Readit News logoReadit News
ChrisLomont commented on Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes   en.chessbase.com/post/is-... · Posted by u/doener
SilverBirch · 3 years ago
It's not that the statistics are wrong, it's that you can't apply statistics to prove this at all. Specifically because the person you're analyzing knows all about chess. They know that a super strong weird move will just expose them, so instead they're going to pick lines that just slightly increase their strength. This is like the statistical analyses that show election rigging by highlighting a statistically improbable distribution of results - that analysis works if the person rigging the election doesn't consider the statistical analysis when they're doing their cheating, it is completely avoidable if you cheat competently.

Which brings us back to a sort of basic question - if this guy is cheating, do we think he's doing it fairly competently or not? If he's not cheating, the statistics will show normal play, if he is cheating and he's fairly competent the statistics will show normal play. So what has this analysis done? It's proved that he's not totally incompetent, which we already knew because he's pretty well established as a good chess player even he isn't truly a 2700ELO.

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>it's that you can't apply statistics to prove this at all

If there are not statistical differences, then there are no performance differences. Cheating by definition should imply performance differences.

If he is cheating, then at some point in the future, if that method becomes detectable and he has to stop, then his play will suddenly suffer, which would be more evidence.

Claiming that statistics cannot answer this question with statistics is not true. It may be hard, or the current sample too small, but claiming stats is not usable is a misunderstanding of statistics.

>This is like the statistical analyses that show election rigging by highlighting a statistically improbable distribution of results

This only works on the public, and is not what professional statisticians that analyze elections do.

And even here, if the event is rare enough, say 1 part in quadrillions, and the analysis is correct, then yes, we would certainly conclude there was rigging.

All human knowledge is statistical. Things we claim to be true are only statistically true to large odds, so even for election rigging, if the stats reach some level of certainty, then it is completely valid proof that would hold in court.

The pop idiocy of election rigging claims has never risen to that level.

>it is completely avoidable if you cheat competently

No, it is not. It may only lower the signal to noise ratio, but there is still detectable differences. If you continually improve the statistics and are forced to lower the signal, eventually the signal would be so low as to not affect the system, which in this case is chess games.

Physics, for example, can tease events out of on the order of 1 part in trillions and demonstrate signal. Plenty of other things do the same.

ChrisLomont commented on Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes   en.chessbase.com/post/is-... · Posted by u/doener
thedstrat · 3 years ago
Agreed. The analyses based solely on a comparison of average centipawn loss is so so flawed. It only takes using an engine move once or twice to completely demolish a much better opponent in a game. These types of analyses don't find this type of cheating.

A much better analysis imo would be trying to find the probability of someone at his ELO finding surprising moves. EG I played a 1900 online recently who happened to completely turn around a game by setting up a forced mate in 6, with several branching moves a few moves down which all happened to result in mate because of incredibly lucky piece positions. I can't calculate the probability of someone at a relatively low level like that finding such a move, but I bet it's very low. This is the type of analysis which I'm guessing Magnus is using to assess Niemann as a cheater.

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>It only takes using an engine move once or twice to completely demolish a much better opponent in a game.

That's not true. Pick an engine, set to a few hundred points above your strength, then try to beat it using only one or two moves from an engine. You will lose nearly every game, because so many of your other moves will be so below the other player that the 1-2 good moves cannot make it up.

This is demonstrated quite often by the games where GMs are "helped" by others in multi-player games, and it shows that help against a much better opponent takes far more than 1-2 moves.

Among really close players it helps. But not once you get a few 100 ELO points apart.

ChrisLomont commented on Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes   en.chessbase.com/post/is-... · Posted by u/doener
throw7 · 3 years ago
You either have evidence or you don't. This quasi economic modeling of chess players is ridiculous. He says his models don't know anything about playing chess. OK, let's apply your models to all sorts of areas where we suspect fraudulent play.

This chess drama is corrosive. Speculation from day 1 starting with carlsen.

