> Ada Lovelace was coding in a time when few men did
Really? Even such an obtuse statement indicates a complete ignorance of what she did weakening further any point they have to make. Not helped by the fact they have not indicated the IT interests and acomplishments of the girl whom is the subject of the article. Some of the worst (Male) employees we have ever hired as developers had either 1st class BEng or even PhD level qualifications. Degree programs in IT in the UK are approaching worthless for the most part.
This article is infuriating, a complete abomination and demonstrative of everything which is wrong with the approach to girls in technology. The topic is now approaching a level of dullness that makes me wonder if anything will ever change.
Issues with the articles assume external factors actively opressing the abilities of girls. Abilities cannot be suppressed. They can only fail to exploit them in the light of other social roadblocks. There is no indication of any understanding in the article as to why girls don't pursue jobs in STEM. There is an inferrence that a patriarchy is responsible and is actively seeking their exclusion. Applications of statistics in this area fail to illuminate but at all any useful causal link. The reason being polical correctness refuses people\
who might be willing to propose logical reasons for the gap an audience due to the refusal to listen to what is perceived as mysogeny.
How many women are there in other industries who have to, on a daily basis, do highly competative problem solving. There are plenty in Science and Humanities PhD positions. How does that differ from seeking actively problem solving roles in IT?
"Applications of statistics in this area fail to illuminate but at all any useful causal link." - if you're relying on statistics to show things in this area you're missing the complexity of the situation which a more interpretative account may be able to find meaning in. Statistics is not the be all and end all.
You may be bored/fed up/whatever by it but many women (and men) in tech aren't - and nor should we be. It's a highly socially constructed issue that is endemic in our society and not present in others. If you think it's about suppressing ability then you obviously have absolutely no idea about the challenges of getting women into tech.
if you're relying on statistics to show things in this area you're missing the complexity of the situation which a more interpretative account may be able to find meaning in. Statistics is not the be all and end all.
Sounds a lot like "that A/B test didn't give the results I wanted so lets try again with a higher p-value cutoff and fewer controls."
> Mrs Lovelace was coding in an age when even few men were
It's even better than that. Ada was coding before there were COMPUTERS.
Also see Bret Victor's rant on creating the future:
"In 1968 — three years before the invention of the microprocessor — Alan Kay stumbled across Don Bitzer's early flat-panel display. Its resolution was 16 pixels by 16 pixels — an impressive improvement over their earlier 4 pixel by 4 pixel display. Alan saw those 256 glowing orange squares, and he went home, and he picked up a pen, and he drew a picture of a goddamn iPad."
http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesi...
I'm a woman and a programmer. I don't know why they aren't more female programmers. Going through school up through high school, I always had the impression that of my fellow classmates, the girls were the best in class. Pre-calculus was the highest math course my dinky high school offered, and there were a couple girls in there with me out of maybe eight students total. It was only when I came to college that I started seeing way more men in my CS and math classes, and lost the impression that guys were just apathetic about school. The only girls in my classes were Indian or Asian, and there weren't many of them. One other white girl I knew told me she went into CS because she thought that was the right field for becoming a secretary. I've never had problems with guys harassing me because of my interests or jobs, for which I suppose I'm fortunate. I wish I knew why there were so few women in my college CS classes, and why I rarely meet other female programmers in my town now.
The title is actually Why tech needs a makeover to attract girls but the article doesn't say why. Technology is at the forefront of the economy and women have a vital role to play feels rather empty.
And while I'm sure Brazil and India can offer insights and be on the forefront of improving policies, those are not really very enticing models to emulate. Let's be honest, women in India work in IT to get ahead because India is poor.
"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."
Hipsters are living the dream. Most people don't want to slave away at the keyboard.
Engineers and doctors are held in high esteem by Indians (not to mention a lot of other Asians) so no, the women in India do not 'work in IT to get ahead because India is poor'
The simple answer to why is to increase the labour supply to decrease wages. Programming jobs are some of the highest paid jobs that employees can find right now, and people are looking to correct that. This is the heart of the matter.
The sightly more complex answer to why women (or girls) are singled out specifically is that in a male dominated field we can assume that the best males, who have any interest in working in said field, are already working in the industry. Attracting more males simply reduces the quality of the supply. When women are a virtually untapped market, you can attempt to bring in the best women, thus increasing the numbers without affecting the quality of the supply.
I am actually of the opinion that as the software industry matures, and in particular as the open source software industry matures, women will find that operating in the industry as a free agent is an ideal situation.
In short, I think the market is a much larger problem than anything else. It will happen, though.
And perhaps over on the "nursing news" website they are actually doing this. We're in tech. Let's sort our own back yards out before pointing fingers at others'.
