“They are often a last resort for parents struggling with children with behavioral problems, suicidal thoughts, and substance abuse issues. Depending on the state, these rehab centers—a multi-billion-dollar industry—have few regulations, and there are no overarching federal standards governing them. Many are faith-based facilities designed to convert teens into born-again Christians and are therefore exempt from regulation in some states.”
If anybody wants to read a comic with the perspective of someone that went through one of these places and spent the years after fighting against them, I stumbled upon this one a few years ago: https://elan.school/
I am not in any way affiliated with the author, it's just one of the few books with real content that I've read in a long time.
I had no idea about Elan School. The comic is absolutely amazing and I've just spent the last several hours reading the first half of it. Absolutely amazing and hard to just imagine the horrific physical and psychological abuse that occurred at this "school."
This is horrifying. "There oughtta be a law" is my first reaction... What a useless thought. This is one of those examples of "the details matter". "Tough love", or "tough on crime", or other such empty utterances are useful only to give catharsis to a subset of people, and always the subset who are not subject to this torture. Society needs ritual sacrifice, I guess... How depressing. If the details are made obvious, I suspect meant would think twice about such treatment.
What epic creation, I probably couldn't stomach reading or viewing this material in any other format.
This is the original programming. You might visualize it complete with a bug tracker, version control, patches, feature updates and programming languages. We can only see it when absurd enough but it gets much more absurd than this and the software may run for thousands of years.
I remember reading and seeing videos about training child soldiers. The weak or injured ones were killed as hunting targets and the more they killed the higher their rank. In the final ceremony that completes the training they had to shoot their parents. It was a great honor and they truly enjoyed it.
We have to remember death is nowhere near the worse punishment. It might be the nicest thing on the list.
Perhaps it is even worse if people don't notice they are in a similar program because it has been refined to such extend.
Imagine if you left the house without clothing. Like a default human, like any other species, or if you like, how god put you on this earth.
Or say, who decided you must use language? Not just that, you must say the correct things at the correct time.
If you get the dress code wrong, fail to speak or construct the wrong sentences well conditioned people from all over the world will come to beat you back in line.
We force the little ones to sit on designed to be uncomfortable chairs the whole day, the entire week. They must sit, not move, shut up and listen.
Someone once "rescued" a small child living on a garbage heap. Gave him foster parents and put him in school. The kid escaped, he went back to playing in the garbage. When asked why he said he wanted to play with his friends. With a look on his face as if he was talking to a crazy person. It was obvious he didn't want to sit, shut up and not move.... forever?
Seems to me we have many bug reports to fill and that patches are welcome. Our cult is far from perfect.
Meanwhile, we have a crisis in the U.S. of people sleeping and dying in the streets because we shut down all the mental hospitals and involuntary commitment. Every system will have some percentage of adverse outcomes. Approaching the issue emotionally instead of dispassionately and with a view towards typical outcomes is an anti-social and dangerous approach.
... I mean, on what are you basing this assumption? Mass psychiatric institutionalisation has been phased out pretty much everywhere at this point; if your thesis is correct, how do you explain differing rates of homelessness (and in particular unsheltered homelessness, where the US more or less leads the developed world) between the US and other developed countries? Like, it seems more likely to be some other factor.
Ireland, for instance, had the highest rate of psychiatric institutionalisation in the western world in the 60s (some Warsaw Pact countries were likely higher). It was rapidly phased out in the 80s and early 90s. Homelessness (though a persistent problem since the 19th century) remained rather low until the early tens, then rose rapidly. I've never heard of anyone attributing this to the mental hospitals closing 30 years previously (this seems to be a uniquely American belief); it is generally attributed largely to _shortages of housing_ (itself due to the near-total collapse of the construction industry for a decade after the financial crisis).
You seem to believe that these are adverse, uncommon, and unintended outcomes rather than part of the machinery of the troubled teen industry, the school-to-prison pipeline, poverty, and capitalist/protestant propaganda in general. Involuntary commitment would be a threat and weapon in the current political environment, as in the thread OP where the same was used in Francoist Spain.
Perhaps you should investigate your own biases and emotions toward the people chewed up and spit out by society before calling out a comment as "emotional" and "anti-social".
Yesterday a popular post here advocated that your kids finding porn means you are guilty of 'neglect.' That's a serious criminal charge and accusation. People will take drastic steps to avoid prison.
Natural result of that is catch-22, parent can't actually stop teenage kids from such activity except through what amounts to torture. As always either way, the parent is damned.
