I love this so much, as someone who tends to listen to a single piece of music on repeat (especially while coding) and has spent a lot of time with Yo-Yo Ma's "Six Evolutions".
Loved learning about the deep diversity of recordings from other artists, the ambiguous history of the music, and that there's a question if the music was even originally written for a cello!
Also loved that the site recommends different recordings based on the mood of interpretation.
This all reminds me of the HN favorite, "Reality has a lot of detail." Feel like I just discovered fractal complexity in a piece of music I naively thought I knew well.
Different renderings of classical pieces can be night-and-day difference. There are some pieces that have been worn grey from over exposure and then you hear that one special version and it's like it is a completely new piece all over again.
Now just imagine you lived during the romantic period of music where the virtuoso's highly personal interpretation of the piece was not only encouraged - it was downright expected.
Even today where the printed note is considered sacrosanct - you'll still find that artists are able to inject quite a bit of their own personality into a piece.
Great example is the Well-Tempered Clavier as performed by Glenn Gould versus Sviatoslav Richter.
My year in review music roundups from Spotify or Apple Music have always been totally useless because I code to Steve Reich's Music for 18 Musicians almost daily. Something about that composition just gets me in the zone and I've been using it to study or work to since I first heard it in college 20+ years ago.
The Bach Cello Suites are deservedly famous, but if you are looking to branch out to other solo cello music I recommend listening to Zoltan Kodály's Sonata for Unaccompanied Cello. After the Bach Cello Suites it is probably the most important piece in the solo cello repertoire. One of the unusual features of the piece is that it calls for the bottom two strings to be tuned down half a step which gives the cello a darker timbre.
When tuning down those two strings, would the player need to "relearn" the positions of fingers on the strings when playing? Or would they play at the same positions and ignore the conflict in expected and actual sound?
The linkage between hand position and visual location on the staff is so hard to relearn for someone that only plays one instrument that the music is written so that notes to be played on the B string (the C tuned down) and the F# string (the G tuned down) are written with incorrect pitches.
That is, an actual D# played on the actual B string is written as an E on the staff.
It's weird to learn the Kodaly this way, but the piece is hard enough that, at least in my case, I basically have to memorize it to have a fighting chance. I still haven't performed it for a real concert after 20 years of thinking about doing so.
This also creates some ambiguities, since you can play many notes on either the F# string or the D string. But context is enough to tell what Kodaly meant.
Relatedly, the fifth Bach suite is also written for an alternate tuning ("scordatura"), with the same "wrong note" approach to notation (at least in modern editions). The A string is tuned down to a G, giving you beautifully transformed resonances for the key of C minor.
The music is notated as if there had been no detuning so that you can use the natural finger positions. (For example, a note that is notated as a C would actually sound as a B.) The trade-off is that it makes some of the intervals look wrong, but you do get used to it.
Bach's 5th cello suite also uses this technique where the A string is tuned down to a G. (The technical term is "scordatura.")
Hey, Joe! This is one of my favorite cello pieces -- so hauntingly beautiful. I've probably listened to Janos Starker's performance dozens of times, but I also liked Inbal Segev's version. Parts of it seemed brighter somehow.
My understanding is that for centuries after Bach's death, they were disregarded. They were seen almost as etudes, for cellists to use for practice to hone their technique. They didn't really gain their current status as respectable concert pieces until Pablo Casals dug them up in the early 20th century and produced his classic recordings.
> My understanding is that for centuries after Bach's death, they were disregarded.
Not exactly.
Bach died in 1750. At this time the "market" for music was going through big changes. In Bach's time the main customers for music were courts of barons and kings and municipalities. That's the career he had, a musikmeister.
But look deeper and you'll see an economic landscape changing: the rise of cities, merchants, financial capitalism, etc. A bourgeoisie was rising and consuming music in concert rooms, opera houses and for private playing. But this bourgeoisie had different tastes. They didn't have a deep musical instruction so they preferred more "pop" music: easy to listen, easy to play, easy to follow. Bach's music is the opposite of it. It was out of fashion.
Bach's sons followed this simplified style. Most of all, Carl Philip Emanuel Bach was big into it. He got so good at this that he became an instructor and mentor to both Mozart and Haydn.