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>You either have evidence or you don't. This quasi economic modeling of chess players is ridiculous

Modeling provides the best evidence in all aspects of life (design, science, invention, marketing, medicine, ....). All human knowledge is built in modeling and statistical evidence. Nothing is 100% certain except mathematics, and even that is often fuzzier than 100%.

So how is modeling yet another thing ridiculous when it provides empirically the best methods in so many other domains?

ChrisLomont commented on Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes   en.chessbase.com/post/is-... · Posted by u/doener
SilverBirch · 3 years ago
I honestly wish that people wouldn't put out rubbish analysis like this.

>his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating.

No. His conclusion is that based on this really weird brute force statistical analysis there is no statistical indicator that he cheated.

Firstly, how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd. You know he has a previous record of cheating so as a starting point that statement is absurd. But secondly and more importantly, no one is suggesting that Neimann is a moron. We're not saying he's a 1200 ELO lucking out against a grand master. Any account of Neimann cheating is going to include the fact that he's already a very good chess player - he's not going to be cheating through his matches with any average player. And as other GMs have pointed out, cheating could literally involve 1 advantageous decision at a key point in a match.

What we have here is very simple. Neimann was quasi-accused of cheating in 1 match, and this genius has gone off and analysed thousands of other matches and come to the conclusion that there's no statistical evidence of cheating. A methodology that is basically designed to ensure almost no one could ever be proven to be cheating using this method.

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>this really weird brute force statistical analysis

Care to explain why you call the method "really weird"? Is there a flaw in the statistics that you can correct?

Here's [1] his publications - all well cited, his h-index is good, and I find no refutation of complaints in the literature about his methods. He seems quite competent in this area.

>how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd

If cheating does not show up in performance then is it cheating? If there is any performance gain then it should show up at some statistical level.

[1] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=8nk9k5oAAAAJ&hl=en...

SideQuark commented on Since mid-April, the Fed has withdrawn ~$140B of liquidity from financial system   fred.stlouisfed.org/graph... · Posted by u/cs702
slowhand09 · 3 years ago
Uh no. Oil and gas supply went down due to presidential mandates. Biden's “pause” on federal oil and gas leasing and drilling permits. And any new permits that might be approved on public lands had royalties increased from 12.5% to 18.75%. A 6.25% increase on production.
SideQuark · 3 years ago
You can look at oil prices when the war started and see the jump. There was no such jump at any announcement of Biden. The evidence is clear and easily checked.
ChrisLomont commented on Subprime loans for college hiding in plain sight   nytimes.com/2022/09/17/yo... · Posted by u/lxm
phkahler · 3 years ago
>> Making the loans shorter will make monthly payments scale up, making mortgages less affordable for people.

Pay attention when you get a mortgage. It goes like this:

1) what is your monthly income?

2) what are your monthly expenses?

3) calculate: this is how much we think you can afford to pay per month

4) back calculate: this is how much we will approve you to borrow.

5) Typical money available determines house prices.

The key here is that #4 means housing prices are hugely influenced by interest rates, and also the length of the loan. Housing as a percent of income is actually fairly constant because they'll everyone wants to get you for as much as they can, but the bank balances that against risk of default so there is a limit.

That's my rant. Reducing the length will cause people to build equity faster and will reduce volatility and the dangers of things like interest rate hikes.

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>Pay attention when you get a mortgage.

I've done quite a bit of modeling for predictive house pricing and investment questions, so I am very aware of how mortgages, math, and housing markets worth. As far back as around 2001 I was writing pricing algorithms for companies that needed it (look at my resume), and I've done a lot since then. So I'm pretty clear on how they work.

>5) Typical money available determines house prices.

No, house prices are indifferent to what one buyer can afford; they are determined by the entire market of buyers AND sellers. If a seller doesn't want to sell at price X, they will not. If a buyer doesn't want to pay Y, they will not. If a buyer cannot afford price Z, they cannot buy that house.

After your step 4, the buyer knows how much they can afford, and looks at houses already at that price.