It wasnt my intention to point fingers at others, it was to point to the thread article that the problem is more widespread and thus general than for the tech industry, and any good solution must be founded with such an analasis in mind that is applicable for all.
The article has the answer of why women aren't in tech fields:
Choosing computer science is an unnecessarily tough choice and one you aren't going to make unless you are one of the stubborn girls like I was
Women in western countries have a lot of life choices that don't include working at an office job. The article talks about IT tracks conflicting with drama tracks... I was thinking "wtf?". If you have drama as one of the main reason for going to school, then you're not really worried about having to earn a living some day. Must be nice.
For men, getting a career to earn a living is what's beaten into you from a very young age. I chose IT as a study and a career because it intersected with the sets of "things that can earn me a decent living" and "things that interest me".
The article goes on to say that the solution is to do more advocacy to encourage women to get into STEM; but that does nothing to really address the root cause... as though it could or should.
"If you have drama as one of the main reason for going to school, then you're not really worried about having to earn a living some day. Must be nice."
Readit News
> Ada Lovelace was coding in a time when few men did
Really? Even such an obtuse statement indicates a complete ignorance of what she did weakening further any point they have to make. Not helped by the fact they have not indicated the IT interests and acomplishments of the girl whom is the subject of the article. Some of the worst (Male) employees we have ever hired as developers had either 1st class BEng or even PhD level qualifications. Degree programs in IT in the UK are approaching worthless for the most part.
This article is infuriating, a complete abomination and demonstrative of everything which is wrong with the approach to girls in technology. The topic is now approaching a level of dullness that makes me wonder if anything will ever change.
Issues with the articles assume external factors actively opressing the abilities of girls. Abilities cannot be suppressed. They can only fail to exploit them in the light of other social roadblocks. There is no indication of any understanding in the article as to why girls don't pursue jobs in STEM. There is an inferrence that a patriarchy is responsible and is actively seeking their exclusion. Applications of statistics in this area fail to illuminate but at all any useful causal link. The reason being polical correctness refuses people\ who might be willing to propose logical reasons for the gap an audience due to the refusal to listen to what is perceived as mysogeny.
How many women are there in other industries who have to, on a daily basis, do highly competative problem solving. There are plenty in Science and Humanities PhD positions. How does that differ from seeking actively problem solving roles in IT?
I'm so fed up with the whole thing.
Deleted Comment
You may be bored/fed up/whatever by it but many women (and men) in tech aren't - and nor should we be. It's a highly socially constructed issue that is endemic in our society and not present in others. If you think it's about suppressing ability then you obviously have absolutely no idea about the challenges of getting women into tech.
Sounds a lot like "that A/B test didn't give the results I wanted so lets try again with a higher p-value cutoff and fewer controls."
It's even better than that. Ada was coding before there were COMPUTERS.
Also see Bret Victor's rant on creating the future: "In 1968 — three years before the invention of the microprocessor — Alan Kay stumbled across Don Bitzer's early flat-panel display. Its resolution was 16 pixels by 16 pixels — an impressive improvement over their earlier 4 pixel by 4 pixel display. Alan saw those 256 glowing orange squares, and he went home, and he picked up a pen, and he drew a picture of a goddamn iPad." http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesi...
She was first. coder. ever.
And while I'm sure Brazil and India can offer insights and be on the forefront of improving policies, those are not really very enticing models to emulate. Let's be honest, women in India work in IT to get ahead because India is poor.
"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."
Hipsters are living the dream. Most people don't want to slave away at the keyboard.
The sightly more complex answer to why women (or girls) are singled out specifically is that in a male dominated field we can assume that the best males, who have any interest in working in said field, are already working in the industry. Attracting more males simply reduces the quality of the supply. When women are a virtually untapped market, you can attempt to bring in the best women, thus increasing the numbers without affecting the quality of the supply.
In short, I think the market is a much larger problem than anything else. It will happen, though.
These issues go hand in hand, they are the same.
In my opinion it is bad taste to focus only on the tech industry. Go all in or go home.
Deleted Comment
Choosing computer science is an unnecessarily tough choice and one you aren't going to make unless you are one of the stubborn girls like I was
Women in western countries have a lot of life choices that don't include working at an office job. The article talks about IT tracks conflicting with drama tracks... I was thinking "wtf?". If you have drama as one of the main reason for going to school, then you're not really worried about having to earn a living some day. Must be nice.
For men, getting a career to earn a living is what's beaten into you from a very young age. I chose IT as a study and a career because it intersected with the sets of "things that can earn me a decent living" and "things that interest me".
The article goes on to say that the solution is to do more advocacy to encourage women to get into STEM; but that does nothing to really address the root cause... as though it could or should.
Bingo