But Carl never stopped adoring his father music and used Johan Sebastian Bach (his dad) material for teaching. So J.S. Bach was widely known and venerated among musicians, including Beethoven.
However, the public recognition of Bach's worth only began when Mendelssohn made public presentations of his masses, in 1829. But this was 37 years before Pablo Casals was born.
Yeah, that mostly tracks with my understanding. But can both of our stories be true?
The initial obscurity of the cello suites was part of the larger disregarding of Bach's work, in the shift from baroque to classical style. But did the "re-"regarding of the cello suites happen at the same time as Mendelssohn? Or did Mendelssohn only start the process, by rediscovering a few good pieces, while other pieces like the cello suites waited another ~hundred years?
As were the Partitas and Sonatas for unaccompanied violin. It wasn’t until the great 19th century violinist Joachim began playing them in recitals that they came to light again. Even then it was not widely accepted. I believe it may have been George Bernard Shaw who had pretty harsh words to say about the very idea of treating these works seriously. My daughter is preparing for her conservatory auditions; and these works are now compulsory literally everywhere!
Yes! The Gavotte en Rondeau from the 3rd Partita is probably my favorite Bach piece, beating out even the cello suites. Here's a lovely performance by Kavakos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNy9fH7VaV4
I play viola, and usually it's only the cello suites that are played on viola. But I fell in love with the sonatas and partitas. They're just incredible. The only one that I ever learned fully and performed was the second partita. Of course, on viola you have to play them down a 5th but they still work beautifully and sound great.
FYI, We just had world-class cellist Steuart Pincombe here in Austin last month performing the last three Bach cello concertos along with three matched brews from the excellent local Lazarus brewery as part of his occcasional "Bach and Beer" performances.
He's a flat amazing cellist, and watching him perform that last concerto you really realize how hard he's working to get it done - it's a workout. Anyway, it was a really good evening. (FWIW, this was part of the Arts On Alexander program this year, which is one of Austin's lesser known gems of amazing live classical music performaces.
IMO Rostropovich and Jian Wang[1] have the best recordings, two sides of the same coin. I never understand the hype of Yo-Yo Ma. And if you like Jian Wang, you would probably also like Viktoria Mullova's interpretation of Sonatas and Partitas
I can highly recommend the William Skeen recordings of the Cello Suites, recorded and released by one of the best classical labels: Reference Recordings. You get the historically informed sound and the absolute best sound quality in one package.
Oh, it's...very new! Thanks for the recommendation.
Another recommendation: the recordings by the multigenre saxophonist Yasuaki Shimizu. It's insane. I won't give anything away, but in particular set aside some time to listen to the Menuets & Gigue from the first suite without any distractions.
I'm a cellist, played all the suites and always start with them when I return to the instrument after a hiatus. They've been analyzed to death, so my goal when playing is to avoid over-intellectualizing ("learn the changes, then forget them") and just try to take a different emotional journey each time (no way to say that without it sounding sappy), physically leading with my breath.
I get sometimes a bit annoyed by hacker news. And then I get a reply from a cellist. Thank you for playing and making this world a bit better place, you made my day.
Wow, I had no idea about Yasuaki Shimizu. I listen to Kakashi a lot, and some of his other stuff like that. Thanks a ton.
edit: ow, a lot of reverb though... (though it says "(Ohya Stone Quarry, Utsunomiya)" so I guess it's natural) But It's nice to hear this, I sometimes try playing them on sax too (the Trent Kynaston version is best, supposedly).
Just listened to the first suite. The Menuet was soulful and haunting. The Gigue was fierce and fascinating in contrast to Yo Yo Ma’s. I felt a profound sense of “there’s not enough time left in life to fully appreciate this piece of music.” Thank you for sharing.
Readit News
Loved learning about the deep diversity of recordings from other artists, the ambiguous history of the music, and that there's a question if the music was even originally written for a cello!
Also loved that the site recommends different recordings based on the mood of interpretation.
This all reminds me of the HN favorite, "Reality has a lot of detail." Feel like I just discovered fractal complexity in a piece of music I naively thought I knew well.
Even today where the printed note is considered sacrosanct - you'll still find that artists are able to inject quite a bit of their own personality into a piece.
Great example is the Well-Tempered Clavier as performed by Glenn Gould versus Sviatoslav Richter.