Sounds like either someone with very young kids or else someone with a dismissive/naive parenting style. For kids born since the mid-80s “hiding the porn” has been a lot harder than locking magazines in a closet. It’s not a matter of if, but when. And however you feel about porn, it’s infinitely more important to help your kids feel safe talking to you about it than to try and prevent them ever seeing it. Kids who don’t feel safe or tolerated will lie almost 100% of the time, at which point you can no longer help them. I say this as someone whose parents would rather have believed I wasn’t watching porn and therefore didn’t make the effort to normalize talking about sex at all. My wife and I do limit our kids’ access to the Internet quite a bit, but we aren’t naive to the fact that they’ll all see something at some point either.
What happened? And please, make sure to demonstrate your position empirically, specifically drawing a causal relationship between shutting down torturous mental institutions and whatever outcome you think that has.
"Soon, Mariona joined her new friends on "raids": a few of them would block off a street, throw Molotov cocktails, hand out leaflets, and when the police turned up, scatter in every direction."
okay she threw molotov cocktails, she was lucky she wasn't imprisoned.
I find this a profoundly odd response to the story. Is your intent to excuse her abusive treatment by the religious, medical, and government authorities of a totalitarian regime?
Your comment is treating her with full agency (i.e. "she shouldn't have done anything bad or disruptive") and completely ignoring the agency of the institutions that harmed her (i.e. "what did she expect in response?").
A) She was still a child.
B) She was imprisoned, repeatedly, and tortured, as the article discusses.
C) Is it your opinion that everyone was "lucky" to live in 1968 Spain under Franco. Or just her?
Please don't call a 17-year old person a child. It's not as if on the night between 17 years, 11 months and 30 days, and 18 years humans undergo some sort of metamorphosis.
As someone who takes insulin every single day and lives in mild fear of an overdose, the idea that it was once used to intentionally induce hypoglycemic comas as an “psychiatric treatment” is a terrifying concept to me.
Was there ever a relatively peaceful and prosperous period in Europe for a non elite average person? Maybe only the 1990s and only in France, (Western) Germany, Spain, Italy, and Switzerland?
I'm not going to comment on the words chosen by BBC to portray the case - I think there are a lot of other better entries on HN where BBC bias (or the lack of it) can be discussed.
But I see a lot of comments here about what Fanquismo was and wasn't, and I believe it comes out of ignorance about Spanish history. Many comments here make it look like this was a choice between Franquismo/Fascism and personal freedom and democracy. It wasn't. It was a brutal struggle between Fascists and Communists, and good people that wanted freedom were caught in the middle right since the beginning. The choice wasn't between Fascism or Democracy, the choice was just between two major evils: Fascism or Communism and that's why it divided Spanish society
It can be argued that when this happened (1968), the bloody and brutal Spanish Civil War (that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections, BTW) was long over and the country should already be way on the path to democracy (and I agree if that was the point being made), but let's not pretend that she joined good company and proper people that just wanted to liberate Spain.
People commenting here really need to read about the Spanish Civil War to understand how it went down. Communists were so destructive that in the middle of the war, they started fighting and killing each other instead of fighting against the Fascist forces. Major atrocities were committed on both sides. POWs were routinely rounded up and executed, both by the Communists and by the Fascists.
The only group that seemed to have some sense when it came to defend basic humanity were the anarchists (although they did have a lot of other issues). Read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell for a beautiful and sad description of a small part of this conflict.
"that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections"
This is simply false. The Spanish Civil War started in 1936 with Franco's fascist coup against a democratically elected government. Check your own ignorance before accusing others.
As you might understand (or avoid to). Franco didn't wake up one day and decided to start a civil war out of nowhere. In the period of 1933-1936, there was major violence against the legitimately elected Right-Wing government from Marxist groups that adopted a revolutionary approach to take power in Spain:
"The defeat in the elections and its consequences led to disenchantment with parliamentarism and radicalization within the Socialists. The increasing militancy within the Socialist workers was followed by Francisco Largo Caballero's adopting a revolutionary Marxist rhetoric which justified revolutionism as a way to combat rising fascism, uncharacteristic of European social democratic mainstream and the reformist traditions of the PSOE.[69] The CNT adopted a similar rhetoric in the wake of the elections, threatening with a revolution if "Fascist tendencies" would win the elections.[70] Open violence occurred in the streets of Spanish cities, and militancy continued to increase,[71] reflecting a movement towards radical upheaval, rather than peaceful means as solutions.[72] A small insurrection by anarchists occurred in December 1933 in response to CEDA's victory, in which around 100 people died.[73]
[...]