>Reducing the length will cause people to build equity faster and will reduce volatility and the dangers of things like interest rate hikes

Over 85% of mortgages are fixed interest rates, so interest rate hikes are not that much of a problem. People can use them to their advantage if they understand the pros and cons, but the vast majority will never be affected.

People have a fixed amount of monthly income they can use to pay a mortgage, so the amount they can borrow is completely predicated on that - their ability to make payments. If they are forced to get short loans, they will only be able to buy lower priced houses, and will miss out on traditional housing stock growth. A 100k investment returns half what a 200k investment does.

Also, many people will be priced out of mortgages completely since cutting loan lengths in half roughly cuts affordable house prices in half.

Finally, even if one can afford monthly payments on a 15 year mortgage, it's still better economically to get a 30 year mortgage and make the payments as if you had a 15 year, except only pay the minimal amount on the actual mortgage and pay the rest into an investment. After 15 years, you will be better off in almost all cases (check the math, last time I poked at it I would be $60k on a $300k house doing this).

As to reducing volatility, if you can just afford a 15 year mortgage for a given house, then you are at more risk since you're not saving cash (as investments) for problems. If you instead turn that into a 30 year, cutting your payments down, and save the excess, you will have cash you can use in case of problems. So this is another benefit to getting a longer loan - you can truly make yourself more resistant to problems and volatility.

A third factor is fixed rate mortgages means the cost of your mortgage goes down over the length of time due to inflation: your income goes up, your mortgage goes down. Inflation gives benefits to borrowers (mortgage holders included) at the cost to lenders (banks).

So, if you check the math, buying a bigger house (up to the limit of what you can spend) and getting a longer term loan historically has resulted in more, not less equity. Model it out and check the math yourself.

ChrisLomont commented on Why do married men make 44% more than single men?   econlib.org/archives/2012... · Posted by u/kvee
basicplus2 · 3 years ago
Or.. why do women marry/stay-married to men making more money..
ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
The article covers that.
ChrisLomont commented on Subprime loans for college hiding in plain sight   nytimes.com/2022/09/17/yo... · Posted by u/lxm
endisneigh · 3 years ago
main issue with education is that the cost of education is not commiserate with the income potential. for those looking just to learn for learnings sake, there's community college.

for the majority who do it for income reasons, ideally it would be designed to not take you more than say, 8 years to pay off, given the median income for the major and area.

this alone would resolve most of the issues. there is value in someone majoring in English. issue is the median English major, given their inclinations are unlikely to make as much as the median, say, Economics major, in a given area.

these disparities would ideally and should be reflected in the cost.

the result would be:

1. when you apply to college you should apply to a major and that should be part of your application

2. different majors should cost different amounts of money

3. acceptance rates should differ based on major

4. classes of different types should cost different amounts of money beyond some gratuity (say, 8 classes).

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>ideally it would be designed to not take you more than say, 8 years to pay off

Making minimum payments always increases the length. How do you define your pay off?

For the record [1], in recent years around 58% of bachelor's degree holders incurred debt, with the median at $23,000. If you want to pay over 8 years this is around $3k per year, which should be completely doable for anyone with a bachelors degree over an 8 year span (over 8 years the average person will make far more per year than starting wages).

[1] https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/average-student-loan-d...

ChrisLomont commented on Subprime loans for college hiding in plain sight   nytimes.com/2022/09/17/yo... · Posted by u/lxm
phkahler · 3 years ago
Mortgages should not be allowed longer than 15 years, maybe 10.
ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
Making the loans shorter will make monthly payments scale up, making mortgages less affordable for people.
ChrisLomont commented on Subprime loans for college hiding in plain sight   nytimes.com/2022/09/17/yo... · Posted by u/lxm
treeman79 · 3 years ago
Allow bankruptcy for college loans. Don’t use tax payer money for loans.

Colleges will become affordable again.

ChrisLomont · 3 years ago
>Allow bankruptcy for college loans.

Making loans higher interest to handle increased risk, making it even harder for someone to pay for college.

u/ChrisLomont

KarmaCake day1771December 1, 2014View Original