8 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16184255
6 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22020495
2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38407851
They also have a YouTube channel [2]
[1] https://www.bachvereniging.nl/en/allofbach
[2] https://m.youtube.com/bach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phygv_Et9sQ
That is, an actual D# played on the actual B string is written as an E on the staff.
It's weird to learn the Kodaly this way, but the piece is hard enough that, at least in my case, I basically have to memorize it to have a fighting chance. I still haven't performed it for a real concert after 20 years of thinking about doing so.
This also creates some ambiguities, since you can play many notes on either the F# string or the D string. But context is enough to tell what Kodaly meant.
Relatedly, the fifth Bach suite is also written for an alternate tuning ("scordatura"), with the same "wrong note" approach to notation (at least in modern editions). The A string is tuned down to a G, giving you beautifully transformed resonances for the key of C minor.
Bach's 5th cello suite also uses this technique where the A string is tuned down to a G. (The technical term is "scordatura.")
My understanding is that for centuries after Bach's death, they were disregarded. They were seen almost as etudes, for cellists to use for practice to hone their technique. They didn't really gain their current status as respectable concert pieces until Pablo Casals dug them up in the early 20th century and produced his classic recordings.
Not exactly.
Bach died in 1750. At this time the "market" for music was going through big changes. In Bach's time the main customers for music were courts of barons and kings and municipalities. That's the career he had, a musikmeister.
But look deeper and you'll see an economic landscape changing: the rise of cities, merchants, financial capitalism, etc. A bourgeoisie was rising and consuming music in concert rooms, opera houses and for private playing. But this bourgeoisie had different tastes. They didn't have a deep musical instruction so they preferred more "pop" music: easy to listen, easy to play, easy to follow. Bach's music is the opposite of it. It was out of fashion.
Bach's sons followed this simplified style. Most of all, Carl Philip Emanuel Bach was big into it. He got so good at this that he became an instructor and mentor to both Mozart and Haydn.
But Carl never stopped adoring his father music and used Johan Sebastian Bach (his dad) material for teaching. So J.S. Bach was widely known and venerated among musicians, including Beethoven.
However, the public recognition of Bach's worth only began when Mendelssohn made public presentations of his masses, in 1829. But this was 37 years before Pablo Casals was born.
The initial obscurity of the cello suites was part of the larger disregarding of Bach's work, in the shift from baroque to classical style. But did the "re-"regarding of the cello suites happen at the same time as Mendelssohn? Or did Mendelssohn only start the process, by rediscovering a few good pieces, while other pieces like the cello suites waited another ~hundred years?
As were the Partitas and Sonatas for unaccompanied violin. It wasn’t until the great 19th century violinist Joachim began playing them in recitals that they came to light again. Even then it was not widely accepted. I believe it may have been George Bernard Shaw who had pretty harsh words to say about the very idea of treating these works seriously. My daughter is preparing for her conservatory auditions; and these works are now compulsory literally everywhere!
He's a flat amazing cellist, and watching him perform that last concerto you really realize how hard he's working to get it done - it's a workout. Anyway, it was a really good evening. (FWIW, this was part of the Arts On Alexander program this year, which is one of Austin's lesser known gems of amazing live classical music performaces.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCSqHFgSUhU&list=PL8Hi9pw3gE...
https://referencerecordings.com/recording/the-six-cello-suit...
Another recommendation: the recordings by the multigenre saxophonist Yasuaki Shimizu. It's insane. I won't give anything away, but in particular set aside some time to listen to the Menuets & Gigue from the first suite without any distractions.
https://yasuaki-shimizu.com/music/cello-suites-2/
I'm a cellist, played all the suites and always start with them when I return to the instrument after a hiatus. They've been analyzed to death, so my goal when playing is to avoid over-intellectualizing ("learn the changes, then forget them") and just try to take a different emotional journey each time (no way to say that without it sounding sappy), physically leading with my breath.
edit: ow, a lot of reverb though... (though it says "(Ohya Stone Quarry, Utsunomiya)" so I guess it's natural) But It's nice to hear this, I sometimes try playing them on sax too (the Trent Kynaston version is best, supposedly).
Another edit: the double stops are a nice touch!
He's the godfather of the Bach suites. All other recordings are derivative.
I would appreciate a breakdown of metal vs gut strings in the recordings.