Fairly well armed revolutionaries managed to take the whole province of Asturias, murdering numerous policemen, clergymen and civilians, destroying religious buildings including churches, convents and part of the university at Oviedo.[75] Rebels in the occupied areas proclaimed revolution for the workers and abolished the existing currency.[76] The uprising was crushed in two weeks by the Spanish Navy and the Spanish Republican Army, the latter using mainly Moorish colonial troops from Spanish Morocco."
Anybody imagining themselves as alive during the Franco regime and not considering throwing a Molotov cocktail or two doesn't believe in freedom, equality, or democracy. It's disturbing to see how many fascists seem to comment on Hacker News. Begone, you contemptible Francoists!
Kind of on brand for this site these days, tbh. A brand of anti social that believes disruption done for anything but monetary gain deserves extreme punishment, regardless of circumstance.
You’re reading people, like myself, who are upset with the articles framing, because it has created a causal link between the reasonable concern that a parent would have with a child engaging in political violence, with the result of a corrupt reformatory program.
Yes, being raped and given electro-shock treatment IS BAD. It’s also very much not what her parents signed her up for by turning her into a reformatory.
Nobody here is defending a fascist regime. We’re just complaining about horrible editorializing.
I don't know why you're surprised. This place is primarily about making money.
Businesses are set up like tiny little fascist dictatorships. They are always trying to pay less taxes, evade regulations, layoff workers, monopolize, destroy competitors etc. They don't know anything about the public sphere, or common good, or government, or democracy, or rule of law etc. They suck at that, it goes against all their training and instincts.
You're not wrong about the strong emphasis on money making and profitability in HN comments (it was started as much as a forum for startup or wannabe startup founders as a tech forum), but it's also had a significant libertarian (little-l) streak. It's kind of hard to square that libertarianism with the apparent support of Franco's regime seen in the comments here today.
Readit News
https://time.com/6997172/teen-torture-max-abuse-documentary/
“They are often a last resort for parents struggling with children with behavioral problems, suicidal thoughts, and substance abuse issues. Depending on the state, these rehab centers—a multi-billion-dollar industry—have few regulations, and there are no overarching federal standards governing them. Many are faith-based facilities designed to convert teens into born-again Christians and are therefore exempt from regulation in some states.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn-About_Ranch
https://helpingsurvivors.org/troubled-teen-programs/turn-abo...
I am not in any way affiliated with the author, it's just one of the few books with real content that I've read in a long time.
This is the original programming. You might visualize it complete with a bug tracker, version control, patches, feature updates and programming languages. We can only see it when absurd enough but it gets much more absurd than this and the software may run for thousands of years.
I remember reading and seeing videos about training child soldiers. The weak or injured ones were killed as hunting targets and the more they killed the higher their rank. In the final ceremony that completes the training they had to shoot their parents. It was a great honor and they truly enjoyed it.
We have to remember death is nowhere near the worse punishment. It might be the nicest thing on the list.
Perhaps it is even worse if people don't notice they are in a similar program because it has been refined to such extend.
Imagine if you left the house without clothing. Like a default human, like any other species, or if you like, how god put you on this earth.
Or say, who decided you must use language? Not just that, you must say the correct things at the correct time.
If you get the dress code wrong, fail to speak or construct the wrong sentences well conditioned people from all over the world will come to beat you back in line.
We force the little ones to sit on designed to be uncomfortable chairs the whole day, the entire week. They must sit, not move, shut up and listen.
Someone once "rescued" a small child living on a garbage heap. Gave him foster parents and put him in school. The kid escaped, he went back to playing in the garbage. When asked why he said he wanted to play with his friends. With a look on his face as if he was talking to a crazy person. It was obvious he didn't want to sit, shut up and not move.... forever?
Seems to me we have many bug reports to fill and that patches are welcome. Our cult is far from perfect.
Ireland, for instance, had the highest rate of psychiatric institutionalisation in the western world in the 60s (some Warsaw Pact countries were likely higher). It was rapidly phased out in the 80s and early 90s. Homelessness (though a persistent problem since the 19th century) remained rather low until the early tens, then rose rapidly. I've never heard of anyone attributing this to the mental hospitals closing 30 years previously (this seems to be a uniquely American belief); it is generally attributed largely to _shortages of housing_ (itself due to the near-total collapse of the construction industry for a decade after the financial crisis).
Dead Comment
You seem to believe that these are adverse, uncommon, and unintended outcomes rather than part of the machinery of the troubled teen industry, the school-to-prison pipeline, poverty, and capitalist/protestant propaganda in general. Involuntary commitment would be a threat and weapon in the current political environment, as in the thread OP where the same was used in Francoist Spain.
