning.io/posts/giving-m... · Posted by u/cantdutchthis

amval · 2 months ago

For a language that announced itself (and raised a lot of money on the premise of) claiming to be "a Python superset", this does not sound like a huge achievement.

In all fairness, their website now reads: "Mojo is a pythonic language for blazing-fast CPU+GPU execution without CUDA. Optionally use it with MAX for insanely fast AI inference."

So I suppose now is just a compiled language with superficially similar syntax and completely different semantics to Python?

amval commented on Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal bbc.com/news/live/c9wpq8x... · Posted by u/lleims

amval · 4 months ago

Ah, yes. The dubious and evil Perro Sánchez.

amval commented on Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal bbc.com/news/live/c9wpq8x... · Posted by u/lleims

amval · 4 months ago

Apparently this spans more countries? Very strange. Possibly a cyberattack or sabotage?

Growing up in Spain I've never experienced anything like this (not there at the moment, but friends have told me over WhatsApp).

amval commented on Ex-Facebook director's new book paints brutal image of Mark Zuckerberg sfgate.com/tech/article/e... · Posted by u/AntiRush

raverbashing · 6 months ago

> The other way is of an employee who has seen how her boss treats employees, and believes that her position, career, and livelihood would be in jeopardy if she wasn't working even in situations where no one should be expected to be working.

Honestly, they need to grow a pair

This kind of pressure (might) have worked for me if I was just out of university and such. But with experience you get to learn your boundaries

You're a top-level executive and you're afraid of being let go by such a silly thing? They can't wait 2 or 3 days for "top level bullet points"? Seems like they depend on you more than you depend on them

amval · 6 months ago

Big companies tend to develop cult dynamics. This is not an exaggeration, but a consequence of how humans tend to operate in large amounts. And I'd wager that in the case of Silicon Valley tech companies, this is also something that they embrace and nurture. I don't think this is a controversial take at all, and rather obvious.

She was probably not "afraid of being let go" (fired), but had convinced herself that it was of the utmost importance to have this level of committment. The book probably reads similar to those books of someone who leaves their church or cult.

amval commented on Julia and JuliaHub: Advancing Innovation and Growth info.juliahub.com/blog/ju... · Posted by u/xgdgsc

joshlk · 7 months ago

According to Stackoverflow trends, Julia’s popularity is decreasing and very small

https://trends.stackoverflow.co/?tags=julia

amval · 7 months ago

That's mostly because Julia questions get answered on its Discourse or Slack. The sharp decline is due to an automatic cross-post bot that stopped working.

No one bothered fixing it, in great part due to Discourse being the main place of discussion, as far as I know.

amval commented on Why am I writing a JavaScript toolchain in Zig? injuly.in/blog/announcing... · Posted by u/signa11

nox101 · 9 months ago

Personally I hate tooling for one language written in another. I hate python used to generate C++. I hate go used to generate C++ or JavaScript. Every added language adds more knowledge needed to contribute.

For every 1000 JS developers and every 1000 Zig developers there are 25 that know both. Only those developers can modify the system.

Further, you double the dependencies. JS pulls in library to do X that requires 50 dependencies, Zig pulls in a library to do X that requires 50 dependencies.

You also have 2 toolchains to maintain.

And you have 2 dev environments to maintain. Get all your editors/IDEs to understand both language. Get double your checkers, double your testing, etc etc.

You effectively increase the tech debt exponentially.

amval · 9 months ago

I think it ultimately is a sign of the need for better languages. Of course, there are always engineering compromises. But I think a better world is possible, in which we don't have massive software projects written in JavaScript or Python.