agust (u/agust) - Readit News

agust commented on Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December open-web-advocacy.org/blo... · Posted by u/mtomweb

jeroenhd · 7 months ago

AFAIK the main reason is that only the EU+UK cared about these rules and their market share is too small for companies like Google or Mozilla to invest into.

Because of the way the App Store works, browser engines segregated by region need to be two different apps. That means maintaining two source trees (EU+UK+JP vs worldwide) and two releases with two reviews.

I expect niche browsers to have a go at porting to iOS at some point (I'd love to see a project like Ladybird be the first non-Safari browser on the app store!) but for the major companies it seems like too much of a hassle at the moment.

agust · 7 months ago

Yeah that's why the bigger the market they can reach with a version using their own engine, the more likely they are to invest into doing it.

Now the question is what's the threshold for this market to be big enough? Maybe Japan's joining in pushes it past that point.

agust commented on Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December open-web-advocacy.org/blo... · Posted by u/mtomweb

immibis · 7 months ago

I thought it was because Apple still put so many roadblocks in the way of browser developers that nobody was able to pass them.

agust · 7 months ago

Yeah other reasons I've heard of include the obligation to adopt iOS-specific APIs for features like scrolling and text inputs; developing a separate app for these markets and therefore loosing their existing userbase; and signing a pretty crazy contract, among other things.

But the bigger the market they can reach, the bigger the reward, and so at some point it may justify investing resources to work around those roadblocks and accept the drawbacks.

agust commented on Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December open-web-advocacy.org/blo... · Posted by u/mtomweb

agust · 7 months ago

So after the EU and the UK, Japan is now putting an end to Apple's iOS alternative browser engine ban too.

Those are 3 large jurisdictions, I wonder if that's now a market big enough for Chrome and Firefox to invest into iOS versions of their browser that use Blink and Gecko under the hood. From what I heard this was one of the main reasons they haven't done it yet.

agust commented on Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA open-web-advocacy.org/blo... · Posted by u/yashghelani

rgovostes · 8 months ago

So these web apps will prompt the user to install and configure a third-party browser engine?

agust · 8 months ago

The likely outcome of alternate, capable browser engines coming to iOS will be to push Apple to invest in Safari so it can compete with them and not loose all of its market share.

Otherwise, yes it's likely web apps will prompt their user to use a browser with a capable engine on iOS if they exist. Nothing to configure, install and use.

Users will then be able to use capable web apps that take up a tenth of the storage of native apps, that are cheaper and portable across platforms — among many other benefits.

agust commented on Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA open-web-advocacy.org/blo... · Posted by u/yashghelani

pmkary · 8 months ago

I wonder why they should make iOS specific engines. To be honest only two things come to my mind: Shortcuts Integration and WebExtensions. Currently Orion is trying to bring extensions but I think there is a lot to be done for that to be considered operational and if that proves to work, then only remains Shortcuts which only lets you inject JS, or say get the content of a page from a "Safari" web page (while I think every webview is basically a Safari page).

That brings me to this: Chrome extensions are valuable and we know as early as the rumors of Apple being forced to open up, Google started working on iOS port, but really, is there any justification for bringing a browser engine to iOS? I really don't understand how will it be beneficial when the user probably will notice anything.

Also we only have like four players to enter: Google (which will come), Mozilla (broke and miss-managed as hell), GNOME Web (will never come), Ladybug Browser (they are crazy and will definitely come someday, but it takes a long time for them to be an actual player)

So my question is: Will all this effort even fruit?

agust · 8 months ago

Browser engines define the capabilities of web apps and websites. When they don't support APIs or have bugs, they impact negatively web software.

Apple's WebKit is renowned to be lagging behind, refusing to implement crucial features and being rigged with bugs, hence limiting the capabilities and quality of web apps, and effectively preventing them to compete with native apps.