Perhaps you should investigate your own biases and emotions toward the people chewed up and spit out by society before calling out a comment as "emotional" and "anti-social".
Natural result of that is catch-22, parent can't actually stop teenage kids from such activity except through what amounts to torture. As always either way, the parent is damned.
she was lucky she wasn't imprisoned or executed
Edit: clarification
Deleted Comment
Dead Comment
Deleted Comment
okay she threw molotov cocktails, she was lucky she wasn't imprisoned.
Your comment is treating her with full agency (i.e. "she shouldn't have done anything bad or disruptive") and completely ignoring the agency of the institutions that harmed her (i.e. "what did she expect in response?").
Please don't call a 17-year old person a child. It's not as if on the night between 17 years, 11 months and 30 days, and 18 years humans undergo some sort of metamorphosis.
Throwing Molotov cocktail is trivially an criminal offense. OP is making it clear that framing it as she was a “free spirit” is ridiculous.
But I see a lot of comments here about what Fanquismo was and wasn't, and I believe it comes out of ignorance about Spanish history. Many comments here make it look like this was a choice between Franquismo/Fascism and personal freedom and democracy. It wasn't. It was a brutal struggle between Fascists and Communists, and good people that wanted freedom were caught in the middle right since the beginning. The choice wasn't between Fascism or Democracy, the choice was just between two major evils: Fascism or Communism and that's why it divided Spanish society
It can be argued that when this happened (1968), the bloody and brutal Spanish Civil War (that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections, BTW) was long over and the country should already be way on the path to democracy (and I agree if that was the point being made), but let's not pretend that she joined good company and proper people that just wanted to liberate Spain.
People commenting here really need to read about the Spanish Civil War to understand how it went down. Communists were so destructive that in the middle of the war, they started fighting and killing each other instead of fighting against the Fascist forces. Major atrocities were committed on both sides. POWs were routinely rounded up and executed, both by the Communists and by the Fascists.
The only group that seemed to have some sense when it came to defend basic humanity were the anarchists (although they did have a lot of other issues). Read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell for a beautiful and sad description of a small part of this conflict.
There's this old 6 episodes TV Series from 1983, that really gives a good perspective of how awful it all was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_I6C-VbFvI
Playlist of the miniseries from the same channel:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxZAPogJjW_h2JbgYOgO3GZiI...
The Spanish Civil War (1983)
https://imdb.com/title/tt1718608/
This is simply false. The Spanish Civil War started in 1936 with Franco's fascist coup against a democratically elected government. Check your own ignorance before accusing others.
"The defeat in the elections and its consequences led to disenchantment with parliamentarism and radicalization within the Socialists. The increasing militancy within the Socialist workers was followed by Francisco Largo Caballero's adopting a revolutionary Marxist rhetoric which justified revolutionism as a way to combat rising fascism, uncharacteristic of European social democratic mainstream and the reformist traditions of the PSOE.[69] The CNT adopted a similar rhetoric in the wake of the elections, threatening with a revolution if "Fascist tendencies" would win the elections.[70] Open violence occurred in the streets of Spanish cities, and militancy continued to increase,[71] reflecting a movement towards radical upheaval, rather than peaceful means as solutions.[72] A small insurrection by anarchists occurred in December 1933 in response to CEDA's victory, in which around 100 people died.[73]
[...]
Fairly well armed revolutionaries managed to take the whole province of Asturias, murdering numerous policemen, clergymen and civilians, destroying religious buildings including churches, convents and part of the university at Oviedo.[75] Rebels in the occupied areas proclaimed revolution for the workers and abolished the existing currency.[76] The uprising was crushed in two weeks by the Spanish Navy and the Spanish Republican Army, the latter using mainly Moorish colonial troops from Spanish Morocco."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War
Ah yes, good old "it hurts me more than it hurts you".
people supporting a totalitarian fascist regime, blaming the victim...
"Shouldn't fight against the regime, violence is bad mmmkay"... "she threw molotov cocktails, she deserved it"...
what is happening, i feel like i'm taking crazy pills
Yes, being raped and given electro-shock treatment IS BAD. It’s also very much not what her parents signed her up for by turning her into a reformatory.
Nobody here is defending a fascist regime. We’re just complaining about horrible editorializing.
Edit: these downvotes… SMH
Businesses are set up like tiny little fascist dictatorships. They are always trying to pay less taxes, evade regulations, layoff workers, monopolize, destroy competitors etc. They don't know anything about the public sphere, or common good, or government, or democracy, or rule of law etc. They suck at that, it goes against all their training and instincts.