Getting other browser engines on iOS would be beneficial for developers, businesses and end user by making mobile web apps viable.

agust commented on Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA open-web-advocacy.org/blo... · Posted by u/yashghelani

oblio · 8 months ago

> As long as people in the US can't test their web app on "firefox for iOS" without first buying a plane ticket to the EU and getting an EU sim card, all eu-only browser engines on iOS will be second-class citizens.

VM is EU. Heck, it can be an ephemeral instance on EC2, so it would only cost money while in use, probably tens of cents or something.

If there's a will, there's a way.

agust · 8 months ago

Testing mobile interactions such as scrolling and swiping, as well as animations' performance cannot be done through a VM.

Only real devices allow to test these aspects properly.

agust commented on Apple vs the Law formularsumo.co.uk/blog/2... · Posted by u/tempodox

jeroenhd · 8 months ago

Mobile web apps were what Apple wanted developers to use, but they weren't new, let alone invented by Apple.

agust · 8 months ago

I didn't say Apple invented mobile web apps. I said Apple invented the ability to install mobile web apps on device.

I'm not 100% sure no other mobile OS allowed this before to be honest, but I'm pretty iOS is the one that popularized it.

agust commented on Apple vs the Law formularsumo.co.uk/blog/2... · Posted by u/tempodox

Someone · 8 months ago

I don’t think that’s true. Apple said web sites were the way to add functionality to the first iPhone, but “can be installed on device”?

Jobs framed it that way, but IIRC, all you could do is create bookmarks. Creating an icon on the Home Screen? Impossible. Reliably storing data on-device? Impossible. Backing up your on-device data? Impossible. Accessing your on-device contacts, photos? Impossible.

Also, Jobs made a vision statement about web apps in June 2007, but Apple announced a SDK only four months later (in October 2007) and shipped it in March 2008.

⇒ I’m fairly sure he knew about that SDK when he made that statement.

agust · 8 months ago

The ability to install web apps that open as standalone apps, and not in Safari, was introduced by Apple with iOS 2.1 in 2008. Well before this ability was added to Android.

Apple invented installable mobile web apps.

Link about the needed metatag: https://www.mobilejoomla.com/forum/4-feature-requests/330-ip...

Steve Jobs introducing web apps as the way to develop apps for the iPhone in 2007: https://williamkennedy.ninja/apple/2024/01/30/steve-jobs-int...

agust commented on Apple vs the Law formularsumo.co.uk/blog/2... · Posted by u/tempodox

jeroenhd · 8 months ago

While I hate Apple's anti-consumer practices as much as anyone, the PWA platform is a system set up by Google first and foremost. Take-up has been limited outside of Google Chrome. I wouldn't say Apple's PWA approach is necessarily an example of Apple's fuckery.

This wouldn't be much of an issue, of course, if Chrome would just run on iOS like it does on any other OS, so Google can implement PWAs themselves.

agust · 8 months ago

Mobile web apps that can be installed on device were invented by Apple.

This was the way developers were supposed to develop apps for the iPhone when it was released, before Apple introduced the App Store.

agust commented on Let's unite the startup ecosystem in Europe with a standardized ‘EU Inc' eu-inc.org/... · Posted by u/samwillis

nabla9 · a year ago

>pan-european ‘EU Inc' corporate structure is essential for European startups.

It's not. Even in the US there is lots of variation between states. Delaware company exists for a reason.

EU is already so harmonized that startups can shop for best corporate structure and law, just like they do in the US and run their business smoothly. Estonia, Netherlands, Ireland, Luxembourg, Sweden, ... pick your favorite. What makes EU more difficult as common market is more different business cultures, languages, and markets. That's not something EU can change from the top.

agust · a year ago

> "EU is already so harmonized that startups can shop for best corporate structure and law, just like they do in the US and run their business smoothly."

It's not harmonized at all, it's fully fragmented.

You can't hire someone working from another EU country. You can't raise capital across the EU. You have many different rules, regulations, taxes, etc depending on the state.